Does God put a stop to bad things?
An interesting question has been posed in one of the hillsongs threads:
“Does God put a stop to bad things?”
It is a question that was made in the context of what some believe are bad teachings of prosperity theology etal.. but it it is wider question than that.
If the Church is doing bad things, if the people of God are being led astray by bad leaders - will God put a stop to it?
Discuss.
April 17th, 2006 at 1:59 pm
With what do you back up your assertion that Paul is saying that there is no free will? In other parts of Romans, he says that we should not “Choose” sin, which infers free will. Also, in Chapter one, he admoinishes that God has revealed himself, and you therefore are without excuse.
Great question Urban.
All through scripture we find both Universal and relative truths.
God being soveriegn is a Universal truth.
Dying to yourself daily is a relative truth.
Check out this parallel account of David numbering Israel for an example of the Universal and relative -
Our first account is in 2 Samuel –
“…And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, Go; number Israel and Judah…”
2 Samuel 24.1, Amplified Version.
Our next account of the very same event tells us just how God moved himself against Israel. Rather than being a contradiction, it is simply a defining aspect of just how God operates –
“…Satan (an adversary) stood up against Israel and stirred up David to number Israel…” 1 Chronicles 21.1, Amplified Version.
So yes, God did indeed move himself against Israel but he used Satan, the adversary, to accomplish and carry out his will.
Urban this illustrates the seeming contradictions in the bible.
Yes God is totally soveriegn but that does not deny us the part of ‘dying daily’ or ‘taking up our cross’.
We cannot pin everything on God (our decisions, reactions etc) even though he is orchestrating every single thing in our lives.
Hope this helps - gotta go now, be back this evening
WIGGY
April 17th, 2006 at 2:17 pm
This is a parting aside until we cross swords again this evening wig..
I once sat in a class with half a dozen other young guys for six months under the “teaching” of an anglican Minister, who is now the principal of Ridley College in Melbourne. If there is any one who is into scholarship, surely it is our Anglican brothers and sisters…
And you know what he taught those impressionable young men? That he would not countenance a woman in leadership over a man. And you know what else? there is no way I would have argued with him on that point at that time in my life. You know why? Because I felt I had no place in questioning the interpretation of the scriptures by a man with such “spiritual” scholarly stature. he, no doubt could easily back up his position from Scripture. Not to mention the fact that the mere timbre of the mans voice would be enough to convince me I had no idea what I was talking about.
I thoroughly enjoy an intellectual discussion, and beleive it to be essential in thrashing out the matters of faith and doctrine and living, but my point is that being scholarly does not ensure a correct point of view.
April 17th, 2006 at 2:40 pm
Wiggy has not learnt context when he went to college otherwise he would not have made the completely absurd claim that each time pur is used it is the holy spirit.
He then puts in bits of nonsense like Rev 2:5 which are irrelevant.
A pity in Revelations those who have been judged still are unrepentant.
Shucks that don’t matter. Christ died on the cross for my sins.
the more I sin the more god can forgive me through Jesus!!
April 17th, 2006 at 2:51 pm
He then puts in bits of nonsense like Rev 2:5 which are irrelevant.
How so EP? According to you the Lake of Fire is literal.
Well why isn’t the candlestick literal too?
Wiggy has not learnt context when he went to college otherwise he would not have made the completely absurd claim that each time pur is used it is the holy spirit.
I never said every time that Pur is used it is the holy spirit I only showed you that it does not neccesarily mean literal fire in the absolute sense…
Tell me EP, since you’re so convinced that Christ speaking of the Fires of Gehenna is literal have you dismembered those body parts that have caused you to sin?
You must be typing with the stumps of your arms you poor man
(cue violins for the abased man that is EP, he has no hands!)
“…And if your right hand serves as a trap to ensnare you or is an occasion for you to stumble and sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better that you lose one of your members than that your entire body should be cast into Geenna…” Matthew 5.30
So according to your logic EP the first part of this verse is symbolic but the second is literal.
WOW - you really do make sense now!
WIGGY
April 17th, 2006 at 3:29 pm
Whadaya think of this wig, EP, Duckman:
http://lesstravelled.net/2006/03/31/gridlock/
April 17th, 2006 at 3:34 pm
The over-arching story of scripture is reconciliation. It is the story of a world that is born, torn, and worn, but is waiting to be reborn, restored, and renewed. It is the story of the God who created all things drawing all things to himself to be made new. It is the story of humanity running from God, only to find God going both after and before us. That is the primary story of scripture.
I like this paragraph because it is the truth Urban, that is indeed the message of the scriptures.
Good find my friend!
WIGGY
April 17th, 2006 at 3:37 pm
We should give EP some time to reply Urban as it has come to my attention he has no limbs to type with.
He is at best a torso and I believe he is considering down-sizing himself even furthur.
