Does God put a stop to bad things?
An interesting question has been posed in one of the hillsongs threads:
“Does God put a stop to bad things?”
It is a question that was made in the context of what some believe are bad teachings of prosperity theology etal.. but it it is wider question than that.
If the Church is doing bad things, if the people of God are being led astray by bad leaders - will God put a stop to it?
Discuss.
April 12th, 2006 at 8:30 am
Why Paul have to debate with Peter on the issue of circumscion?
Why was there a need for debate and fight for the truth in the first ecumenical council - and distil our faith into creeds.
Why did God use Luther to be instrumental in the reformation?
We need to Pray … but we need to be people not afraid to spaek out against error and abuse.
God wrote the people through people … he did not send it down with angels on golden tablets did he…?
April 12th, 2006 at 9:08 am
God wrote the scriptures through people … he did not send it down with angels on golden tablets did he…?
April 12th, 2006 at 9:11 am
as for ‘what the’s’ comments .. yes it is lamentable that Christians get to the point that it gets so heated .. being all unified, holding hands singing ‘kum by ya’ is great .. but doing it at the expense of truth is unconscionable.
it may cause schism or church splits heartache and so on but the alternative is to allow future generations to go on in error, thousands may be confronted with something unpleasant now but millions will go the wrong way if we arent continually vigilant..
Satan laughing??? - i bet he wishes half the people here would just go away and let him continue seducing the church with false doctrine
April 12th, 2006 at 10:06 am
It’s not God that lets bad things happen. It’s you and me that let bad things happen.
April 12th, 2006 at 11:17 am
Who can determine what false doctrine is? Brian Houston is absolutely convicted that his teachings on finance are biblical - and he lives those convictions. Brian will surely back his convictions up with the bible. Many of you are absolutely convicted that your view of prosperity and church leadership are absolutely correct and you will back that up with scripture.
I have seen the scriptures for both cases and I am coming to my own convictions through prayer.
I believe that three of the best and most clear cut books to lead us to biblical truth are 1 Peter, 1 Timothy, and James. These books spell out pretty clearly what the Christian life is all about. I think that most of the error being taught in Australian churches is not necessarily contradictory to the scriptures contained in these books, but it exists in the grey areas not covered by these books and asks the question - “what is permissable for Christians?”.
April 12th, 2006 at 11:21 am
I would go as far as people cause bad things to happen.
April 12th, 2006 at 11:49 am
Daniel - that’s why just letting every man sit down with his bible and determine what is ‘biblical’ truth is a bad idea.
April 12th, 2006 at 1:14 pm
But letting one body (i.e. the Roman Catholic Church or the AOG) be soley responsible for determining what is ‘biblical’ truth is equally as bad an idea.
We were each given the Holy Spirit which will ‘guide’ us into all truth.
April 12th, 2006 at 1:18 pm
I guess that what God did, is give us the ultimate gift of free will. As much as He loves us and would like to protect us, I also believe that He values freedom and free will beyond it all. I guess that’s the ultimate parent…will guide but not control. “If you love someone, set them free”…
April 12th, 2006 at 1:43 pm
The question though is….’does God intervene to stop bad things happening in a church?’.
For example, the years of litigation that’s finally brought (some) churches to recognise the problem of sexual abuse in its midst, and the severe consequences it has on its victims.
Was the litigation an example of ‘God putting a stop to it?’
Again, this is a prime argument for the defenders of Hillsong and the like; if there is something wrong with the church, God will put a stop to it.
I want bible verses and I want solid theology either way.
Or is ‘if there is something wrong with the church, God will put a stop to it’…just another half-arsed idea that the Hillsongists and the Wankers all overhear each other saying, and parrot it without thinking about its theological basis? (Like just about everything else in the Wanker Churches that originates from the mouths of Wanker Pastors.)
April 12th, 2006 at 2:45 pm
agreed lance
‘God will do it’ so i don’t have to do a thing
read ‘undercover’ last week so now i just have to obey my leaders unquestioningly and give my 10percent and God will sort everything out
April 12th, 2006 at 3:16 pm
I’ll just clarify what I wrote in my other post about the Hillsong debate - I do not believe for one second that God’s people who choose to follow him ( I’m not even going to go into the whole salvation debate !
