Does God put a stop to bad things?
An interesting question has been posed in one of the hillsongs threads:
“Does God put a stop to bad things?”
It is a question that was made in the context of what some believe are bad teachings of prosperity theology etal.. but it it is wider question than that.
If the Church is doing bad things, if the people of God are being led astray by bad leaders - will God put a stop to it?
Discuss.
April 17th, 2006 at 7:51 pm
DD, you are aware, i trust, that scientific evidence lends much greater support to the Intelligent Design hypothesis than it does to the Evolution hypothesis (neither hypothesis satisfies the scientific criteria for theory). And pre-empting your response: No, i do not subscribe to Creation Science (i find them almost as intolerant as most evolutionists), but i can do math, and i been to the big school and let me tell ya; evolution just cant work.
More seriously, you might like to do a google search on “irreducible complexity”. Some of these arguments are quite compelling for creation and against evolution. (Arguments to which i have subscribed for some 30 years, and now well developed by the much more erudite). These arguments don’t prove the bible, but they do show evolution to be an absurd impossibility; a nonsense really. The Intelligent Design argument of Behe (he is one of the best IMHO of the Creation Scientists) might be of interest to you also.
Yes, i do subscribe to the Eden story; probably with views that differ from may conservatives - but nothing that a good exegesis couldnt reconcile.
April 17th, 2006 at 8:22 pm
True Gospel you said this -
God did some pretty mean things in the olden days Wiggy. Wiping out whole cities, killing women and children.
God was a nasty piece of work back then.
Why not quote some Old Testament passages to support God’s evil ways?
Easy -
“But not the spiritual first, but the natural; afterward the spiritual”
1 Corinthians 15.46
Old testament is type and shadow True Gospel and is written why?
‘For our admonition’ - 1 Corinthians 10.11
WIGGY
April 17th, 2006 at 8:35 pm
Wriggles, you seem uncomfortable with the evil that God does. Examples are God’s Old Testament evil deeds and God’s coming torturous judgement.
Exactly what sort of horrible God do you believe in, wriggles?
April 17th, 2006 at 8:38 pm
James (#175)
Seems to me, a big chunk of the universalist position rests on everything, in a really cosmic way belonging to the Soverign Lord.. Wiggs has pointed out plenty of scriptural examples that support that.. The Earth is the Lords and everything in it… including the work of Satan.. the work and salvation of all mankind.. the very earth itself..my bone of cntention with him has been the question of free will in relation to Gods soverignty over creation.
But thats the message isnt it.. Salvation to all who believe. All mankind?
Im not saying i agree with it 100% but its worth some monkish meditati0n, surely…
April 17th, 2006 at 8:54 pm
Lets consider this…
Job was righteous before God
God “allowed” Satan to afflict Job
Job got sick, his kids died
He lost the prosperity that was his ‘reward”
Jobs mates had all kinds of reasons for Jobs affliction
Sin, blah blah blah
Job maintained his innocence
Jobs mates called him a whinger
Job demands an answer
God says, shut up Job, I am about to speak
god speaks
Job has nothing to say
God speaks again
Jobs demands turn into worship
Jobs mates get a dressing down from God on Jobs behalf
Job is vindicated
It seems that this whole process of the life of Job is orchestrated by God..
I appreciate this is a Jewish literature story. If this kind of thing happened today, what would the Christian response be? Wed all be talking about sin, Spiritual warfare, faithfulness..money, I reckon we, the bride of Christ, wouldnt sound too different from Jobs mates. But the point is, it illustrates wiggos assertion of the complete soverignty of God over creation, perhaps..
April 17th, 2006 at 9:16 pm
Umonk. If the wages of sin is death, and we have all sinned and deserve death - why do we complain and blame God if a bit of pain comes our way? (not trying to make lite of anyone’s suffering here - just making a general point). I agree that God is soveriegn and has all and absolute right and authority - the earth and all it contains is His. By His sovereignty then He must have the right to delegate to man, as is recorded in Genesis, dominion (rulership with authority) over His earthly creation. He still owns it, but it seems to me He has given us the job to run it. True, the consequences of original sin has made this task a tad more difficult and our sinful natures impact on the way we exert dominion. But i do not read where God revoked our charter.
Umonk wrote, “… faithfulness…money”. Do i detect cynicism?
April 17th, 2006 at 9:22 pm
Wriggles, you seem uncomfortable with the evil that God does…
How so?
