Does God put a stop to bad things?
An interesting question has been posed in one of the hillsongs threads:
“Does God put a stop to bad things?”
It is a question that was made in the context of what some believe are bad teachings of prosperity theology etal.. but it it is wider question than that.
If the Church is doing bad things, if the people of God are being led astray by bad leaders - will God put a stop to it?
Discuss.
April 15th, 2006 at 10:31 pm
Must go now - can’t sleep in tomorrow.
April 15th, 2006 at 10:40 pm
ahahahahahaha
April 15th, 2006 at 10:44 pm
Here are some closing thoughts for the evening regarding Saul of Tarsus or Paul the apostle (same guy)
Are we so spiritually blind that we think this account of Saul is just an interesting segment of early church history?
No, this too, is for our admonition.
Jesus said “…I am come into this world that they which see not might see; AND THAT THEY WHICH SEE MIGHT BE MADE BLIND” John 9.39
Saul of Tarsus certainly thought he could see:
“Touching the righteousness which is in the law, [Saul was] blameless” Phillipians 3.6
Saul had to be shown just how blind he had been.
“He was three days without sight…”
After three days of total darkness, a disciple named Ananias, who lived on a street called Straight, prays for Saul.
“And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith…” Acts 9.18
This was written for our admonition
Saul’s road to Damascus experience once again is NOT an exception to the ways of God.
It may be unusually dramatic, but that is for the purpose of making the truth an open door for those to whom “it is given to understand the mysteries of the kingdom” of God, while hiding the truth from those to whom” it is not given to understand the mysteries of the kingdom of God.”
Saul of Tarsus had more than any other man “…whereof he might trust in the flesh” Phillipians 3.4
He thought he had need of nothing, yet he was brought to see AGAINST his own fabled ‘free will’ that in reality he was naked and blind
(see Revelation 3.17)
Until we are chastened and scourged as was Saul (Hebrews 12.6), we will not be received by God.
We will continue in our blind, naked condition thinking we have need of nothing.
Christ will tell us “you have not chosen me” and we will maintain we still have freedom of choice.
He will say we are “predestinated” and “he worketh all things after the counsel of HIS OWN will” we will yet take the credit for accepting Him as our savior…
Night all
WIGGY
April 15th, 2006 at 10:46 pm
ahahahahahaha
What’s funny Rev?
WIGGY
April 15th, 2006 at 10:48 pm
Put down your brandy and pick up a working class beer.
I quote the New century Bible Commentary, ( romans 1:18 - 32)
“For this text makes clear that there canbe no salvation apart from response to the Gospel of Christ. ( but this) To be sure, God is soverign in the communication of his Grace as well as its application, and he may at times choose to bring people to a knowledge of the Gospel in ways quite unforseen and even unknowable to us.”
i cannot disagree with Gods immanece, nor his Omnipotence and love for his Creation, but Im still unconvinced.
April 15th, 2006 at 10:57 pm
Urban I’m still here even though I’m nackered.
I’ll pick this up tomorrow (Should God will that I do so…)
Cheerio
WIGGY
April 15th, 2006 at 10:57 pm
Anon said he was coming to my church tomorrow morning, and would give me a hundred dollars if I talked about zombies and played a clip of dawn of the dead during service. So I took his can’t sleep in to me he actually plans on joining us tomorrow.
ofcourse there will be no zombies or dawn of the dead.
the rev
April 15th, 2006 at 11:39 pm
Wigg… This is for tomorrow.. only twenty five minutes away…
(#53) you said that it shocked you when you first saw it in scripture… can you expand on that precise moment of illumination? I dont mean doctrinally or theologically, but what was it that personally converted you to universalism?
April 16th, 2006 at 2:22 pm
Urban Monk you said this -
You said that it shocked you when you first saw it in scripture… can you expand on that precise moment of illumination?
More than happy to Urban.
Yeah look I ‘got saved’ (that’s such an un-scriptural term in itself) when I was 14 and grew up accepting the doctrines of the AOG - y’know, pay your tithes, give an offering, people that die without Christ go to Hell etc etc…
It wasn’t until recently (last couple of years) when I began to question tithing and found scripturally that there is no basis for it I started to think “What else have these guys missed it on?”
As I had a close family member die at a young age I used to wonder - “Are they being burned alive right now?”
I decided to study the word Hell in the bible; it’s origins and what the original words translated as Hell actually meant.
I then actually started to seriously think about the whole concept of eternal damnation.
I mean seriously - who of us would want to see our most hated foe be burned alive for all time?
Have you ever burnt yourself?
Seconds can seem like hours and yet most of the Orthodox Christian world would have us believe that a loving God will burn his creation in literal fire for all eternity.
Do you realise that 70 years (the average Life span) amounts to nothing when you compare that to say 10,000 years.
And what is 10,000 years in comparison to a million?
