hillsongs - the next installment
As the comments in two weeks have gone beyond 500 comments - here is the new thread..
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Recent entries
April 19th, 2006 at 2:47 am
Hi Lindisfarne: After several minutes of ranting and increasing pressure against my forehead, the pastor let out a line reminiscent of Muhammed Ali vs Henry Cooper (“why don’t you fall down”) … HaHaHa, i remember this sort of stuff. Stood behind my wife (then girlfriend, 1977) and helped her push back against “Ali” - i had been forewarned for they had tried to push me over first. Wife and I are small people but we shoved and pushed back and managed to stay on our feet. The preacher seemed rather perplexed at our refusal to comply; seemed to be of the opinion that we were “resisting God”. Wellll either we were resisting someone other than God … or God is not that strong - certainly no Henry Cooper. Of course, the Scripture does say if we resist the Devil he will flee from us … ummmm???
Your experience brings a comment by Lionfish to mind:
Lionfish wrote: “So who else will speak out against these Leaders and their teaching - if we don’t …?
DD … most people do not know any better.
And that breaks Lionfish’s heart. ” Ditto!
So many disheartened and brokenhearted and dispossessed and scattered, and nobody wants them (us) … unless of course they agree to tithe and double tithe and first fruit offer and make their leaders’ miracle come to pass. You know the story: God’s going to do a miracle; He’s going to give me a million dollars haha, and you know how He is going to this miracle, each one of you is going to give, give, give - you’re going to give all you have and then you are going to give MORE! … Hey, ime starting to get an idea here … please post your miracle offering to my bank account number: Sukker 111 Yes! Yes! … mite be time to go to bed James!
But seriously, so many have been scattered and others have even lost their faith as a direct result of the dishonesty (in all sorts of ways) of so called leaders. But let’s not be disheartened, the Scripture in so many places and in so many ways warns us to expect these shysters. Ezekiel 34 spells it out so well - also reveals God’s attitude to the exploiters!
April 19th, 2006 at 7:33 am
Hi James
Almost sounds like we attended the same church. Another part of the show was importing “special guests” from overseas. One in particular got under my skin, a “pastor” Leslie Keegal. This guy was most likely the person who gave John Edwards (”Crossing Over”) his start in life.
Same old story, he worked the room with “messages from God” that someone was in distress with a particular illness, He would run the standards (cancer, heart disease, diabetes) until he hit on one and then milked it for all he could. At the end of this exercise the congregation was requested to put in an extra “gift” to help the good pastor with his travelling expenses.
I was going to put up my hand for suffering migrains, but I didn’t have the heart to tell him he was the cause.
Yes James, I guess you can include me in one of those who have been “scattered”. I stopped attending churches last year after being involved in several ministries. As it was, when I really needed help, they weren’t there.
It’s had the effect of me now having little tolerance for the endless stream of nutters that come to my door ie Jehovah’s witnesses, Mormons, Hillsong, seventh day adventists and the like.
What I have learned however, is that the devil knows the scriptures very well and can take almost any given passage from the Bible and twist/distort its meaning. I have had prolonged scriptural arguments with the JW’s who in the end, went to my front gate and actually did the symbolic shaking the dust of their feet, before telling me where I would be spending eternity.
Same with the Mormons, they could not show one passage of the “book of mormon” which had its roots in biblical teaching. They said they would need to come back with an elder, I said don’t bother. They said they would pray that God would open my eyes, I said I would pray that God opened their eyes. Thankfully they haven’t come back.
April 19th, 2006 at 8:07 am
healing shysters in the church in aust… sounds like another topic for another string
a mate of mine was on the camera at hillsong years ago when BS (sorry ahh i mean BH!) got people out the front and healed them of diseases that they hadn’t got yet! (yes thank you for the healing of that cancer that you would have gotten otherwise!)
April 19th, 2006 at 8:27 am
Hi Lionfish, Wiggy Urban Monk and Katherine.
This website is pretty huge so I’m working my way backward with the more recent stuff and noted that you guys have at some time or another suffered disillusionment and depression.
Lionfish, I can certainly relate to your comments of 14 April about Easter. Easter and Xmas seem to depress me no end these days, perhaps I’m suffering from grumpy old man syndrome.
Whatever happened to Easter?, to the true observance/celebration of the most glorious and significant event in human history… it’s been hijacked that’s what.