Didn’t I point out Isaiah 45.7 - “forming light, and creating darkness; making peace, and CREATING EVIL. I, Jehovah, do all these things”
to you DD?
How am I uncomfortable with this when I pointed it out to you?
True Gospel asked why didn’t I expound on the God of the Old Testament - as though he is a different God or something.
Nay DD, I simply showed him that ‘first is the physical (OT, old covenant, physical rituals etc), then the spiritual (NT, New covenant, spiritual rituals etc).
Perhaps if you actually believed that the scriptures are the infallible word of God I would humour your other points but clearly you have a very humanistic p.o.v in relation to God.
You attempted to shoot down James because he has the nerve to believe in creation? You bewilder me DD
WIGGY
April 17th, 2006 at 9:23 pm
me cynical? I dont know what your referring to?
April 17th, 2006 at 10:04 pm
Umonk (post 183) “salvation to all that believe.”
Yep; even for the likes of thee and me. I am not given to emotional expression, but is this not wonderful?
g’nite all, ime off for an early snooze
April 18th, 2006 at 1:12 am
#174 - the rev
Absolutely…
My point was that Wiggles was typifying EP’s response, which was a straw-man argument.
April 18th, 2006 at 10:08 am
let us see where we are.
Jesus talks about hell and its implications more than any other figure in the bible.
Our Wiggy says no he talked about Gehenna. this is semantic but note he does not rebut the argument merely create a smokescreen.
various verses can be produced to show there is hell.
Matt 3:12, 23:33, 13:42, 50, Jude 13, Rev 21:8.
What does our Wiggy do but bring in the Greek word pur and then says it is the holy spirit and but it isn’t!
One then says what about revelations. In chapter 9 we have people who have been judged still not repenting.
Our wiggy then doesn’t answer that.
Indeed I wonder at what our wiggy thinks justification is?
He must think the unrepentant gain it as there is no hell.
What is his justification for this ( pun intended).
It is interesting watching wiggy in action.
A person brings up biblical verses and then he completely changes the subject.
April 18th, 2006 at 10:44 am
EP you have lost the argument again and again but you keep coming back for more…
Various verses can be produced to show there is Hell?
You tell me what the Hebrew and Greek words inerrantly translated as the one english word ‘Hell’ actually mean - I asked you this before but you have yet to answer me.
I think we’ve been over this, you just fail again and again to see the truth.
I have setup straw men? Why - because I have refuted your weak arguments and your google cut ‘n paste nonsense?
You say that the Lake of Fire and the Fires of Gehenna are literal but never explain why the other segments of these verses and books are not - it is because you are unable to do so isn’t it?
You say that because biblical scholars down through the ages agree on your depraved concept it must be true?
Many believed the earth was flat and the sun rotated around the earth not so long ago too - have you forgotten this?
The Catholic church extracted ‘indulgences’ from people not too long ago EP and they believed they were right - can you tell me that made it correct?
If taking the ’sum of God’s word’ as truth is ’setting up straw men’ then I too am guilty of this as was David, The apostle John and every other prophet who spoke of the enduring love and mercy of God.
It is you, NOT ME EP who relegate God to the worst act of Terrosim and Genocide we will ever see.
As for the Greek word Pur which you had not a clue about prior to me showing you I simply pointed out that the Fire being spoken of in Gehenna is not necessarily literal Fire. This is EVEN more the case when according to you the first part of each verse is not literal but symbolic.
“Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?” Jeremiah 23.29
There it is EP, more literal fire yes?
I even pointed out the scripture in Jeremiah where the Israelites indulged in the wicked practice of casting live babies into literal flames.
What was God’s response to this?
“For the children of Judah have done evil in My sight says the Lord; they have set their abominations (extremely disgusting and shamefully vile things) in the house which is called by My name to defile it. And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of Ben-hinnom (son of Hinnom), to burn their sons and daughters in the fire (in honor of Molech, the fire God) – WHICH I DID NOT COMMAND, NOR DID IT COME INTO MY MIND…” Jeremiah 7.30-31
Your argument is not with me brother EP but with the ’sum of Gods word’. I shall pray for you
WIGGY
April 18th, 2006 at 11:58 am
here we see our wiggy at his best.
He says he has refuted bible verses but he hasn’t.
What does he say about the bible verses I quoted.
Is it Santa Claus being talked about?
Again he brings up being literal and then has the audacity to say someone has said it.
note how our wiggy has now changed his tune on what pur can be after being so solid previously.
but we then come to our Wiggy’s version of justice.
