Does God put a stop to bad things?
An interesting question has been posed in one of the hillsongs threads:
“Does God put a stop to bad things?”
It is a question that was made in the context of what some believe are bad teachings of prosperity theology etal.. but it it is wider question than that.
If the Church is doing bad things, if the people of God are being led astray by bad leaders - will God put a stop to it?
Discuss.
April 16th, 2006 at 6:51 pm
But you do suggest that judgment does not include exclusion from the kingdom for some?
It does include exclusion from the Kingdom for a season Urban but not forever no.
“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” Hebrews 9.27.
No Urban, we are not judged immediately upon death as some believe.
Death is simply sleep for now -
Job 14.12 –
“So man lies down and does not rise (to his former state). Till the heavens are no more, men will not awake from nor be raised physically out of their sleep…”
Psalm 13.3 –
“Consider and answer me O Lord my God, lighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death…”
Daniel 12.2 –
“And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake…”
Perhaps the most obvious fact that death really is a state of deep sleep is that Jesus TWICE referred to death as sleep.
Do we think Christ said this for no reason at all?
No, Jesus was well aware of the real state of being that befell a dead person.
“…He said these things and then added, Our friend Lazarus is at rest and sleeping; but I am going there that I may awaken him out of his sleep. The disciples answered, Lord if he is sleeping, he will recover. However Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he had referred to falling into a refreshing and natural sleep. So then Jesus told them plainly, Lazarus is dead…” John 11.11-14
“…While he was talking this way to them, behold, a ruler entered and, kneeling down, worshipped him, saying, my daughter has just now died; but come and lay Your hand on her, and she will come to life…And when Jesus came to the ruler’s house and saw the flute players and the crowd making an uproar and din, He said, Go away; for the girl is not dead but sleeping…” Matthew 9.18, 23-24
Judgment comes only “after death.”
It is only after we are truly dead to the flesh that God begins to judge us and to show us what we are.
It is not a pretty picture that we come to see:
“For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?”
The answer to Peter’s question is the great white throne judgment and the lake of fire. As I mentioned before it is not a LITERAL lake of fire as most belive but a symbolic one…
Who does the Judging?
God elect or Few chosen:
“…Do you not know that the Saints will one day judge and govern the world? And if the world itself is to be judged and ruled by you, are you unworthy and incompetent to try (such petty matters) of the smallest courts of justice? Do you not know also that we are to judge the (very) angels and pronounce opinion between right and wrong (for them)?”
1 Corinthians 6.2-3
Hope this helps Urban
WIGGY
April 16th, 2006 at 6:59 pm
God did some pretty mean things in the olden days Wiggy. Wiping out whole cities, killing women and children. God was a nasty piece of work back then. Why not quote some Old Testament passages to support God’s evil ways?
April 16th, 2006 at 7:01 pm
how do you interpret Jesus parable of Lazurus and the rich man, when the rich man is”writhing in torment.”
This is quite simple Urban.
As you mentioned it is a parable and not to be taken literally.
Christ was simply debunking the long-held belief that a rich man was a righteous man - This is no different to Houston or Pringle’s teaching actually.
If it were literal then seeing as Lazarus is taken to Abraham he must of been in heaven yeah?
“And yet NO ONE has EVER gone up to Heaven, but there is one who has come down from Heaven – the son of man…” John 3.13
The reason Lazarus was taken to the bosom of Abraham symbolized that the true gospel would be given to the gentiles and they would become the ’seed of Abraham’. No longer would the rich pharisees rich in history and tradition have anything to do with it.
WIGGY
April 16th, 2006 at 7:02 pm
Thats interesting stuff.. But i really have to be going now.. My brain needs to cool a bit, and dinner is on the way… Will engage further tomorrow..