) should sit back when they see God and his word being preached falsely or abuse is being committed in or out of the Church. Nor do I agree with most of what Hillsong seem to be and how certain things appear to be run in their Church. But that is just one person’s opinion, based on my own experience and perspective.
However, what I do believe is that God’s ultimate plan is larger than we can even fathom (Isaiah 53:9) and that if something is not in God’s plan He will deal with it, through His people that He has chosen, who obey His will and are ordained to do it. Ever tried to make something happen that is not His will ?
So, yes in some respects I believe that God does put a stop to bad things when they are not part of His ultimate plan not only for us but for all past, present and future.
It is good to think and discuss these things but if we are spending more time debating other people or churches flaws and not looking and working and repenting of our own sin ie humaness we are not glorifying God in all that we do. ( 1 Corinthians 10:31 ) Unless God tells us specifically that we are perfect and without sin !
( Romans 3:23)
Bottom line is we live in a fallen world like it or not and there are things about it we will never understand. All we can do is seek Him in all things, and be obiedient to Him. ( Simplistic I know - but I sleep peacefully at night ! And see the fruit by living this way too! )
April 12th, 2006 at 3:39 pm
Daniel, the rationale you’re using is what the Mormons, Hovies, ‘delpians and every other silly sect comes out with too.
April 12th, 2006 at 3:55 pm
THE RIDDLE OF EPICURUS
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
April 12th, 2006 at 4:27 pm
I believe that i am doing Gods will by standing for the truth…..
who are you to say that any of us are not chosen by God?
what would you have said to Martin Luther?
April 12th, 2006 at 4:38 pm
AbTruth, that depends on whether or not I was a parishioner, the Elector of Saxony, the Pope or his wife, really.
April 12th, 2006 at 5:00 pm
“…….. if something is not in God’s plan He will deal with it, through His people that He has chosen, who obey His will and are ordained to do it. Ever tried to make something happen that is not His will ?”
OK…..so you’re saying that it’s not God ‘personally’ who deals with bad stuff in churches ….but it’s through particular people.
Who exactly are “His people that He has chosen, who obey His will..and are ordained to do it.”
For example, in the case of Hillsong, who specifically would those people be?
The oversight board of the church? (hand-picked by Brian, not by God).
The members of Hillsong? (any old wanker who rolls up off the streets..squints their eyes shut and waves their arms in the air)
The media? (people who admittedly for the most part know fuck-all about Christianity)
Other church leaders? (many of whom may share the same beliefs and methodology….or are covering their own arse by adopting a ‘you don’t question my church/I don’t question yours’ stance.)
The NSW department of Fair Trading, ASIC, Police?
Again, who exactly are “His people that He has chosen, who obey His will..and are ordained to do it.”
April 12th, 2006 at 5:08 pm
No, I dont believe that my rationale is the same as the Mormons, Hovies, ‘delpians and every other silly sect. My rationale is taken from the bible and it is a good example of what this discussion is about “what is truth”.
I have taken my rationale from John 14:15-17
“If you love me you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of Truth…” and
John 16:13 “But when he, the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.”
April 12th, 2006 at 5:11 pm
I pressed “submit comment” to soon.
The point that I am getting at, is that I believe the scriptures that I posted previously and I live by them. But people will argue that “just letting every man sit down with his bible and determine what is ‘biblical’ truth is a bad idea”. That idea can be argued back and forth, but I still believe in the scriptures that I quoted.
April 12th, 2006 at 5:13 pm
Do I think God intervenes to stop bad things happening?
Short answer…not always
Long answer…I believe He gives grace to those who are the victims to do whatever they need to do to process the pain and grow from the experience. I believe He pokes the conscience of the wrongdoers and provides them with grace, forgiveness and guidance to fix up the mess.
Whether either party (victim or perpetrator) choses to accept these gifts is determined by their own free will.
April 12th, 2006 at 5:24 pm
Then Daniel, why did a group of men (church councils) have the authority to close the Bible?