If he is the judge and you have committed a crime don’t worry you won’t be punished. why not. Because our wiggy is a loving person.
you can go home scot free even though you are unrepentant about the crime.
What is the punishment for the crime of sin Wiggy?
note also how our wiggy ignores Revelations which indeed he must to believe his heretical tripe. Strange how the people are divided up into those who follow Satan and those who follow God!
If he is consistent in his belief then he must also believe Satan will be rehabilitated!
Actually our wiggy’s style is very similar to the KJV only crowd.
Which leads me to think he doth protests too much about cut and pasting because that his tool of trade!
April 18th, 2006 at 12:49 pm
He says he has refuted bible verses but he hasn’t -
You’re a fool EP - I am not ‘refuting bible verses’ I am simply explaining them in the context of the entire word of God whereas you are not.
We are told that the ’sum of God’s word is truth’.
We must look at these things in the context of the ENTIRE word of God.
but we then come to our Wiggy’s version of justice -
I NEVER implied that justice would not be served.
Read the previous posts EP.
One can hardly call an eternity in literal flame for 70 years of sin justice can they?
note also how our wiggy ignores Revelations -
When did I ignore it you sausage? I pointed out to your thick-witted intellect that it is stupidity to take the Lake of fire as literal without taking the candlesticks and many faceted beasts as ALSO being literal.
You still have not explained to me why you think you can do that -
I’m waiting…
Actually our wiggy’s style is very similar to the KJV only crowd -
No I don’t think so EP - The KJV is definately not the best translation.
As I pointed out to your Pharisee brother True Gospel there have been well over 2000 documented changes to that version from 1611 till now.
Would I have said this if I thought it were ‘the bomb’?
note how our wiggy has now changed his tune on what pur can be after being so solid previously -
How did I change my tune?
As stated before you had not a clue what the word fire even was in Greek. You still have not answered my questions to you EP re the origin of the words (yes words EP - Plural, more than 1) translated as Hell.
Show us your wisdom oh great EP.
EP you still have not answered any of my questions to you - Why is that?
Is it because you a an inerrant dolt who has nothing more than an idol of the heart to lean on? You are so set in your error you just WILL not admit that you could possibly be wrong.
You still cannot refute anything I have said - you are searching for ways to contradict me but you have none.
You have not even thought through the consequences of your belief have you?
According to creationist people the earth by biblical standards is approx 8,000 years old.
Let’s say that by the time Christ appears and sets up shop we are
10,000 years old.
According to you EP God will torment poor souls in literal flame for well beyond this time.
Isn’t there a point where God’s wrath will overshadow his Mercy?
I mean after 100,000 years of this torture who would remember his mercy when these poor people are still being fried?
You can’t answer that can you EP?
You have not a clue what you are talking about…
WIGGY
April 18th, 2006 at 1:24 pm
So, Wiggy what about an anhilationist position. As Jesus says, ” fear him who can destroy body and soul in the Gehenna”?
the rev
April 18th, 2006 at 1:33 pm
Ah Rev - at last someone who has the sense to *argue* sensibly and with coherancy.
Good question Rev - this verse was a head spinner for me too for a season.
Here is a cut and paste from a paper *I* have written (ie - not a google search job ala our ‘Grand master of the cloth’ EP)…
There are some other scriptures that speak of ‘destruction’ in the fires of Geenna and we shall now examine what these pertain to and what ‘Destruction’ actually means.
“…And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be afraid of him who can destroy both soul and body in Geenna…” Matthew 10.28, Amplified Version.
“…I tell you, My friends, do not dread and be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have nothing more that they can do.
But I will warn you whom you should fear; fear him who, after killing, has power to hurl into Geenna; yes, I say to you, fear him!”
Luke 12.4-5, Amplified Version.
The word translated ‘Destroy’ is a Greek word Apollumi and it is also translated as ‘Lost’ many times in the New Testament scriptures.
As we shall see below, the word of God shall again interpret itself as to the usage and correct meaning of Apollumi.
“…Whoever finds his life will lose (Gk; Apollumi) it and whoever loses (Gk; Apollumi) his life on my account will find it…”
Matthew 10.39
“…For the son of man came to save that which was lost
(Gk; Apollumi)…” Matthew 18.11
“…For what does it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and ruins or forfeits or loses
(Gk; Apollumi) himself?”