April 16th, 2006 at 7:07 pm
Hey Wiggy,
I do not accept universalism, but I do see some strong points in what you are saying. Can we talk about this more through email? johnj@forge.org.au
the rev
April 16th, 2006 at 7:14 pm
Urb’s, you said this -
Or, when he mentions a place where there will be, “weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Yes Judgement shall be most unpleasant i assure you.
As I mentioned the type and shadow we are given for this is found in the story of Joseph and his brothers…
They throw him a pit and sell him into slavery.
When Joseph is reigning over all and second only to Pharoh (a type of Christ in this instance) and his brothers come to him what does he do?
Hugs and Kisses all round?
No way - he TORMENTS them.
“And Joseph saw his brethren, and he knew them, but made himself strange unto them, and spake roughly unto them; and he said unto them, Whence come ye?”
They are put under extreme emotional stress and what happens to them as a result of this?
“And they said one to another, We are verily guilty concerning our brother, in that we saw the anguish of his soul, when he besought us, and we would not hear; therefore is this distress come upon us”
They are being JUDGED ay they JUDGED - it’s all coming back to haunt them.
And yet even after Jospeh reveals himself to them they then live in fear of their lives for another 17 long years until their FATHER or OLD MAN dies - then they finally repent of their wicked deeds…
“And when Joseph’s brethren saw that their father was dead, they said, Joseph will peradventure hate us, and will certainly requite us all the evil which we did unto him. And they sent a messenger unto Joseph, saying, Thy father did command before he died, saying, So shall ye say unto Joseph, Forgive, I pray thee now, the trespass of thy brethren, and their sin; for they did unto thee evil: and now, we pray thee, forgive the trespass of the servants of the God of thy father. And Joseph wept when they spake unto him. And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants”
WIGGY
April 16th, 2006 at 9:22 pm
I do not accept universalism, but I do see some strong points in what you are saying. Can we talk about this more through email?
Have emailed you Rev. Will chat when you are ready
WIGGY
April 17th, 2006 at 9:49 am
Gehenna came to be used metaphorically for the HELL of fire, the place of everlasting punishment for the wicked..
All references in the Synoptic gospels are utterances of Jesus which almost to man scholars agree Jesus is talking about the above.
Hell is usually used as the palace of future punishment for the wicked dead.
Hell is seen as unquenchable fire Matt31:2, Damnation Matt 23:33, furnace of fire Matt13:42, 50 , blackness & darkness Jude13, a lake which burns with fire and brimstone Rev:21:8, a place prepared for the devil and his angels Matt25:41
Jesus speaks:
Mark9:43, Mk9:47-8, Luke 12:5, Matt8:12,, Luke13:28, Lk 16:26.
Many more verses could be used.
Universalism is incompatible with Gehenna!
A person who does not believe in hell and who professes to be christian is either a liar or a lunatic to quote CS Lewis!
April 17th, 2006 at 9:52 am
At ‘em, boy. You tell that evil universalist a few home truths, ep.
April 17th, 2006 at 9:57 am
Homer, what is symbolic and what is not there? Cause if there is darkness there can’t be fire right? So we must assume that there is some symbolism are we not?
And just so you don’t freak out, I still have my dictionary so be careful what you say. I also am not a universalist, but I think we need to be honest about our arguements.
the rev
April 17th, 2006 at 10:26 am
In response to your obvious cut and paste LP I shall say the following -
Your quote from Revelation is flawed my friend.
Revelation is a book of SYMBOLS and is not to be taken literally.
Will Christ come and ACTUALLY LITERALLY remove your candlestick?
(Rev2.5) Would you really care if he did?
The Lake of Fire in revelation is EQUALLY symbolic.
Why is Brimstone mentioned along with it?
Actually burning Brimstone in ancient times was regarded as having the power to purify and ward off disease, especially contagion or leprosy.
So God is again reinforcing the concept of fire as a means of PURIFICATION – not destruction.
Now Lp do you even KNOW what the word translated as FIRE is in the above scriptures you quoted at me?
No you don’t do you?
It is a Greek word Pur.