With his literal approach to the scripture he just keeps finding bodily parts that must be severed so that *hopefully* he will not endure the fires of Gehenna.
I must stress patience in regards to EP
WIGGY
April 17th, 2006 at 3:45 pm
It applies to us as well wiggins
April 17th, 2006 at 3:47 pm
So what are you saying Urban?
Should I slice and dice my limbs so as to avoid the literal flames and fire?
You believe that scripture is literal too?
April 17th, 2006 at 3:48 pm
Anyone who calls his brother a fool is in danger of the fires of Gehenna
Who said that?
April 17th, 2006 at 3:52 pm
You didn’t answer my question Urban.
Answer mine and I shall answer yours.
FYI I was being sarcastic and showing the *foolishness* of EP’s argument - clearly a bit too much for some @ this time of day
April 17th, 2006 at 3:52 pm
No, i was talking about the grid of interpreting scripture that everybody has… Post 159 was a bit fecitious, but what are we talking about? Is there “Truth” to what Jesus is telling us there?
April 17th, 2006 at 3:59 pm
Is there “Truth” to what Jesus is telling us there?
I assume you mean in Matthew where Christ references the Fires of Gehenna?
Of course there is truth, no one except DonaldDuck would argue otherwise.
But what I am saying is that it is not a literal application of these truths we should be looking at.
The ‘letter kills but the spirit gives life’ (2 Corinthians 3.6)
If all we see is the letter (fire, hell, lake of fire etc) we MISS THE POINT entirely Urban.
EP has missed the points I have showed him.
He refues to see it though and that is cool - he will see it when and if God wills him to do so.
You still didn’t answer my question - Is the Fire of Gehenna a literal fire?
WIGGY
April 17th, 2006 at 4:05 pm
post 156 cracked me up for a number of minutes..
clearly since Origen showed us the fruit of taking this literally, there havent been to many Christians around that are too attracted to the slice and dice option, ecxept EP of course..
I believe the literal take of scripture has caused much damage to people and the church, It seems to stir up our natural bloodlust.. that makes us do stupid and depraved things..there is tension there that I am unable to adequately reconcile… I know a young guy who has been fed the creationist stuff that points to the description of Leviathans in the Wisdom and poetic literature as “proof” of humans being around dinosaurs..
Its silly, so silly some of it that it makes you wonder how peole could swallow it in the first place, but when I called that kid a “fool” Jesus words came back loud and clear… And I WAS in danger of the fires of Gehenna.. if you catch my meaning.. The Churchneeds more atrtists, who are comfortable with the power of metaphor, than literal moralists…
April 17th, 2006 at 4:15 pm
That’s a good post Urban.
It has been highly rewarding chatting with you but now I must make dinner for my family…
WIGGY
April 17th, 2006 at 4:19 pm
I cant really answer that for certain Wigg.. because I dont actually know. That might seem like a cop out at this point, but bad luck.
Post 162 I see your point entirely, all I am saying is that we interpret through the same imperfect, biased grids as those who insist on real Leviathans…
April 17th, 2006 at 4:20 pm
wiggy is very good at introducing straw men.
He is the one who talked of being literal.
His great problem is in some of the verses he has quoted only one who is a sandwich short of a picnic could believe it is the holy spirit being talked about.
I invite all here to compare the verses I have quoted to those of wiggy and see who has the correct context.
wiggy has terrible trouble with Revelations. It doesn’t come within cooee of universalism.
I wonder if wiggy has gone down the even Satan will repent road.
Who knows
April 17th, 2006 at 4:29 pm
Dinner can wait.
EP answer me these questions -
1. What is the book of Revelation all about?
2. Who / What is Satan and what is he all about?
I know it’s difficult typing with a bic biro from your mouth but take your time and answer these for me.
WIGGY
April 17th, 2006 at 4:45 pm
EP it is abundantly clear you cannot answer me scripturally on anything.
You are at best stabbing in the dark with your eyes closed.
I on the other hand have provided a plethora of scripture and biblical examples of all my arguments.
Am I saying I am perfect? No - of course not.
But if you are going to argue with me EP at least do it properly and you really should know when to stop.
I shall not answer anymore of your limp-wristed posts EP - I won’t give what is sacred to dogs
WIGGY
April 17th, 2006 at 5:05 pm
Oh do please tell us who Satan is, wriggles. Please interpret Revelation correctly, please, please, wriggles.
April 17th, 2006 at 5:33 pm
codswallop wiggy.
Your biblical verses are all over the place probably due to the many strawmen and red herrings you introduce.
You use a Greek lexicon in a bewilderingly way to ’substantiate’ your view on judgement.
moreover your universalism is incompatible with revelation pure and simple.
compare this:
I never said every time that Pur is used it is the holy spirit I only showed you that it does not neccesarily mean literal fire in the absolute sense…
with this :
It is VERY CLEAR from these scriptures that the fire being spoken of in Geenna is NOT literal fire but the fire of God’s spirit.
either our Wiggy is being exceedingly mischievous in bringing in a straw man yet again or he is confused on what he believes.