Luke 9.25
“…What man of you, if he has a hundred sheep and should lose
(Gk; Apollumi) one of them does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness (desert) and go after the one that is lost (Gk; Apollumi) until he finds it?” Luke 15.4
“…Because this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost
(Gk; Apollumi) and is found!” Luke 15.24 (Story of the prodigal son).
“…For the son of man came to seek and save that which was lost
(Gk; Apollumi)…” Luke 19.10
“…And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should not lose (Gk; Apollumi) any of all that he has given me, but that I should give them life and raise (them all) up (from the dead) at the last day…”
John 6.39
“…But even if our Gospel (the glad tidings) also be hidden (obscured and covered with a veil that hinders the knowledge of God), it is hidden only to those who are perishing (Gk; Apollumi) and obscured (only) to those who are spiritually dying and veiled (only) to those who are lost (Gk; Apollumi)…” 2 Corinthians 4.3
It is clear once you examine the scriptures that Appolumi refers to a state of being lost, NOT annihilated or totally blotted out of existence.
Jesus also says quite clearly and plainly that he has come to save that which is Apollumi.
Those who are currently Apollumi are also likened to sheep that Jesus says he will at some point go after.
Lost? Yes. Destroyed, as we understand the word to mean? No.
We also know from New Testament scripture that God will eventually destroy death.
In 1 Corinthians 15.26 we read –
“…The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death…” K.J.V
The word used here for destroy though is a vastly different one and it’s implications are clear.
Katargeo (The Greek word used for ‘Destroy’ in the above scripture) means to do away with or abolish and in the Amplified Version, it is once rendered as ‘Vanish’ (2 Corinthians 3.13).
This is a fitting description of what Katargeo entails.
“…By abolishing (Gk; Katargeo) in his (own crucified) flesh the enmity (caused by) the law with its decrees and ordinances…” Ephesians 2.15, Amplified Version.
“…(It is that purpose and grace) which he now has made known and has fully disclosed and made real (to us) through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who annulled (Gk; Katargeo) death and made it of no effect…” 1 Timothy 1.10, Amplified Version
Is Katargeo ever used in reference to God exacting vengeance upon Humankind?
Answer – No
Did Jesus ever use the word Katargeo in reference to the fires of Geenna?
Answer – No, he most certainly did not.
Isn’t there at least one scripture that references Katargeo to sinners or a state of eternal torment?
Answer – No there is not!
The annihilationist position is *far more merciful* than that of our brother EP however it still deny’s the power of Christ to save every last person.
It degrades a perfect sacrifice because it will achieve imperfect results.
WIGGY
April 18th, 2006 at 1:44 pm
And saying that Christ’s sacrifice must save EVERYONE or it is imperfect denies free will. Sort of Calvinism without Calvin.
April 18th, 2006 at 1:44 pm
oops our dear wiggy is getting a wee bit stroppy.
Try these verses wiggy.
various verses can be produced to show there is hell.
Matt 3:12, 23:33, 13:42, 50, Jude 13, Rev 21:8.
what are they on about if not hell?
and again none of that nasty revelations book when you do talk about it bring in the straw man of a literal lake in flames of whom only wiggy talked about.
oh by the way as Luke would tell you pharisee is a noun not an adjective and it appears you are another one who doesn’t understand the term not that I am surprised at that.
Justification seems a bit redundant in your theology old chap no matter what the language you use. those unrepentant souls in chapter 9 of Revelations can scarcely claim it yet you claim they must get it!!
God’s mercy is enveloped on those who accept Jesus as Lord.
He chose those just as he chose Abel.
you are merely echoing similar sentiments to people like Peter Carnley who believes that if Jesus took our punishment on the cross it is the worst form of child abuse known!
you take it on yourself to know the true punishment for sin. Again I am not surprised.
April 18th, 2006 at 2:19 pm
But Wiggy contextually it would seem not to make any sense to say they are lost.
Do not fear those that can kill the body, but fear him who can lose your soul and body in Gehenna.
And if Hades (one of the other words translated hell incase you are wondering Homer) is cast into the Gehenna and that is called the second death. It would appear that your justification of this is trying to force your view into a box that does not fit it. Whether you take Gehenna and Hades to be literal at this point, would not seem to matter, as their is a destruction that is called or likened unto death at this point.
?
the rev
April 18th, 2006 at 3:58 pm
In regards to EP please desist from your nonsensical rabblings.