What is a million years in comparison to 1000 million years.
And what is that in comparision to ETERNITY?
These are the question I asked myself Urban and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit I was led to truth, real honest scriptural truth.
“As in Adam all die - EVEN SO in Christ ALL will be made alive”.
There it is Urban, the Gospel really is GOOD news!
WIGGY
April 16th, 2006 at 2:44 pm
Urbo’s you said this -
what was it that personally converted you to universalism?
It was an incredible shock to the system Urb’s I’ll admit.
I literally had to let go of this false doctrine that had been embedded within me from my earliest Christian beginnnigs.
Once I had come to accept the facts of scriptiure I still was going to work and doing all the motions of life with this one thought on my mind - God will save EVERYONE…
Here are some scriptures I have not as yet quoted that relay this truth -
“For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all” Romans 11.32
“If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire” 1 Corinthians 3.15
“That at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father”
Phillipians 2.10-11
“And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile ALL THINGS unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven” Colossians 1.20
“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” 1 John 2.2
“And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away” Revelation 21.3
WIGGY
April 16th, 2006 at 4:57 pm
You shall burn in hell for those beliefs Wiggy. Read the article http://www.av1611.org/hell.html for a biblically sound proof of the reality of hell. None of the scriptures you quote support your evil universalist talk.
May you see the truth before you die. Amen.
April 16th, 2006 at 5:06 pm
A certain man called Jesus talk about hell and its implications more than any other person.
given we celebrate, inaccurately, his resurrection from the dead today.
I would pay his teachings great attention
April 16th, 2006 at 5:08 pm
A) For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all” Romans 11.32
Notice the word “might”
B) If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire” 1 Corinthians 3.15
Paul is talking about the believers
C) That at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father”
Phillipians 2.10-11
Yes, one day everyone will recognize Jesus. But it will be too late for some. Falling down and confessing won’t get them into heaven.
D) And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile ALL THINGS unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven” Colossians 1.20
“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” 1 John 2.2
This is referring to the scope of God’s salvation. The scope is universal, but the application is not. It is possible for all to be saved, but many will be lost.
E) “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away” Revelation 21.3
Does not support your position at all.
April 16th, 2006 at 5:28 pm
You shall burn in hell for those beliefs Wiggy
You speak as an utter fool ‘True Gospel’.
Do you EVEN know what the words translated as ‘Hell’ are and what they actually mean?
You relegate God to some kind of mythical monster worse than Hitler, Stalin, Hussein and every other kind of dictator put together ‘True Gospel’.
You claim Revelation 21.3 does not support my position?
How pray tell can God say THERE WILL BE NO MORE DEATH if according to your bugus theology God is burning the vast majority of HIS CREATION in a literal lake of fire.
Death scripturally speaking is both physical and spiritual (seperation from God).
I have studied to show myself approved ‘True Gospel’ whereas you have not.
You tell me what the Hebrew and Greek words inerrantly translated as the one english word ‘Hell’ actually mean - I shall wait for your response.
WIGGY
April 16th, 2006 at 5:34 pm
A certain man called Jesus talk about hell and its implications more than any other person.
What a load of Crock!
Christ NEVER spoke of Hell you fool - He did speak of the ‘Fires of Gehenna’.
What are the ‘Fires of Gehenna’?
Since you seem to know it all ‘True Gospel’ you tell us…
WIGGY
April 16th, 2006 at 5:59 pm
Hi everybody! Hope you all enjoiyed your Resurrection Sunday Services!!
Wiggs basic postion still seems to be that ALL will be saved, but paul and peter do seems to talk quite wrathfully about Gods Judgment those who lead astray Gods people in their letters. Wigg, is this again a matter of interpretation of Greek words, or the Apostles understanding at the time? If so, how do you interpret Annaias and Saphira? 2nd peter?
Just coz Gods DESIRE is for ALL, doesnt mean ALL wil turn to him… An invitation is still just that, an invitaiton. Iguess its a matter of how you balance free will and omnipotence. they will always be in tension, some tune up, some tune down.. What about where paul talks to his churches about free will? Should we go on sinning that Grace may increase?
And BTW - could you be a little clearer in yor answers to my specific questions, Ie: above?
April 16th, 2006 at 6:02 pm
Homer simpson is brother urban
FYI
April 16th, 2006 at 6:10 pm
How dare you suggest that Jesus spoke anything but the King’s English. The 1611 Authorised Verion is the true, unadalterated word of God Wiggy. No need to refer to those satanic hebrew and greek books.
April 16th, 2006 at 6:13 pm
wiggy you forgot the implications.
of course if all are saved then both the cross and resurrection are pretty well pointless
April 16th, 2006 at 6:15 pm
It is appointed unto man once to die Wiggy. You will be writhing in pain in the lake of fire for eternity.