Where else is this SAME GREEK WORD USED IN SCRIPTURE?
“…But he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not fit to take off or carry; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire (Gk; Pur)…” Matthew 3.11
“…For everyone (Gk; Pas – meaning individually and collectively) shall be salted with fire (Gk; Pur)…” Mark 9.49
“…I have come to cast fire (Gk; Pur) upon the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled…” Luke 12.49
“…And there appeared to them tongues resembling fire (Gk; Pur), which were separated and distributed and which settled on each one of them…” Acts 2.3
“…The work of each one will become (plainly, openly) known (shown for what it is); for the day (of Christ) will disclose and declare it, because it will be revealed with fire (Gk; Pur), and the fire (Gk; Pur) will test and critically appraise the character and worth of the work each person has done…” I Corinthians 3.13
“…For our God (is indeed) a consuming fire (Gk; Pur)…”
Hebrews 12.29
“…So that (the genuineness) of your faith may be tested, (your faith) which is infinitely more precious than the perishable gold which is tested and purified by fire (Gk; Pur)…” 1 Peter 1.7
“…His head and his hair were white like white wool (as white) as snow, and his eyes like a flame of fire (Gk; Pur)…” Revelation 1.14
It is VERY CLEAR from these scriptures that the fire being spoken of in Geenna is NOT literal fire but the fire of God’s spirit.
Jesus himself said he had come to send fire (Gk; Pur) upon the Earth (Luke 12.49).
Did Christ literally blast anybody with actual literal flames?
No he didn’t!
The Fire in the Lake of Fire is the same Greek word - Pur.
It is fire in the purification sense – the fire of the Holy Spirit.
Before you cut and paste more rubbish LP here’s some advice -
KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!
WIGGY
April 17th, 2006 at 10:37 am
Why would the envangelical church have preached the fear of hell fire in the past, Wiggy? Some Christians still do. Are you saying they have been lying.
I think Wiggy is afraid of the eternal punishment of hell fire, and has done everything possible to brainwash himself out of believing it.
What if you’re wrong, Wiggy?
April 17th, 2006 at 10:47 am
What does the story of Joseph have to do with whether or not ALL will be saved? The way I read the N.T. and the O.T. There is always a separtation between those that belong to God and those that dont… If you remember correctly, Wiggo, there was quite a bit of controversy about including the Gentiles? Yes, the way was mad open to ALL, but I fail to see how this automatically equates to a universalist position.. it fails to take into account the whole counsel of Scripture in my view, and in light of Church history, creeds and so forth, it just doesnt add up for me.. Sure, ther is always hope for repentance.. but we know that there are people who understand this and yet chose to ignore it. Judas? ( poor bugger, he always gets the rough end of the stick) So I have to conclude that, in part, I disagree with you… Are you familiar with a mob called watercarriers? you sound alot like those guys…
On the other hand, my interest in contemplative theology has taught me about GOds immanence. That God lives at the very centre of each person, which in all their striving through life, “functional Atheism” only awaits for the dawn of awakening in which theiy finally recognise their essential union with God and Creation. In the words of SOng of Songs, they are “Woken up to Love” this seems incompatible with the sheep and goats theory of muc Christian thought.. but it may not be… you could argue that the whole world continues on in willful Functional atheism, I agree that God is soverign over Creation, and that his love for it is deeper than we realise.. Surely real love is prepared to experience the pain of loss should the other party not reciprocate?
April 17th, 2006 at 10:52 am
Urbanmonk, so are you suggesting it’s best for folks to walk through life in the cold clear light of atheism, and ignore the garbled messages from God?
April 17th, 2006 at 10:59 am
Donald duck you are making me laugh.
I at least am able to argue sensibly and with an understanding of scripture… All you can say is ‘what if you are wrong?’ LOL
Urban you asked about Judgement and I simply expounded on our type and shadow of this.