I have compiled something here from Revelation that I feel proves that the Lake of Fire is symbolic and not literal. Please feel free to debunk me if you can…
Chapter 4, Was a literal trumpet “talking” with John?
Chapter 5, Is Jesus Christ literally a “Lion,” an “animal?”
Chapter 6, Are these literal “horses?” Do the literal stars of heaven fall on the earth? The smallest known stars are a million times larger than the earth.
Chapter 7, Were angels literally holding back four “winds” on four literal “corners” of the earth? I thought the earth is round without corners? Can one literally wash his clothe “white” in red “blood?”
Chapter 8, Will a an angel cast a literal mountain burning with fire into the sea?
Chapter 9, During the fifth trumpet will it literally be impossible for mortal men to die?
Will there be literal locusts shaped like “horses?” Locusts that literally have “hair like a woman, teeth like a lion, and breastplates of iron?” LOCUSTS with breastplates of “iron?”
Chapter 10, Did John eat a literal book? That was literally sweet in his taste buds, but literally bitter in his stomach? Why would anyone “eat” a literal book?
Chapter 11, Are God’s two witnesses that prophecy, literally two olive trees and two candlesticks? But if we study Zechariah 4 we can determine what is meant by “two witnesses.”
Chapter 12, Will there literally be a pregnant woman “clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars?” Was this same woman able to literally “fly into the wilderness with wings of an eagle?”
Chapter 13, Will there be a literal lamb that will speak like a dragon? Just how do dragons “speak” anyhow?
I look forward to your literal explanation of these things EP.
WIGGY
April 18th, 2006 at 4:16 pm
Re my point is that Apollumi is the word inspired by the Holy Spirit and it clearly through other use in scripture does not denote being blotted out.
Surely if God wanted to warn us of annilhation in Gehenna he would have used the correct word for that - Katargeo?
The phrase ’second death’ is only EVER used in revealtion and as *most* agree on, it is a book of symbols and signs.
The symbols are not the truth themselves but rather the symbols point to a particular truth.
Contrary to what most believe Rev, Christ spoke in parables so people wouldn’t understand… See this verse here -
“And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is NOT GIVEN” Matthew 13.10
The parables of Jesus are certainly true, but they are not literally true.
Same can be said of Revelation - it is one almighty parable.
Example: one cannot possibly put a “beam” (a large piece of lumber) in or out of one’s eye, Mat. 7:3-5.
The moral of this parable is certainly a great truth.
The symbols used to teach that truth (namely a large piece of lumber in one’s eye or the fires of Gehenna) is, of course, not literally or possibly true. The beam represent a huge character flaw, not foreign matter in one’s eye, It’s a figure of speech.
Here are some more pertinent scripture Rev that I feel totally defends the character of God as loving and humane rather than debasing him into a monster who tortures his own children -
“With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when Thy judgments are in the earth, THE INHABITANTS OF THE WORLD WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS”
Isaiah 26:9
There will come a time when those who only knew how to blaspheme the name of God, will come to LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS.
They will not just “hear” of righteousness, no, they will actually “LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS”
The whole book of Isaiah speaks of judgments on Israel and on the nations. But the end of all these judgments is SALVATION TO ALL.
Notice Isa. 45:22-23,
“Look unto me, and BE YE SAVED, ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by Myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness [as in, ‘For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth,’ I Tim. 2:4] , and shall not return, That unto me EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, EVERY TONGUE SHALL SWEAR” (See also: Phil. 2: 9-11 & I Cor. 12:3).
God’s words will NOT return empty or void. When God speaks, it will be done. When God wills, it will be done.
When God desires, His desires WILL BE DONE:
“Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND, and I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE … I have spoken it, I WILL ALSO BRING IT TO PASS; I HAVE PURPOSED IT, I WILL ALSO DO IT” Isaiah 46.10-11
This is a big topic Rev, hopefully that is something to think about at least?
WIGGY
April 18th, 2006 at 4:37 pm
here we see our wiggy at his wiggly best.
He again brings up the literal interpretation which ONLY he has talked about. As yet again he brings in numerous strawmen he avoids like the plague the end of Revelation 9 where people who have been judged are still unrepentant.
We are left wondering why people people are divided into Satan’s and God’s.
We are still wondering how he can believe in justification and universalism.
Tell us how unrepentant people are justified for a start?
now we have gone from symbolism to parables. Whereas will our wiggy take us. Who knows.