April 17th, 2006 at 5:47 pm
Wiggy, homer does not know how to argue correctly, infact in a moment he will say something that no human being in the world can understand, and then when you call him on it, he will say he said no such thing, and comment on your inability to read, he will mention your stupidity, and then in a bizarre anglican haiku say nothing in such a peculiar way you are sure that he must be channeling a drunken Yoda
the rev
April 17th, 2006 at 5:58 pm
literal
truth
a fudementalist
makes
not
hmm.. hmm..
- master yoda
April 17th, 2006 at 6:03 pm
I’m with EP on that one, wriggles. You have set up a straw-man argument. It’s obvious that Jesus used metaphors and allegories in places and I don’t think anybody seriously thinks otherwise….
So wriggles, be intellectually honest.
April 17th, 2006 at 6:57 pm
Jamesh, but when you interpret things as analogy, metaphor or literal is the issue is it not?
the rev
April 17th, 2006 at 6:58 pm
God and man and bad things and judgement and hell and how can a loving God consign men to the lake of fire and why does God allow people to preach tithing and double tithing and first fruit offerings and mandated miracle offerings. I would like to submit a few thorts:
In the Garden God gave man (mankind) authority (rule and responsibility)over the rest of His creation on earth. He also told him obey Him or die (become separated from God). The Scripture also says that whoever we obey becomes our master. Man (lets not split hairs over eve) willed (made the volitional choice) to believe Satan rather than God; obeyed Satan rather than God. Ipso facto Satan became our master. But more than this, by changing masters we also changed kingdoms. No longer were we members of God’s kingdom but now we were members of Satan’s kingdom. Had we (mankind) obeyed (trusted, believed) God we would have remained in His kingdom then we would simply have spent eternity with Him in His heavenly dwelling (whatever that is). But as members of Satan’s kingdom we get to spend eternity with him in his eternal dwelling, which Rev. 20:10 reveals to be the lake of fire (whatever that is).
Seems simple to me; we get to spend eternity with our master in his eternal dwelling place. Satan’s just sounds a little less palatable than the Lord’s.
And if there appears to be any injustice on God’s part; it is that any get saved - for surely we all deserve judgement.
On the matter of “bad things”. This seems simple to me too! The authority was given to us, we wear the responsibility for the outcomes.
April 17th, 2006 at 7:15 pm
James, recent scientific developments over the last 150 years or so suggest that we evolved from simpler life forms. Contray to that quaint bible story you quote, death has always been a part of this process. At what time in the evolution of the human species did humans switch kingdoms?
You should know better than to trot out old-fashioned relics like the garden of Eden story.
April 17th, 2006 at 7:23 pm
This is in response to the manifold all encompassing wisdom of EP.
You say that I am a full of contradictions and yet you want me to believe this -
1. God is love but at the same time will burn people with literal fire for all eternity without cessation or intermission - no half or quarter time time breaks apparently?
2. Christ tells us to ‘love our enemies’ but according to you he has no qualms about frying his in a literal lake of fire.
3. You repeatedly quote scriptures from Matthew re the Fires of Gehenna. You conclude in your abstract stupidity that the first part of each warning is NOT literal (plucking out eyes, casting off limbs etc) but are ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED the second part of each is LITERAL.
4. The Lake of Fire in revelation is apparently literal according to you however the candlesticks, 10 headed beasts, and seas of glass and other symbols are not.
5. David repeats over and over in Psalms that ‘his mercy endures forever’ but according to you EP this is a total lie.
No, David is also guilty like me of ’setting up straw men’ and has missed it on this one. What David meant to say according to EP is ‘his indignation, wrath, anger and utter fury endure forever’.
In conclusion to the topic - DOES GOD PUT A STOP TO BAD THINGS?
The Gospel according to EP is NO - Hell no infact.
Why there’s just too much to love about the smell of burning man flesh isn’t there EP.
Have you ever seen a burns victim EP?
And you’re telling me this is the God of the bible - he will relish in this eternal burning?
I must say it has been wonderful engaging with you EP.
Your use of scripture, sound reasoning and the exposition of Greek words is truly astounding - Well done EP!
April 17th, 2006 at 7:35 pm
With respect, wriggles, a real hell or place of eternal torment has been part of the teachings of the church. Those who taught this would have been backed by good biblical scholars.
Why is it now incorrect after all these years?
Can you use your brilliant mind and quote scriptural support FOR a place of eternal punishment?
April 17th, 2006 at 7:47 pm
The universalist teaching is very very old Donald, it goes back to the third century I believe.
I predict Homer will now say the if Wiggy can’t understand simple logic he needs to learn english or else there is nothing he can do to help him.
the rev