April 12th, 2006 at 7:52 pm
lol… luke, comment 16
you always throw a spanner in the works
although without Luther the Roman Catholic church would not have had the counter reformation………..
April 12th, 2006 at 7:56 pm
Hey, lobbing spanners is great fun mate. And occasionally jars the odd dis-used brain cell into action (a la philbaker.net….remember those good old days?)
Agreed on Luther. But rememebr, the Counter-Reformation is what he had in mind all along….it was the Reformation that was the unintended consequence.
April 12th, 2006 at 8:07 pm
David……….
your quote of the epicurian riddle (or David Humes version of it at least) ignores the aspects of true (unforced) love given by an objects free will
God is able and willing but witholds for those who he has chosen who would freely choose and love him.. those same people are free, naturally, to do things against his will which (if God is perfectly good to its maximal possible degree) would result in evil
April 12th, 2006 at 8:12 pm
agreed luke
April 12th, 2006 at 9:49 pm
no. it’s clear that God doesn’t put a stop bad things. just look at me…
April 12th, 2006 at 11:49 pm
If the Church is doing bad things, if the people of God are being led astray by bad leaders - will God put a stop to it?
In the long run, the answer would be yes, but he deals with it in his own way and in his own time. Sometimes he permits it to go on for reasons known only by himself (ie: for some greater reason that we don’t understand now but generally so that some good will come out of it), other times he will stir up a believer who is well grounded in biblical doctrine to “appeal” to the misled.
If we look at the verses within 2 Corinthians 11, we see the Apostle Paul dealing with False Apostles within the church. Verse 15 makes it clear that they will get exactly what their actions deserve.
1 Peter 2 this chapter discusses the issue of False Teachers. Verse 3 states: “In their greed these false teachers will make a profit out of telling you made-up stories. For a long time now their Judge has been ready, and their Destroyer has been wide awake!”
If we look at Galations 2:11-14 we see the Apostle Paul rebuking Peter for wrong behaviour.
Again take a closer look at Galations 4:16-18 Paul shows his concern for the Galations by stating: “Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? Those other people show a deep interest in you, but their intentions are not good. All they want is to separate you from me, so that you will have the same interest in them as they have in you. Now it is good to have such a deep interest if the purpose is good, this is true always, and not merely when I am with you”.
The verses in Philippians 1:15-18 states: “Of course some of them preach Christ because they are jealous and quarrelsome, but others from genuine goodwill. These do so from love, because they know that God has given me the work of defending the gospel. The others do not proclaim Christ sincerely, but from a spirit of selfish ambition;…It does not matter! I am happy about it - so long as Christ is preached in every way possible, whether from wrong or right motives…”
A key message is 2 Timothy 3:16. “All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching the truth, rebuking error, correcting faults, and giving instruction for right living”.
April 13th, 2006 at 12:06 am
I’ve just been reading some stuff on a new word Ive learned - Eschatology
I think it has bearing on both the hillsong thing, and the idea of what God does about evil ( bad things) ie: God, help me… my car broke down and I am late for work… *insert sarcasm*
Basically it comes in two forms.. ( iknow all you B.Theol graduates are yawning already)
Prophetic eschatology - The assumption is that evil in the world lies internally among the people of God. The impediment ( to Gods work in the world)is the unfaithfulness and sin of Gods people
Apocalyptic eschatology - Assumption that evil is external from Gods people. Main problems being pride, abuse of power, lawlessness, tyranny..
The writer of the article opined that modern Christians seem to cling to the latter, when their cultural context seems to breed and necessitate the former…
Does he put a stop to bad things? not in my experience.. Have a look at the history of Christianity.. But he did put a stop to all the bad things that His people have done, there would be no sin, no wilderness, no exile, no lament, no repentance, no renewal, and no eschatology.. no furture, no journey, no love… no life
April 13th, 2006 at 12:08 am
no hope..
April 13th, 2006 at 10:06 am
Agreed Andrew but that entails people believing that the bible is God’s word and there are quite a few that comment here that don’t.
They even reject the 2 Tim quotation!!!