Does God put a stop to bad things?
An interesting question has been posed in one of the hillsongs threads:
“Does God put a stop to bad things?”
It is a question that was made in the context of what some believe are bad teachings of prosperity theology etal.. but it it is wider question than that.
If the Church is doing bad things, if the people of God are being led astray by bad leaders - will God put a stop to it?
Discuss.
April 13th, 2006 at 10:13 am
Shorter BB@EP - My interpetation’s right and yours is wrong.
Homer, you should join us Micks and run for Pope….given how you’re so infallible and all.
April 13th, 2006 at 10:17 am
Does God put a stop to Homer?
April 13th, 2006 at 11:13 am
Luke, you couldn’t possibly agree with Andrew.
I thought a speechwriter would write we!!
April 13th, 2006 at 12:03 pm
And I thought an educated person would be capable of critical thought.
how do you write ‘we!!’, by the way.
(in case it’s slipped your notice, my 30-second incursions into the world of signposts are not in my official capacity, by neccessity are brief and aren’t neccesarily edited for content, style, cadence, references, spelling, grammar, rhythm or clarity. And if you’re criticising me for lack of any of those, a little navel-gazing wouldn’t go astray.)
April 13th, 2006 at 12:47 pm
So Luke you can criticise other people for their lack of grammar but you who boasted of being a speechwriter is immune from that.
April 13th, 2006 at 1:00 pm
If you consider it a boast, then good luck to you. I’m not going to get into a personal dbate with someone on a website, suffice to say I pointed out that ‘he who is without sin should be casting the first stone’. You chose to make an issue out of my profession, not me.
April 13th, 2006 at 1:33 pm
So Luke you can criticise other people for their lack of grammar but you who boasted of being a speechwriter is immune from that.
Your taking the piss with that one aren’t you Homer? or should I have written - isn’t you?
April 13th, 2006 at 1:35 pm
Homer is picking up people on their grammar.
Fuck me dead.
April 13th, 2006 at 1:41 pm
I believe that bad things come from the evil one and God allows the devil to test us via these bad events. If we pass such a test we are rewarded immensely by God at some stage. If we fail we become farther from God and our lives turn miserable. Faith in God means that no matter which storm comes our way, He is in the boat right beside us helping us weather all events.
Cheers
April 13th, 2006 at 1:54 pm
Nailed it in one, Lance old fruit.
April 13th, 2006 at 2:52 pm
Luke,
you made a point of it to criticize me old son.
Those in glass houses!!!
April 13th, 2006 at 4:23 pm
Indeed, Homer, indeed.
April 13th, 2006 at 4:42 pm
One day bad things will cease to exist. One day false religions will cease to exist. But until that day, God gives us His Holy Spirit to guide and convict us in regard to sin. God also gave us free will to make the right choice. “For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.” Habakkuk 2:14
April 13th, 2006 at 4:42 pm
Every single person on this blog is in a glass house - we are all sinners. To pompously assert that our particular world view through our denominational lenses is correct and condemn or poke fun of those that are not is entirely wrong.
At the end of the day, when we stand before the judgement seat, God will not ask us why or how we came to the scriptural conclusions that we did - he will simply ask (If he asks us anything at all) “were you ashamed of my son Jesus?”, “Did you love me with your heart mind and strength?” and “did you love your neighbor as yourself?”
April 13th, 2006 at 4:53 pm
Daniel, you said that one day false religions will cease to exist. Are there any true religions, and if so what are they? Will true religions endure? You may interpret religion as meaning faith in your response to these questions.
April 13th, 2006 at 5:12 pm
Frances
please re read your post… i think you need to clarify
If we fail our lives turn miserable??? what if failing the test is a one night stand with Elle McPherson??
Sin is fun… It’s not right but sure is fun.
Do you believe in Karma?
April 13th, 2006 at 6:11 pm
David, I can not say what a false religion is. I would claim that there is one truth though. God is the God and Jesus is His son who died on the cross - through Him I have salvation and forgiveness.
When that day comes (when the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord), we will know what the false religions / false gods are. Until then we can only have faith that Jesus is Lord.
April 13th, 2006 at 6:16 pm
You don’t even have an inkling, Daniel? What if someone started up a religion that worshiped, by way of theoretical example, a moon-god and followed a pedophile messenger? Would that be a false religion?
April 13th, 2006 at 6:18 pm
Another example: people who follow a fat man who claims to understand the source of all pain and suffering?
April 13th, 2006 at 6:18 pm
“what the?…”
I would like to introduce you to Iranues:
“For their error is not displayed as what it is, lest it should be stripped naked and shown up; it is craftily decked out in an attractive dress, and made to seem truer than the truth itself to the inexperienced because of the outer appearance.