Just as Joseph’s brothers were tortured in his presence so those who do not truly know Christ are ‘tortured in the presence of the Lamb’ -
“and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb” Revelation 14.10
As for your comment about those that belong to God and those that don’t well that’s where it’s get’s interesting.
Where in the OT prophecies do the prohpets prophesy against the pagan world?
They do so very rarely if at all.
Almost all of the prophesies are against ISRAEL - God’s own people.
They are the one’s who killed the prophets and they are the one’s who crucified Christ.
Interestingly in the story of Joseph his brothers take 17 years to finally repent whereas the Egyptian people sell themselves as slaves to Joseph in the space of 2 years…
What does that tell you?
WIGGY
April 17th, 2006 at 11:06 am
So Wiggy, God engages in “torture lite”, just like the Americans, huh? He won’t condemn someone forever in hell fire, but will get a little nasty on judgement day.
April 17th, 2006 at 11:33 am
Im not suggesting this Don, If God calls someone, he calls them. If he is determined that they hear, they cannot escape. his voice. This is the testimony of many people, and is leaning in the direction of Brother Wiggs argument, I think..
Many people go around believing in God, even conversing with him, but still live their lives as”functional athiests” that is, they still try to determine all the outcomes themselves. Even the direction and practice of their spiritual lives. I think most of these people are Christians. I am one. the spiritual life, in many contemplative traditions, is about moving fromm this mode of “functional Athieism” to a loosening of the will from attachment. Gods garbled messages “wake us up to love” the question is, if a person goes through their whole life lisstening, hearing, but not waking up, does God then cast them into eternal hellfire? Wigg says no.. me..I dont know.
As I have said earlier, the tension for me lies between Gods soverign will, his passionate, wooing love for his Creation, and human choice. If love is free, there must be choice, but if God is so close, so loving, how can we fail to “wake up”
sure is a conundrum..
April 17th, 2006 at 11:37 am
Interesting topic this - DOES GOD PUT A STOP TO BAD THINGS.
According to Donald, True Gospel, Urban (or Homer S?) and EP no he certainly does NOT but takes great delight in torturing his own creation, how delightful.
People will be burned for all time in a literal lake of fire.
Wow, I can hardly wait…
Somehow according to EP there will be outer darkeness and burning flames all at the same time. - yes I can see he’s really thought about that one.
And yet when I bring real scholarship to the table replete with scripture and Greek words it all goes very silent…
The best you can come up with it ‘what if you’re wrong?’ and some quote from CS Lewis…
I think I’m done with this topic, if anyone want to discuss it further you can contact me here - ezekiel3verse4thru7@hotmail.com
WIGGY
April 17th, 2006 at 11:44 am
Why can’t we all be right? We’re all (eventually) brothers and sisters in Christ, aren’t we Wiggs? That book you quote from, the Bible, maybe God didn’t have anything to do with it. Ever thought about that?
April 17th, 2006 at 11:54 am
Are you a Biblical Scholar Wigg?
I threw many a biblical quote at you, but you could only dismiss them as stupid. :the over arching theme of the BIBLE is that there is a difference between Those that are Gods and those that arent. those that are, may be punished severely, but they will be reunited when God brings them to repentance. Thosae that arent have destruction reserved for them. in both Old testament and new. Whether or not this is a literal lake of fire, who cares.. Those who sow acording to the sinful nature, from that nature, will reap destructuion… There is such a thing you know.. it plays out in observable reality in many a life…
How do you justify yourself against this? Just because God uses pharoah, doesnt mean that pharoes destiny is not destruction whether or not this is in the form of fundo hellfire is not important to me, Did not the egyptian soldiers perish in the red sea? God Chooses people! who are you to say what the final opurposes of God are? like any other theological view, yours is only one of many… in case you hadnt noticed.
April 17th, 2006 at 12:28 pm
Urban you said this -
I threw many a biblical quote at you, but you could only dismiss them as stupid
When Urban?
