Geoff Bullock article take two
A while ago we gave a heads up to an article about Geoff Bullock which was due to be published in the Australian back in October. They apparently changed their minds for a while (because he was uninteresting or something) but Geoff mentions that it is now due to be published in the Weekend Australian this weekend. We will try to link up or scan a copy for overseas commenters when it comes out.
Geoff has graciously agreed to discuss the article with us here at signposts. This is pretty vulnerable of him given that, as many of you will realise, Geoff has been pretty circumspect in the media about the fallout of his time at Hills Christian Life Centre (although on this site he has already been graciously open).
UPDATE - the full text of the article is here
May 18th, 2006 at 9:48 am
I’m going to get shot down here, but, I’m going to say my piece, and Ill try to keep it short..unusual, I know. Gentlemen, this is a site where all are welcome. If, however, you feel it is your God given right to come here and try to save our souls from whatever irks you and your spiritual sensitivities, can I politely suggest you go elsewhere. Homer, and all who share your partial concepts of grace, somehow you seem to be able to hijack every thread and turn it into a discussion, no judgement, about gays. I sorry, I’m sick of it. I enjoy the broader discussion here. We know you disagree. We disagree with you. So please, why not just leave Lance and Reve and all of us alone. Leave us a link to your sites, and if we wish to get our souls bloodied we’ll drop by to say hello.
May 18th, 2006 at 10:00 am
Geoff,
a typical comment from someone who can’t bring a biblical point of view to the topic.
By the way I didn’t bring this subject up!!
May 18th, 2006 at 10:28 am
To Greg the Explorer….I am a little surprised and at your bishops support and yet I think I agree with him.
May 18th, 2006 at 10:33 am
Bring Back EP at LP,
You are not God. How arrogant of you to presume to say who can and cannot be a follower of Jesus Christ. Blind brothers like you, full of hatred and bigotry and self-righteousness cause me to burn with anger, wishing you harm. Is that being a good Christian, Homer? Provoking others? Tempting others to sin?!
How I pray that God would smite you with blindness, as He did the Apostle Paul. There was purpose in that, you know. Paul (Saul) was blind to the fact that Jesus really was the Christ, the Savior, the Redeemer. He was a Jew of Jews and rejoiced in the persecution, abuse and murders of the early followers of Jesus. God had to get his attention in a big way before his heart and eyes could be truly open to the truth.
I only feel two emotions for you, Homer: Pity because of the heartbreak you inflict upon our God, and Anger because of the heartbreak you inflict upon your fellow man. (there alone you’ve broken the two greatest commands, according to Jesus. On those two hang the entire Law).
God loves Mercy, Homer. There is none in you (except that with which you grace yourself and YOUR sins). And God loves Justice, Homer. Your idea of justice is warped. I think you believe justice would be served if God destroyed all the Gays and Lesbians of the world, due to their obvious lack of true repentance. That’s pretty sick.
Here’s God’s idea of justice, Homer………Blood.
But not mine, mind you, and not yours…..
It is Jesus’ blood that has justified many, including me. Justice has already been served, for those who’s faith is in Christ alone.
For those of you that continue to persecute, abuse, and murder what belongs to Him (to God), a day of reckoning will soon come. For those of you that continue trying to inflict and implement your idea of justice, penalty and judgement on those already covered and justified by His blood, God’s wrath will break out against you like a fierce Tsunami. Are you so thick headed as to think that your Creator will bow to you, saying, “Yes, Homer, you are right. I suppose I shouldn’t let those dirty nasty Homersexuals into my heaven. Yes, I agree Homer…..Jesus on the Cross was a really big mistake. The “blood thing” just didn’t take with those Homersexuals. Even after they decided to have faith in Jesus, they never did repent (little shits). You’re right Homer. Let’s go with your plan……torch the abominable little sons of bitches. Keep them out of the church. Treat them as the dirt under your feet. Yes, Homer, let’s de-humanize them. Maybe eventually, it will be socially acceptable to murder and enslave them. Your plan for justice is so much better than mine, Homer. What was I ever thinking sending JC to that god forsaken little garbage dump called earth (my creation). Boy I really fucked up with that.”