As one better than I am has said about these matters, a precious stone like emerald, which many value greatly, can be put to shame by a clever imitation in glass, unless there is someone on hand who can test it, and show what was done deceptively by art; and when brass is mixed with silver, what untrained person can easily prove it?
So then, lest some should be made prey of through my fault, like sheep by wolves, not recognizing them because of their outwardly wearing sheep’s clothing-whom the Lord warned us to guard against26 talk like us, though thinking very differently”,
http://people.bu.edu/dklepper/RN212/irenaeus.html
That’s exatcly why we comment and spaek out.
Becuase we test the teachings of the Contmporary Church … the Brian Houston’s, the Pat Mesiti’s, the Allan Meyer’s, the Phil Pringles - unfortunately Phil Baker (whom we were hoping might speak out) supports and agrees with them.
Some people (ie. spiritual consumers) are not equipped to interpret scripture correctly … to protect their own spirituality & finances and that of their families.
April 13th, 2006 at 7:47 pm
Frances is straight, abtruth. Perhaps a one night stand with George Clooney?
April 13th, 2006 at 9:10 pm
Frances ( #39)
i dont believe that all bad things are a test.. What about the SEA Tsunami? is that a bad thing or just circumstance?
Is God that arbitrary? DOes he delight in watching as we try to cross tightropes he knows we are incapabele of staying upright on?
April 15th, 2006 at 9:36 am
Interesting topic guys.
Does God indeed put a stop to bad things?
This may come as a shock to some (and indeed it did to me when I saw the truth of this in scripture) but God is the author and creator of these bad things… Not a pleasant thought but true all the same.
Here are some scriptures to get you all thinking
“That they may know from the rising of the sun, and to its going down, that there is none besides Me; I am Jehovah, and there is none else; forming light, and creating darkness; making peace, and CREATING EVIL. I, Jehovah, do all these things” Isaiah 45.6-7
Who makes evil men?
“The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea even the wicked for the day of evil” Proverbs 16.4
“Behold I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy ” Isaiah 54.16
Who causes some to refuse their invitation to the wedding supper?
“I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine” John 17.9
“O Lord why hast thou made us to err from thy ways and hardened our heart from thy fear” Isaiah 63.17
“This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, AND THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS IS OF ME, saith the Lord” Isaiah 54.17
“And coming near, the disciples said to Him, Why do You speak to them in parables? And answering, He said to them, Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven, but it has NOT BEEN GIVEN to those”
Who is responsible for the fate of ALL MANKIND?
“And the vessel that He made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter” Jeremiah 18.4
God the potter does not make mistakes; He deliberately created a ‘marred vessel’ first: Adam, Cain, Ishmael, Pharoah, Esau, King Saul and physical Israel, vessels of dishonor, created for “the destruction of the flesh that the spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord”
I Corinthians 5.5
This is meat of the word stuff that you just won’t get at CCC or HS. If you’re used to scriptural lollies and cordial you’ll probably gag on this stuff.
God bless
WIGGY
April 15th, 2006 at 9:53 am
Luke said -
It’s not God that lets bad things happen. It’s you and me that let bad things happen
Yes that’s what I used to think too Luke but scripture tells us the complete opposite…
God has made Satan the way he is and is using him for his PURPOSES.
Luke, orthodox Christianity would have you believe that Satan is in fact ‘Lucifer’ – a once perfect worship leading, multi-instrumentalist angel who malfunctioned and turned sour for no apparent reason and who is now waging his own guerrilla war against Christ and his kingdom.
But is this what the bible teaches and more importantly, does it line up with other scriptural accounts?
Christ himself revealed to us that Satan was a murderer from the beginning –
“You are of your father, the Adversary, and the desires of your father you are wanting to do. He was a man-killer FROM THE BEGINNING, and does not stand in the truth, for truth is not in him. Whenever he may be speaking a lie, he is speaking of his own, for he is a liar, and the father of it” John 8.44
So Satan was a ‘man-killer’ from the ‘beginning’.
The Greek word used here for beginning is Arche and is defined as the following from the Thayer Greek-English lexicon –
*Beginning, origin.
*The person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series; the leader.
*That by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause.
*The extremity of a thing.
*Of the corners of a sail.
So Christ here is telling us plainly that Satan was as he is from the very origin of his creation – from the extremity of his founding or birth.
He didn’t turn that way after a while – he was that way from the beginning - He was created for this express single purpose.
Heres some more scriptures that follow this theme –
“Now the serpent was more subtle and crafty than any living creature of the field which the Lord God HAD MADE” Genesis 3.1.
Again we see this truth revealed; Satan is a created being, fashioned that way by the hand of God.
Heres another in Job -
“By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent” Job 26.13.
The word used for formed here is a Hebrew word Chalal.
This same word was often used in reference to people playing the flute or pipe.