He still avoids the bible verses I have mentioned.
yes rev I did know that but don’t tell our wiggy!
April 18th, 2006 at 5:10 pm
You answer at least ONE of mine EP and I’ll another of yours.
“He again brings up the literal interpretation which ONLY he has talked about”
Really? Is it me suggesting literal flame and fire EP?
You really must be a bit simple I think, it appears you cannot recall what it is you are arguing with me about.
It’s you NOT ME suggesting literal interpretation of the ‘Lake of Fire’ in Revelation and the ‘Fires of Gehenna’.
I suggest you read over your previous posts and clarify in that befuddled brain of yours exactly what you think it is you’re arguing about.
“now we have gone from symbolism to parables”
Are you really so stupid EP? How old are you? 12?
What pray tell is the difference in your mind between symbolism and parables?
“He still avoids the bible verses I have mentioned”
I have answered these IN DEPTH.
You have yet to answer a single question of mine you arrogant chop.
I think all you’ve ever had are taunts and jibes EP, that’s it isn’t it?
You’ve got no real response to anything I’ve asked you…
Go visit another thread causen your done here.
P.S - Aren’t you missing Playskool now?
WIGGY
April 18th, 2006 at 6:17 pm
The fact is contextually your word, though inspired by the Holy SPirit does not make sense, how could God lose them in the lake of Fire?
And bro, please, I am not a simpleton, I understand the use of symbol, and I don’t need a lecture about symbolism and parables.
the rev
April 18th, 2006 at 6:21 pm
And bro, please, I am not a simpleton, I understand the use of symbol, and I don’t need a lecture about symbolism and parables.
Rev that was *NOT* to you but rather the hard of heart EP.
Rev are you suggesting that God couldn’t have used the right word if that’s what he really meant?
WIGGY
April 18th, 2006 at 6:25 pm
I am suggesting that contextually the word means death. Can you suggest how the meaning you propose makes any sense? How can God lose someone in the lake of fire? And how contrasting against those that can kill the body, could it even mean such?
the rev
April 18th, 2006 at 6:30 pm
“A-1, apollumi, [Verb, 622] a strengthened form of ollumi, signifies “to destroy utterly;” in Middle Voice, “to perish.” The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being. This is clear from its use, as, e.g., of the marring of wine skins, Luke 5:37; of lost sheep, i.e., lost to the shepherd, metaphorical of spiritual destitution, Luke 15:4,6, etc.; the lost son, Luke 15:24; of the perishing of food, John 6:27; of gold, 1 Pet. 1:7. So of persons, Matt. 2:13, “destroy;” Matt. 8:25, “perish;” Matt. 22:7; 27:20; of the loss of well-being in the case of the unsaved hereafter, Matt. 10:28; Luke 13:3,5; John 3:16 (ver. 15 in some mss.); 10:28; 17:12; Rom. 2:12; 1 Cor. 15:18; 2 Cor. 2:15, “are perishing;” 2 Cor. 4:3; 2 Thess. 2:10; Jas. 4:12; 2 Pet. 3:9. Cp. B, II, No. 1. See DIE, LOSE, MARRED, PERISH” (W. E. Vine, Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words).
April 18th, 2006 at 6:41 pm
“The idea is not extinction but ruin” - Exactly my point Rev.
“If any man’s work shall be burned, HE SHALL SUFFER LOSS: but he himself shall be saved (not extinguished); yet so as by fire.
1 Corinthians 3.15
Any other thoughts Rev?
WIGGY
April 18th, 2006 at 6:46 pm
Do you care to comment on the scriptures I presented from Isaiah Rev?
What are your thoughts on those?
WIGGY
April 18th, 2006 at 7:08 pm
good ole wiggy.
He avoids comments of bible verses that destroy his silly heresies and then has the effrontery to say he has replied.
I love the way he just keeps on saying other people bring up the literal actually said the symbolic was used because we are talking about the afterlife but hey why let facts get in the way of a wiggy spray.
so there we have it.
He can’t and won’t answer simple questions because he can’t.
He blusters away in bringing up red herrings or straw men because of this.
and our wiggy talks of taunts and jibes which is in effect all he does.
just for wiggy.
Gehenna came to be used metaphorically for for the hell of fire, the place of everlasting punishment for the wicked.
This understanding is discernible in Jewish apocalyptic literature such as 11 Esd 7:36.
The talmudic literature is full of it.
Our wiggy mightn’t understnd it but the people of Jesus’s day sure did!!