Pity and Anger, Homer. What a beautiful legacy to leave. Not to be remembered as a kind-hearted, gentle, loving man of faith, but remembered as a Saul. Remembered as persecutor. Remembered as a man that murdered the hope, the purpose, and the spirit of lost men in need of a Savior.
Lance is the apple of God’s eye, you ruthless, brutal, deceiver of men. Don’t you perceive that he is created in His Father’s image? Oh, no…..I forgot. You are blind.
The fierce love that any parent has for his child, is the same love that God has for Lance and has for you and has for me (what’s more, it is a perfect and pure love). I would think twice about laying a finger on a child of God.
What a unique example we see in you, Homer. You’re a tool of the enemy. Insighting man against man, and trying to deny other men and women access to their Creator, their Savoir and their brothers and sisters.
But you are blind to this as well, blinded by the god of this age.
Please understand that when I say this Homer, this isn’t personal (I don’t even know you) and this isn’t really even directed at You, but rather what is in you……
get behind me satan.
May 18th, 2006 at 10:37 am
By the way, Homer, I’m gay and I’m a child of God. If you have a problem with that, you need to discuss it with my Father……he told me to avoid people like you.
Trading Ashes For Beauty
Ron Viers
USA
May 18th, 2006 at 10:47 am
Grace to you.
Tell me where can you find in the life of Christ the attitude you display towards your brothers and sisters? Tell me, in any of the words that Jesus said and lived, where can you find your words. Now before you quote me Paul, don’t. Quote me Jesus. And, before you quote me “Go away and sin no more, or leave your life of sin” tell me when you expect to achieve this in your own life, without grace. When Paul and Jesus quoted the law it was in terms of not nulifying it, but super-exceeding it by grace and grace alone. It was to prove that any righteousness, any at all, was never to be found by doing lawful things, it was by being under the fullfilment of the law, that is grace. I know the scriptures. In my former life I was actually the principal of a Bible College. Do I insult you in return? No.
By the way I didn’t bring this subject up!!… I am sorry, but this all you talk about. You major on sin.
You continue to use your thoelogy as a weapon. You cannot allow the word to become buried in the flesh of Christ, seeing it fullfilled on the cross in it’s human divinity. You cannot accept that mankind’s seperation from God is far deeper and darker than our sexual orientation. In this, you are erring on the side of self righteousness. When you are confronted by anything that reeks of the compassion of Christ you drag out half a passage of paul and quote it out of context. Do you realise that falling from grace is falling back into law. Do you realise that Paul’s response to you would be to tell you to mutilate yourself? He would say of you “Beware of the dog”. You are adding works to the law. You are making one sin more righteous than the other. How can you, whilst pleading grace for your seperation from God, scream sinner at an equally damned soul?
Can’t you see it? You are equally damned as a homosexual child molester. You are as equally damned as Osama bin Laden. You are as equally self righteous as Hitler, Idi Amin, and the 9/11 terrorists. Can’t you see the self righteous presumption in your words?
You are a damed soul to whom has been given grace.
How dare you gloat in it whilst snatching it from a fellow sufferer
So, go away and sin no more. When you can perfect that, then come back and judge us. However, if somehow you manage to achieve that, you would more likely take up your cross and die for us.
May 18th, 2006 at 10:49 am
has anyone heard from the Rev lately? he always adds some spice to the conversation.
May 18th, 2006 at 10:51 am
He’s a busy beaver at the mo from what I gather:
http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/05/12/the-cave/
May 18th, 2006 at 10:55 am
Taby, Geoff etal please please please understand the difference between repentance of sinners and unrepentant sinners.
It hasn’t NOTHING to do with go away and sin no more.
That is simply very poor exegesis and NOTHING to do with the subject.
Geoff, do I take it you would have said no to Paul in lieu of 1 cor 5.