Flautists or pipe players must obviously hold the instrument out from their bodies, at an arms length.
They do not typically tuck it into themselves or stand slouched over when playing or performing.
It would appear that when God formed Satan, he did very much the same thing; he created this serpent and adversary at an arms length.
The implication here is that even though God has indeed formed Satan, he is not dear to or near to his heart at all.
In our pride and vanity, we do not want to admit it, but the truth of the scriptures is that every choice we make is a caused choice.
“Freedom of choice” and “free moral agency” are false doctrines that defy the declarations of God in His word that -
“Man’s goings [good and evil] are of the Lord; how can a man understand his own way?” Proverbs 20:24.
“It is not of him that willeth…but of God” Romans 9.16.
“It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure” Phillipians 2.13
“…who worketh ALL THINGS (this includes bad things and evil things Luke) after the counsel of His own will” Ephesians 1.11
“For of Him and through Him and to Him are ALL THINGS (Yes - bad, ugly and evil things - ALL things)” Romans 11.36.
This first chapter of Job is a perfect parallel to what happened to our original parents in the garden of Eden. Note the parallels:
Whose idea was it to try Job in this way?
“And the LORD SAID unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job?” Job 1.8.
It was the Lord who drew Satan’s attention to Job - NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND!
What was Satan doing up to that time? “…going to and fro in the earth…walking up and down in it” Job 1.7.
Why does Satan do this? “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion walketh about, seeking whom he MAY devour” 1 Pet. 5.8.
That’s why Satan is “…going to and fro in the earth and walking up and down in it.” He is simply “seeking whom he may devour”
I hope this helps your understanding on evil Luke
WIGGY
April 15th, 2006 at 9:55 am
Luke said -
It’s not God that lets bad things happen. It’s you and me that let bad things happen
Yes that’s what I used to think too Luke but scripture tells us the complete opposite…
God has made Satan the way he is and is using him for his PURPOSES.
Luke, orthodox Christianity would have you believe that Satan is in fact ‘Lucifer’ – a once perfect worship leading, multi-instrumentalist angel who malfunctioned and turned sour for no apparent reason and who is now waging his own guerrilla war against Christ and his kingdom.
But is this what the bible teaches and more importantly, does it line up with other scriptural accounts?
Christ himself revealed to us that Satan was a murderer from the beginning –
“You are of your father, the Adversary, and the desires of your father you are wanting to do. He was a man-killer FROM THE BEGINNING, and does not stand in the truth, for truth is not in him. Whenever he may be speaking a lie, he is speaking of his own, for he is a liar, and the father of it” John 8.44
So Satan was a ‘man-killer’ from the ‘beginning’.
The Greek word used here for beginning is Arche and is defined as the following from the Thayer Greek-English lexicon –
*Beginning, origin.
*The person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series; the leader.
*That by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause.
*The extremity of a thing.
*Of the corners of a sail.
So Christ here is telling us plainly that Satan was as he is from the very origin of his creation – from the extremity of his founding or birth.
He didn’t turn that way after a while – he was that way from the beginning - He was created for this express single purpose.
Heres some more scriptures that follow this theme –
“Now the serpent was more subtle and crafty than any living creature of the field which the Lord God HAD MADE” Genesis 3.1.
Again we see this truth revealed; Satan is a created being, fashioned that way by the hand of God.
Heres another in Job -
“By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent” Job 26.13.
The word used for formed here is a Hebrew word Chalal.
This same word was often used in reference to people playing the flute or pipe.
Flautists or pipe players must obviously hold the instrument out from their bodies, at an arms length.
They do not typically tuck it into themselves or stand slouched over when playing or performing.
It would appear that when God formed Satan, he did very much the same thing; he created this serpent and adversary at an arms length.
The implication here is that even though God has indeed formed Satan, he is not dear to or near to his heart at all.
This first chapter of Job is a perfect parallel to what happened to our original parents in the garden of Eden. Note the parallels:
Whose idea was it to try Job in this way?
“And the LORD SAID unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job?” Job 1.8.
It was the Lord who drew Satan’s attention to Job - NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND!
What was Satan doing up to that time? “…going to and fro in the earth…walking up and down in it” Job 1.7.
Why does Satan do this? “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion walketh about, seeking whom he MAY devour” 1 Pet. 5.8.
That’s why Satan is “…going to and fro in the earth and walking up and down in it.” He is simply “seeking whom he may devour”
I hope this helps your understanding on evil Luke
WIGGY
April 15th, 2006 at 10:39 am
Wiggy, people are responsible for bad things. And forces of nature. That is all we can see and demonstrate. The rest is conjecture. As much as we would like to “blame” God or evil spirits, I think we humans must take ultimate owership. That means we must also take responsibility to remedy the evil we see. Our failure to do so cannot be blamed on God or Satan.