In my pre alzheimers euphoria, I can recall a time not too far gone, when this country closed down on Good Friday and Easter Sunday ……… no pubs, clubs, TAB’s or even supermarkets traded on these days, there wasn’t even a newspaper printed on Good Friday. Not so now, where’s the respect for the Lord in our so called Christian country (oops, I’ve offended the Muslims). It’s the same story at Xmas, it’s depressing.
For those who were stuck at home and didn’t go to church, even television was business as usual, the morally uplifting Bold & Beautiful was on Friday as well as the football and on Sunday we had Ghost Whisperer and a shocker of a program on the ABC called “Who killed Christ?”.
The latter had the temerity to espouse the theory that Jesus had orchestrated his own death to prove a point. In days gone by, the networks at least “had a go” and scheduled reruns of the Hollywood version of the scriptures. In a way I suppose they still do, we still had Benny Hinn, the Hour of Power, Kenneth Copeland and Crefloe A. Dollar (you’ve gotta love that name).
In times of sadness or depression I tend to look at Psalms and Ecclesiastes, especially the latter (“It’s all hopeless, it’s like chasing the wind”). Now there’s a person who certainly sees the down side of life but, after working through what bugs him, can always see the light at the end of the tunnel that is there through God’s grace.
God’s grace is certainly sufficient to cover all the emotional and spiritual needs of those who trust in him.
God’s blessings to all.
Yours depressingly
Lidisfarne
April 19th, 2006 at 9:40 am
Yeah Lidisfarne.. I certainly resonate with your depression bro.
I did note that channel seven ( in melb) played the passion of the Christ after the first part in a two part miniseries of the Ten ciommandments. on sunday evening, you can see my depressive reflection of Ressurection Sunday at.. http://www.supermarketmonkey.blogspot.com
I work in a supermarket, and the only days we are closed for the year are Good friday and Christmas day. And in recent years, Easter Sunday as well. I think our culture is so based on economic prosperity that it cannot afford to take a day off fromgrinding the cogs of materialism and capitalism. Becuase everything is now based on “Consumer sentiment” the loss of any potential income generation makes us fly into a panic.
I aswell was subject to the “SLaying in the spirit” phenomenon. Sadly, it was when i was too young to make anything approaching informed choices. only 13.
Later in life when I returned to faith, I visited a few AOG churches in Melb and again was subjected to this at the encouragement of people that were discipling me. I never went down though. The person praying for me, was quite calm and compassionate in the way he guilted me out ov er it. Being practically the only person standing in a sea of chattering bodies.
April 19th, 2006 at 10:59 am
urban
i think that we’ve all been there and done that (or had it done to us) but as i read a few of the previous posts i think i see a problem with us…
what is the problem with us ??
yes stupid people in churches manipulate go off on tangents misinterpret control… etc etc and there is the temptation to withdraw from the church altogether (not necessarily unreasonable)
however some of the problem is in us … we are wrong when we expect people to be reasonable, theologically sound, caring etc. all these people are sinners and subject to their own sinful nature. we end up being hurt by our own expectations of others.
i learnt this lesson 11 years ago and since then every church i have been in i have expected to have the scriptures twisted, people try to manipulate me and use me etc… let me tell you it has been a liberating experience, i havent been dissappointed but more empowered by my discernment and have been calculating in picking my battles and never expected to win.
i am now in a small aog church that 3 yrs ago was on the fringes of the prosperity/healing/have faith and God will fix it doctrine. i have been patient, loyal, outspoken when i really knew i would be heard properly.. now people are really free to disagree with certain things they had a hard time swallowing and when Hillsong 2006 was being advertised the announcer said ‘if you want to go thats great but it certainly not for me’… and i was thinking ‘crap .. did i hear that right .. that guy just said he didn’t like HS from the front!!!’
the big differnce was my expectations though… i expected to get nothing, i expected to give what i could of the knowledge that i have… and i have not been hurt or dissapointed.
absenting yourself from a church ? you are depriving others of your experience… its not about what it is going to give you but what you are going to give it. there are people in there that need you now!
April 19th, 2006 at 11:09 am
I don’t like most of the slain in the spirit stuff I see. but I’m open to the possibility god may well use this sort of thing.
April 19th, 2006 at 11:49 am
could the devil use it? just a question…….
April 19th, 2006 at 11:57 am
Lindis, Ab, Umonk; love the humour amongst the truth.
Lindis: I was going to put up my hand for suffering migrains, but I didn’t have the heart to tell him he was the cause.
Ab: a mate of mine was on the camera at hillsong years ago when BS (sorry ahh i mean BH!) got people out the front and healed them of diseases that they hadn’t got yet!