I thought I answered your questions very well and also referenced your quotes too.
BTW Where and when did I call you stupid?
Forgive me if I have offended you brother, I meant none.
David tells us all throughout the Psalms that ‘his mercy endures forever’.
And yet you say this Urban -
Whether or not this is a literal lake of fire, who cares…
Obviously you do not!
The kind of thing you are talking about relegates God to an act of genocide that would dwarf anything that Hitler, Poll Pott or any other evil human has done.
Duck man, you said this -
That book you quote from, the Bible, maybe God didn’t have anything to do with it. Ever thought about that?
What sort of reasoning is that Don?
So you say we are ‘brothers in Christ’ but you don’t belive the bible is God’s infallible word. You say perhaps he ‘didn’t have anything to with it’. Unbelievable Don…
As I said my words here on this topic are falling on deaf ears and I think it is pointless of me to continue posting when I am shot down with quotes from CS lewis, ‘what if you’re worng’ and ‘maybe God had nothing to do with the bible’ etc.
WIGGY
April 17th, 2006 at 12:56 pm
Real scholarship includes a somewhat undergraduate examination of a Greek lexicon and a dubious interpretation of scripture.
Universalism or apokatastasis like all heresies has been around a long long time.
It involves a faulty reading of Acts 3:21, Rom 5:18-9, 1 cor 15:22 and others..
Clement of Alexandria is thought to be the first to propagate this nonsense.
rev, the symbolism is essential as we are talking about the after-life.
Where Wiggy and the rest go wrong is assuming punishment is wrong.
It is not it is just. We all deserve it.
It is the act of God’s love that some are spared because of grace as they put their faith in Jesus.
What wiggy and the rest can’t and won’t answer is what is the point of the cross and ressurection if there is universalism?
April 17th, 2006 at 1:07 pm
Wigg does not discount punishment EP, what he discounts is that anyone will be left out… of the messianic banquet
Wigg, what i menat about the lake of fire , is that whether or not it is leiteral or symbolic, it points to a truth that none of us are able to concretely apprehend… What i put to you is, how do you get around the over arching theme of the BIBLE, that God Chooses some, and not others?
The early Christians were steeped in this tradition and like it or not, it has carried over into the Chrisatian view, only in a different way.
I think EP makes a good point about the cross
April 17th, 2006 at 1:11 pm
What wiggy and the rest can’t and won’t answer is what is the point of the cross and ressurection if there is universalism?
How could any of this be possible without Christ EP?
I never suggested it wasn’t, on the contrary and as Paul says in the following scripture -
“But if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation is worthless, and your faith is also worthless. And also we are found to be false witnesses of God” 1 Corinthians 15.13
Thankfully though EP Christ came, died and was raised.
Where Wiggy and the rest go wrong is assuming punishment is wrong.
I never said that you fool - why lie?
You can’t answer any of my questions whereas I have put you to shame with your cut’ n paste google nonsense.
I pointed out that we are Judged and chastised and I said it would not be a very pleasant experience.
Didn’t you read that post? See Post #72
What I did not say was that God will fry the vast majority of his creation in a mass torture chamber called ‘Hell’.
Defend it all your bogus eternal torment doctrine all you want EP but do not lie about what I said…
WIGGY
April 17th, 2006 at 1:20 pm
Wiggins, you are still accusing God of engaging in torture. Here is your statement:
“Just as Joseph’s brothers were tortured in his presence so those who do not truly know Christ are ‘tortured in the presence of the Lamb’ ”
Whether God tortures someone for eternity in hell or for a limited time, we have now established that God has crossed the moral line and is a torturer.
April 17th, 2006 at 1:24 pm
Wigg, what i menat about the lake of fire , is that whether or not it is leiteral or symbolic, it points to a truth that none of us are able to concretely apprehend… What i put to you is, how do you get around the over arching theme of the BIBLE, that God Chooses some, and not others?
Hey again Urban.