April 16th, 2006 at 6:21 pm
I cant believe that I am defending a fundamentalist view of hell, given my contemplative leanings, some of which are clearly quite radical in their universalism. Julian of norwich comes to mind. Not only that but I have discovered that it seems to be the contemplative tradition that leans most towards a sympathetic, almost partnership with other rligions - Buhddism etc..
but the original topic being does God put a stop to bad things, I note in the preamble a point about church leaders leading their people astray. Clearly he does not put a stop to this! Which opens up the possibility wigg.. of giving some circumstanital support to your sick world view ( only kidding)
April 16th, 2006 at 6:22 pm
True Gospel and Bring back EP you guys are Pharisees…
And are you serious True Gospel when you say the 1611 KJV is the un-adulterated word of God?
There have been well over 2000 DOCUMENTATED changes to that version since then.
I will be writhing in pain in the Lake of Fire?
Clearly the God you serve has more in common with mass Murderers than the God os the Gospel.
Here’s something for you two clowns to think about -
In the book of Jeremiah we find a scripture that totally contradicts your depraved and distorted view of God.
“…For the children of Judah have done evil in My sight says the Lord; they have set their abominations (extremely disgusting and shamefully vile things) in the house which is called by My name to defile it. And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of Ben-hinnom (son of Hinnom), to burn their sons and daughters in the fire (in honor of Molech, the fire God) – which I did not command, nor did it come into My mind or heart…” Jeremiah 7.30-31
Things have not changed all that much since the days of Jeremiah the prophet. The children of Judah – the World-wide Church of today - have set their abominations in Gods house and defiled it with their shameless and barbaric doctrine of eternal torment and Hell.
But God says clearly here that IT NEVER ENTERED HIS HEART to do such a thing. And yet ‘ministers’ proclaim the above ‘abomination’ as God’s justice, they call an evil thing good.
I see also you have NOT answered a SINGLE question I posed to you True Gospel.
You don’t have a clue do you? You are so angry at me and you don’t even know enough about what you are talking about to defend your half-baked SATAN-inspired position.
WIGGY
April 16th, 2006 at 6:25 pm
Thats a bit harsh wigg..
April 16th, 2006 at 6:26 pm
Homer Simpson or Urban - I never suggested that there would not be Judgement did I?
Nope, I didn’t.
I believe I clarified what exactly the scriptural definition of Judgement was in post number 72.
Scroll back up and read it if you forgot.
Are we given a biblical type and shadow of this Judgement?
Yes we are.
The story of Joseph and his brothers is our example and was written ‘for our admonition’.
I shall digress furthur on this if you’d like
WIGGY
April 16th, 2006 at 6:29 pm
Niether have you answered any of my questions directly.. only with unrelated lng winded bible quotes that dont engage the topic ( or the questios) critically, but back up your own position… You sure you dont beleive in Hell?
April 16th, 2006 at 6:29 pm
Thats a bit harsh wigg..
How so when True Gospel says I ‘will be writhing in agony in the Lake of Fire for all eternity’?????
Have you even thought through the ramifications of this Urban?
You seem to firing questions at me a mile a minute but NEVER seem to answer any I pose at you and have to bothered to read the lengthy posts I have made re Free Will, Judgement etc?
Please comment on these if you have otherwise do not shoot the messenger.
WIGGY
April 16th, 2006 at 6:31 pm
But you do suggest that judgment does not include exclusion from the kingdom for some?
April 16th, 2006 at 6:34 pm
Urban Man.
NO I DO NOT BELIEVE IN HELL.
The scriptures teach nothing of a place of eternal torment.
I think also I have engaged your questions quite well but it seems to me you are getting answers you don’t like.
That’s quite ok and I’m happy to agree to disagree but do not defend True Gospel when he wishes on me a fate worse than death.
Do you know Uday Hussein used to put people through a tree mulcher?
Yep, it’s true.
As evil and depraved as this is it is far more merciful than burning someone for ALL ETERNITY.
And this is what you believe to be the biblical fact?
Unbelieveable!
WIGGY
April 16th, 2006 at 6:41 pm
Your quote from 1Cor 3…
This doesnt nesecarily imply no eternal fire, only that those that are his, though theyve done some shoddy work will escape. it certainly implies judgement, and fire, but i dont see how it implies or states cleaerly a unilersalist view?
Taken in Isolation, your citations make real sense…
how do you interpret Jesus parable of Lazurus and the rich man, when the rich man is”writhing in torment.”
Or, when he mentions a place where there will be, “weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
April 16th, 2006 at 6:46 pm
sorry about the offence… none meant. I didnt say that I believe it as biblical fact, merely disseminating a lifetime of cultural teaching, Like all good emergents, its all up for grabs buddy. I am just trying to engage your view in a decent way, I dont think that I have been hostile to your point of view at all, I merely say that it is not over and out for me..