Umonk: The person praying for me, was quite calm and compassionate in the way he GUILTED ME OUT OVER IT.
James: :)))))))) :)))))))
April 19th, 2006 at 12:27 pm
On scattered sheep.
I see there has been a bit of feedback on leaving the church scene. I appreciate the encouragement of Ab to seek out fellowship - a church where one can be free to speak. Not always easy to find. And others have been so burned and used and deceived etc that they just can’t bear the thort of “church”.
Ab: the big differnce was my expectations though… i expected to get nothing ..
I made a similar decision about 17 years ago Ab, and for a number of years it worked fine. I went to church to give thanks to God and to be available to Him - expecting nothing. I was quite OK too up until the time i believe He spoke to me specifically to leave; Come out and be separate.
It was not so hard for me as it has been for a lot of people tho. Sure, i went broke over the tithing thing - but God’s grace has been sufficient for us and He has provided for us far more than we deserve. Sure they stopped offering me ministry opportunities - but i never really much cared about that anyway (OK, did a lot-bit - but only because i thort more highly of myself than i should have).
Some people have been so badly hurt and abused and ripped off and betrayed they are simply incapable of bringing themselves to walk thru the door of a church. Many have open eyes and see the exploitation as the work of man and the devil - the leave the church scene but cling to the Lord. Still others, i fear, become spiritually bankrupt. … Bless and curse not … so … lets try:
May the shysters enjoy their trip to bottom of the ocean with the warm fuzzy millstone round their necks!
Lindisfarn, Urbanmonk, and any others who are scattered: Welcome to the Church of the Dispossessed!
April 19th, 2006 at 1:37 pm
“a mate of mine was on the camera at hillsong years ago when BS (sorry ahh i mean BH!) got people out the front and healed them of diseases that they hadn’t got yet! (yes thank you for the healing of that cancer that you would have gotten otherwise!)”
If only a pastor had prayed for Brian Houston, to prevent the early onset of dickheadedness.
April 19th, 2006 at 1:38 pm
AB
I can see your point about expecting too much. Basic human nature shows that it’s not possible for any of us to be reasonable, caring, unselfish etc all of the time. Such emotions are subject to a person’s capacity to deal with lifes everyday ups and downs and we all fall short of expectations at one time or other, pastors included.
I would however, expect that someone who has the very serious responsibility of bringing people to the Lord through the understanding of his word would be truthful and accurate in what they say. Perhaps some of the preachers are not entirely to blame, as I’ve heard stories of some pretty weird stuff being taught in some Bible colleges and the like. Some may even get so peeved with seeing their sermon go in one ear and out the other, they feel it necessary to take a bit of poetic license to make it interesting. But I still expect nothing less than the truth.
I’ve often questioned church leaders, but never in front of the congregation. The answers are mostly predictable ie “go away sonny, I’ve been doing this for thirty years”.
I recall the Apostle Paul saying we shouldn’t spend time quarrelling among ourselves or getting involved in long winded arguments. I guess I can see his point, as it becomes disruptive and divisive and, apart from not setting a good example for non believers (who are always ready to take the mickey out of us) not much would ever be accomplished.
As an example, one of a married couple in the last church I was involved in an “indiscretion”. To their credit, they sought advice from the pastor.
As they were both involved in ministries (church orchestra, Sunday school) the matter was brought before the church elders.
Arguments ensued as to whether either or both of them were fit to continue their respective ministries and scriptural quotes were flying thick and fast for both sides of the argument. Eventually they both ceased their ministries and unfortunately the congregation got wind of the incident which divided the whole church.
April 19th, 2006 at 2:37 pm
agreed lindisfarne (how do you shorten that?)
i have taken the approach of educating those who will let me on the basics of the Christian faith which are often lacking or is such a jumbled mess that they don’t see the incongruences in their belief systems. talking with people on the real first principles of theism and then going from there to the questioning what the logical conclusions entail and necessarily exclude.
eg.
God is in authority right?
right!
and He is sovereign right?
right!
and if i pray this prayer (say Jabez?) God WILL respond will He?
yeah!
so if i can for all intents and purposes command God to do something through my prayer, who is in authority?
Ohhhh Ummmm….
this is a shorthand example of what i do .. if it becomes heated i have always withdrawn, other times i have seen their eyes glaze over with that haze of ‘what the heck are you on about?’ and changed the subject as quick as possible.