I must admit, I like your rationale my friend - you ask clever questions that I myself have asked.
Why indeed does God choose some and not others?
For example Why does God say he has Loved Jacob and Hated Esau?
Paul Answers that EXACT question in his letter to the Roman church -
“What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God?
God forbid.For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?”
Paul here is demonstaring the point that there is no such thing as ‘Free Will’. As painful as this is for our flesh it is the simple truth of scripture!
Ok, back to the point at hand.
Clearly God is running the whole show and is ‘marring vessels’ and ‘hardeding hearts’ as he wills to do so.
So how do I get around this?
Well I don’t - I don’t need to.
All I am saying is that since God is orchestrating this whole thing and doing ‘his good pleasure’ and ordering ‘all things after the counsel of his own will’ (Ephesians 1.11) why do we think that he would then punish these marred vessels and hardened hearts for all eternity?
As Paul says, it is not of him that runs or wills but of God that shows mercy - MERCY, not eternal anger.
Does this help Urban?
WIGGY
April 17th, 2006 at 1:30 pm
Whether God tortures someone for eternity in hell or for a limited time, we have now established that God has crossed the moral line and is a torturer.
Don - LOL mate, you have caught me out
Surely though Duckman a symbolic 17 years is preferable to eternity in hell fire?
Interesting actually that Joseph is 17 when he begins his ‘trials by fire’ and in turn his brothers have 17 years believing that Joseph will kill them… I think there’s something in that
WIGGY
April 17th, 2006 at 1:40 pm
You’ve heard the allegorical tale of a woman propositioned at a cocktail part by a would-be sleaze. The sleaze suggests a price of $10,000 and the woman replies she is not a prostitute. When the price is raised to $1,000,000 the woman agrees. The sleaze says how about $500 to which the women replies, “What sort of person do you think I am?”. The sleaze says. “We have already established what sort of person you are, we are now just negotiating the price.”
What other immoral acts do you accuse God of, Wiggins?
April 17th, 2006 at 1:53 pm
That romans quote is exactly the passage that I have been thinking of for the last few days but couldnt pinpoint it.. Perhaps God hardenend my heart so he could display his glory.. Whats a pot gonna say?
but this reference, wigsta, is usually interpreted in the affirmative of the question i put to you;being Chosen, is it not? What does dishonour mean? usually disgrace, right? Being chucked out. I dont dispute your position on Gods soverignty at all! He does use Marred pottery, what else does he have! And I will admit, it seems to naturally follow, the idea of ALL things being drawn together in the unity of Gods perfect love is an appealing one to romantic contemplatives like me.
Im no scholar. I didnt even finish High school until I was twenty nine..
With what do you back up your assertion that Paul is saying that there is no free will? In other parts of Romans, he says that we should not “Choose” sin, which infers free will. Also, in Chapter one, he admoinishes that God has revealed himself, and you therefore are without excuse.
April 17th, 2006 at 1:53 pm
What other immoral acts do you accuse God of, Wiggins?
Get over yourself Don you fool.
It’s not me supporting the concept of eternal hell fire.
Go and put your hand over a gas flame now Don.
See how long you can leave it there.
Now after doing this can you then turn around and tell me that God will do this millions and millions of people for all eternity?
You haven’t even thought through the consequences of this.
Isn’t there a point when God’s anger would outweigh his mercy?
You don’t even believe the bible is the inspired word of God Don so don’t even try and educate me with your pagan stupidity and your pathetic stories of girls at cocktail bars.
When have you answered any of my questions I posed at you?
You said ‘God doesnt create evil things, people do’.
And yet right there in Isaiah 45.7
God comes out tells us he creates evil -
“Forming light, and creating darkness; making peace, and CREATING EVIL. I, Jehovah, do all these things”
You don’t have an answer do you Don?
Please tell us all if you could Don what becomes of us after we die.
I shall wait for your answer o wised and learned Duck man -
WIGGY