Does God put a stop to bad things?
An interesting question has been posed in one of the hillsongs threads:
“Does God put a stop to bad things?”
It is a question that was made in the context of what some believe are bad teachings of prosperity theology etal.. but it it is wider question than that.
If the Church is doing bad things, if the people of God are being led astray by bad leaders - will God put a stop to it?
Discuss.
April 18th, 2006 at 8:37 pm
To burn or not to burn. “If any man’s work shall be burned … but he himself shall be saved”.
OK, let’s allow for the moment any interpretation for hades, geenna from the NT and Septuagint or sheol from OT Hebrew. Let it be figurative or literal - a grave or place to burn bodies or whatever; has something to do with being dead. Also, let’s allow fire, ‘pur’ to be interpreted figuratively; as indeed it needs to be in many passages, eg: James 5:3, tongue on fire.
Allowing these assumptions, we still see some sort of eternal (or at least for eons) suffering for those that Christ does not acknowledge as His.
Matt 25:41,46; Mark 9:44, 48 etc. These passages reveal an aeonic (age upon age) suffering. So whether or not the fire is literal - and wiggy has presented a rather compelling argument for the figurative, the point is, there does seem to be some form of ETERNAL (or at least age upon age; wonder if this is where the RC’s get purgatory from) PUNISHMENT!! Is this just? How can a loving God send people to Hell. I think there is a clue to this conundrum that can be discovered in Genesis.
In an earlier post, 175, it was argued that when we (mankind in Adam and Eve) chose to believe, trust and obey Satan rather God, we had our membership in the kingdom of God revoked and found ourselves with forced membership in the kingdom of Satan. Now look at Matt. 25:41
Matt 25:41 “… depart from me … into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” Another problem man has stems from the fact that God made us in His image. Now the Scripture says somewhere that God is spirit. Among other things, we too are spirit. The problem with this, it seems to me, is that spirits don’t die. So, what is God to do with man once He sins - cast him into the Lake of Fire. I say NO! We chose to sigh up with Satan’s team and when it is all done and finished; all wrapped up, we simply get to join our team captian in his eternal home … the one that Matt. 25:14 says was prepared for him and his angels … not for man … the eternal lake of fire. Seems to me, God sends no man to hell or eternal judgement; we did it to ourselves.
April 18th, 2006 at 9:14 pm
now this is cut and paste.
Here is hell in the NKJV
Mt 5:29 - Show Context
If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
Mt 5:30 - Show Context
And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
Mt 10:28 - Show Context
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mt 18:9 - Show Context
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.
Mt 23:15 - Show Context
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Mt 23:33 - Show Context
Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
Mr 9:43 - Show Context
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched–
Mr 9:45 - Show Context
And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched–
Mr 9:47 - Show Context
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire–
Lu 12:5 - Show Context
But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!
Jas 3:6 - Show Context
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell.
2Pe 2:4 - Show Context
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;
Our wiggy knows more than the editors of this formal equivalence version!
this is from the ESV. Another formal equivalence version but using a diferent manuscript:
Mt 5:22 - Show Context
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, You fool! will be liable to the hell of fire.
Mt 5:29 - Show Context
If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.
Mt 5:30 - Show Context
And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
Mt 10:28 - Show Context
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mt 16:18 - Show Context
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mt 18:9 - Show Context
And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.
Mt 23:15 - Show Context
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.
Mt 23:33 - Show Context
You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?
Mr 9:43 - Show Context
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
Mr 9:45 - Show Context
And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.
Mr 9:47 - Show Context
And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,
Lu 12:5 - Show Context
But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!
Jas 3:6 - Show Context
And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell.
2Pe 2:4 - Show Context
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
when is our wiggy going to bring out his own accurate version?
April 18th, 2006 at 9:27 pm
In an earlier post, 175, it was argued that when we (mankind in Adam and Eve) chose to believe, trust and obey Satan rather God, we had our membership in the kingdom of God revoked and found ourselves with forced membership in the kingdom of Satan
James that was a good post but in light of the statement you made above should we not consider this verse of scripture?
“For just as in Adam all die, in the same way also in Christ all will be given life” 1 Corinthians 15.22
Who of us had any say at all about being ‘In Adam’?
Wasn’t it the actions of one man that got this whole ball rolling?
Every one born after Adam was and is a sinning machine…
Paul tells us in the above scripture ‘in the same way also’ ALL will be given life IN THE SAME WAY.
That is a statement of enourmous importance and I think it deserves some serious thought.
I think this is a highly contentious issue and for the record I should like to apologize to brother EP. I am not saying I agree with him but reading some of my earlier posts I feel I was somewhat harsh and unforgiving in my manner and tact - *Sorry* EP…
Anyway, I am off on a 2 week holiday in the bush sans internet connection etc so I bid you all farewell for a while.
I’d encourage you all to keep debating this topic, it’s a worthwhile one.
WIGGY
April 19th, 2006 at 1:08 am
1 Cor 15:22 “.. in Christ all will be made alive.” This does warrant consideration. Ime a bit tired and lazy to try to do this now, but would like to bounce a quick response:
The Scripture says somewhere “the soul that sins will die” (sorry, i cant recall the reference); although sin passed to every man thru Adam, and we inherited our propensity to sin from our dad Adam, we are judged and condemned for our own sin - not Adam’s, pe se. Similarly, the potentiality for life passed to all men thru Christ, but as the Scripture wiggy quotes: IN Christ all will be given life. To my understanding the key here is found “in Christ.” “In Christ”, not just by dint of the fact that Christ died; Christ’s death and resurrection made life possible, but in order to partake of that life we must be found to be “in Christ”. And we come to be “in Christ” thru faith in Him. Sorry ime too lazy to look up references; if anyone is interested in this topic we could take it up in more depth. May you have a great holiday Wiggy.
EP, ive only come upon this blog very recently and am not as yet up to speed with your reasoning - am interested tho!
April 19th, 2006 at 9:46 am
Thats a good point brother James
April 19th, 2006 at 9:56 am
Wiggy you are very gracious.
I think we all got overheated and if anyone believes from any writing of mine they are due an apology then I offer one.
June 13th, 2006 at 2:46 am
A sensational video from YouTube, variously called “God is a DJ?” and “Spin DJ is a god”. It fits with the topic of this thread quite nicely and is really worth a watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZrKgqc1Rnw&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Esickflash%2Ecom%2Fdj%2Ehtml
June 13th, 2006 at 11:18 pm
Kenneth Copeland comforts Cyclone Larry victims.
mms://69.56.177.134/special/2006aucyclone.wmv
June 14th, 2006 at 9:03 pm
Lance that’s too funny.
Man I was killing myself laughing when Kenny got into the whole binding the devil thing. “…Satan we BIND YOU - you are NOT going to bring confusion to the Australian government…”
Sorry Kenneth, too late with that one!
I think these guys think Satan is an independant free-will being… The more they scream and jump up and down will make a difference? Wrong, Satan is God’s henchman doing God’s work.
WIGGY