Pauls longwinded caution i think more refers to pointless or marginal arguements. I am quite sure he would be happy to get longwinded on the issue of justification by Grace… I would love to read his epistle to the church at Hillsong… (tell em to castrate themselves Paul.. go on you good thing !! )
this is of course just to guide people towards a more orthodox theology and says nothing to the extreme example of outright abuse of authority etc which i am more than happy with people withdrawing etc
April 19th, 2006 at 5:49 pm
AB,
I tried the scholarly approach when as a young bloke, I went to Reunion Island (off Madagascar) to get married.
I was subjected to the local catholic priest’s version of the inquisition as to what I believed, why I would want to marry a local girl and why should he LET ME marry her and corrupt her with my heresies. It didn’t go down too well when I told him through an interpreter that in Australia we had such things as Catholic Clubs which encouraged drinking and gambling and he really should consider the abstract thought that my wife and I were geniunely in love and I was not a white slaver.
For the sake of brevity, LF for short is OK. Lindisfarne is the island where my grandmother’s family came from-it’s the only name I could think of at the time.
April 19th, 2006 at 8:43 pm
Lindisfarne … “LF” is already taken as an abbreviation…
April 19th, 2006 at 10:04 pm
how about Lindi
April 19th, 2006 at 10:20 pm
Sobering words Ab, Thanks for the encouragment James. the Church of the dispossessed indeed!
April 19th, 2006 at 10:44 pm
never been called sobering before… you obviously havent been to one of my NYE parties…….
April 19th, 2006 at 11:28 pm
I need to correct that last comment. as i was listening to the rain outside, I realised.. We are not the dispossessed. the disenfranchised, perhaps, but not the dispossessed..
Are you a piss head ab?
April 19th, 2006 at 11:32 pm
g’nite all
April 19th, 2006 at 11:36 pm
Nighty night Jimbob!
April 20th, 2006 at 6:52 am
Don’t know about Lindi, I’m confused enough without adding gender misnomers to the list.
Try LD, I’d probably shy away from the middle 3 letters of SFA.
April 20th, 2006 at 11:18 am
no not really… not now with one kid and one on the way
LD it is
April 20th, 2006 at 2:52 pm
Umonk, disenfranchised you say, … i was thinking dispossessed in terms of being marginalised, ostracised, and excluded … but, if i get your point as i thik it was intended,(?) No man can dispossess us, by exclusion, excommunication or other means, of the inheritance we have In Christ… looked at that way, Disenfranchised would seem a more accurate description than Dispossessed. That’s a good bit of reasoning! Just like to muse on it a bit more, in the mean time i’m happy with: The church of the disenfranchised.
April 20th, 2006 at 3:22 pm
I just meant it in terms of lifestyle realy. Ther are many people out there that dont even have the basic needs of life.. Fresh water, enough food, schooling for their kids etc… Its easy for me to complain, but I havent been asked to renounce my faith by anyone for fear of torture or imprisonment.. Just had my dignity trodden on a few too many times.. Thats why I prefer the term disenfranchised. Dispossessed.. People in Siera Leone, Kosovo, parts of south amenrica, they are the dispossessed..
April 20th, 2006 at 4:08 pm
I take your point; but what about some refugees from exploitive churches? While they may not be under direct physical threat, visualise for a moment their destitute souls, having been robbed of their hope in Christ - having been told, for instance, that if they sell their small home God will multiply it back to them 100 fold in this life, but now they find themselves on welfare and too depressed to get out of bed or believe in anything. For those that are well-founded in Christ, for those who are not easily manipulated, the exploitation by shysters may be painful but not destructive. In fact i am sure it fortifies some. But for the weak and vulnerable - who are of no less value than the “strong”- who now live in a spiritual wasteland; ime not sure, but i think i might prefer to physically dispossessed!
April 20th, 2006 at 4:53 pm
Shall anything separate us from the love of God in christ, Jimbob?
April 20th, 2006 at 11:03 pm
Jimbob eh? nite maryellen
April 20th, 2006 at 11:08 pm
It’s taken quite a while to go through a week’s worth of contributions to this website, I ‘ve felt many emotions and have (hesitantly) put forward some thoughts/feelings on a number of subjects that have been discussed.
I’ve had a particularly bad day at work today, one of the matters related to a bad experience with a former CCC elder who now needs help financially. It’s hard to seperate work and beliefs.
I guess many of us are sad/outraged/dissapointed with this world and fill ourselves with righteous indignation, but it’s a hard road.
It’s hard to thank God for the day he has given us, when often times it’s full of shit.
April 20th, 2006 at 11:20 pm
Lindi
“… a former CCC elder who now needs help …” Sounds rather ironic. May the Lord grant you a better day tomorrow.