April 15th, 2006 at 10:50 am
Luke said this -
It’s not God that lets bad things happen.
It’s you and me that let bad things happen.
Hey Luke. Let’s actually clarify this from a scriptural point of view shall we.
Firstly we should acknowledge the fact that there is a force of evil present in the world and he is named ‘Satan’.
Where did Satan come from?
Orthodox Christianity would have you believe that Satan is in fact ‘Lucifer’ – a once perfect worship leading, multi-instrumentalist angel who malfunctioned and turned sour for no apparent reason and who is now waging his own guerrilla war against Christ and his kingdom.
But is this what the bible teaches and more importantly, does it line up with other scriptural accounts?
The answer is an unequivocal NO!
Christ himself revealed to us that Satan was a murderer from the beginning –
“…You are of your father, the Adversary, and the desires of your father you are wanting to do. He was a man-killer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, for truth is not in him. Whenever he may be speaking a lie, he is speaking of his own, for he is a liar, and the father of it…” John 8.44
So Satan was a ‘man-killer’ from the ‘beginning’.
The Greek word used here for beginning is Arche and is defined as the following from the Thayer Greek-English lexicon –
*Beginning, origin.
*The person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series; the leader.
*That by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause.
*The extremity of a thing.
*Of the corners of a sail.
So Christ here is telling us plainly that Satan was as he is from the very origin of his creation – from the extremity of his founding or birth.
He didn’t turn that way after a while – he was that way from the beginning - He was created for this express single purpose.
Heres some more scriptures that follow this theme –
“Now the serpent was more subtle and crafty than any living creature of the field which the Lord God HAD MADE” Genesis 3.1
Again we see this truth revealed; Satan is a created being, fashioned that way by the hand of God.
Heres another in Job -
“…By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent…”
Job 26.13
The word used for formed here is a Hebrew word Chalal.
This same word was often used in reference to people playing the flute or pipe.
Flautists or pipe players must obviously hold the instrument out from their bodies, at an arms length.
They do not typically tuck it into themselves or stand slouched over when playing or performing.
It would appear that when God formed Satan, he did very much the same thing; he created this serpent and adversary at an arms length.
The implication here is that even though God has indeed formed Satan, he is not dear to or near to his heart at all.
Whose idea was it to try Job in this way?
“And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job?” Job 1.8.
It was the Lord who drew Satan’s attention to Job.
What was Satan doing up to that time?
“…going to and fro in the earth…walking up and down in it” Job 1.7.
Why does Satan do this?
“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion walketh about, seeking whom he MAY devour” 1 Peter 5.8.
That’s why Satan is “…going to and fro in the earth and walking up and down in it.”
He is “seeking whom he may devour.”
Whose idea was it for Adam to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
Was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil Satan’s creation?
No, God “creates evil” Isaiah 45.7
Did Satan place this tree in the middle of the garden and make it so pleasant and appealing to the eyes that it would tempt our parents?
No, this too, was by God’s “predestinated” design and counsel, see Ephesians 1.11
Why, on the other hand, were they not attracted to the tree of life?
God NEVER told them they could not eat of the tree of life.
Why did they not desire the tree of life?
Because it: “hath no form or comeliness and when [they saw it] there [was] no beauty that [they] should desire it” Isaiah 53.2
Who was it that created the crooked serpent to entice our parents to transgress God’s command?
“By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens: His hand hath formed the crooked serpent” Job 26.13
It was God who formed the serpent and placed him in the garden to tempt Adam and Eve.
The entire event was “for to do whatsoever thy hand [God’s] and thy counsel [God’s] DETERMINED BEFORE to be done” Acts 4:28
WIGGY
ezekiel3verse4thru7@hotmail.com
April 15th, 2006 at 11:06 am
So man is running God’s creation is he Donaldduck?
Can you find the word ‘responsible’ in the bible Don?
It’s not there.
The word ‘accountable’ is but that has a different meaning.
We are accountable for our actions but not responisble as we are not free-moral agents.
God and God alone is the causer of all that we see and hear in this world.
God does create evil Don-meister
Isaiah 45.7 - “forming light, and creating darkness; making peace, and CREATING EVIL. I, Jehovah, do all these things”
I didn’t say that Don or site admin, it’s in your bible - don’t shoot the messenger.
Thanks for deleting my post too site admin.
Great to see you’ll let others use foul language but look out if you quote some scripture that has any truth that you don’t like you’ll delete it in a flash.
April 15th, 2006 at 11:12 am
I would reply to you Don-boy but my posts are being deleted by site admin.
Please email me ezekiel3verse4thru7@hotmail.com if you want to discuss furthur
regards
WIGGY
April 15th, 2006 at 3:11 pm
Deep breath, Wiggy. They’re still there, honey.