By the way give ONE just ONE example of gloating.
This is all about teaching people simple biblical doctrine.
nothing more nothing less.
May 18th, 2006 at 11:05 am
PS My dearly graced Homer. I AM, a divorcee, and adulterer, a fornicator, a lier, a drunkard, a cheat, a thief, a hater, a curser, a persecutor, and a totally fallen man. In that state, without any hope of redemption, any hope of truly being able to turn my life around I celebrate God’s love for me, a crucifier of his son, with his son’s words. “Father forgive them”. And, my friend, I do that knowing that I have a hammer in one hand and some nails in the other, a whip lays at my feet, my hands are bruised from bashing the crap out of the face of grace, and I am covered by the blood and flayed flesh of my victim. That my friend is what mankind is forgiven of.
May 18th, 2006 at 11:15 am
I laugh at your ignorant understanding of the bible Homer - you are a slave to your immaturity and anger. Tell us why you feel you have to attack with scripture? You said
Actually marriage is a commitment made before God. It aint a piece of paper.
Well actually my fine feathered friend relationship is a committment before God and marriage is a pice of paper. The marriages you see in churches today are a million miles from what occured in Jesus’ time or even in the early years oif the church. In fact it was a rarity that mnistly only the well off participated in.
So in short…well you can fill in the rest I’m sure!
May 18th, 2006 at 11:45 am
Just so you know…I am the poster formerly known as Take a bloody look at yourself homer
May 18th, 2006 at 11:48 am
mannnnn…
I want to know why Homer is so obsessed with homosexuality?
I’m serious Homer - why? What is it in your past, in your friendships, in your family, that makes you so obsessed with this, above other personal characteristics?
I just don’t get it…I just don’t get why it’s so interesting…
May 18th, 2006 at 12:07 pm
Geoff,
you still don’t get it. I am not surprised. Three ministers didn’t get it when there was a thread on this.
1 cor 5 has nothing to do with you or me nor has Matt 18: 15-17 although it is about the same subject.
There is a world of difference between a person committing any sin but repenting because they know it is sinful and a person who continues on believing it is okay.
In Corinth a man continued to live with his father’s wife.
They knew this was sinful but did nothing.
Why?
Perhaps they thought they shouldn’t judge him. Perhaps He said Jesus said nothing about incest when he was here so it was okay.
Perhaps some people said we can’t do anything because of grace just as wrong if the man was in a homosexual relationship, adulterous relationship.
It doesn’t matter.
this perhaps shows why liberal churches disappear. No beliefs and no discipline.
Learn to understand about judging.
We need to judge within the church. How many warnings are there about false teachers.
Tell me Geoff what would you do given what Paul has said in 1 cor 5.
Would you be judgemental and excommunicate him or let him continue at church?
Greg, what did Jesus say about marriage.
Hint it is a million miles to what you expressed!
Bec,
All I have done is expressed the biblical view here on homosexuality.
nothing more nothing less.
People don’t like it but note no-one could give any biblical evidence for homosexuality!
May 18th, 2006 at 12:26 pm
I don’t get why Homer is so obsessed with this!!
May 18th, 2006 at 12:27 pm
Homer you haven’t just “expressed a biblical view”…leaving aside the question of whether your view is “biblical” or not, it’s one you’ve expressed over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over…
May 18th, 2006 at 12:47 pm
The law is summed up by one word - love.
It seems that we get so concerned about what is “right” and “wrong” from a biblical perspective. The law is now obsolete - because love fulfills the law. Jesus was the ultimate expression of this fulfillment.
So rather than asking what is “right” and what is “wrong” from a moral and even Biblical perspective, the real question is what is loving.
If we went on a purely right and wrong according to a Biblical perspective, you could make a case that homosexuality, a man living with his Father’s wife (as in 1 Cor 5), divorce and remarriage, etc… are “wrong”. However, when put through the filter of what is loving, you may sometimes get a different perspective.
Is it loving for a gay man to be promiscous? I don’t think so.
Is it loving for a man to be living with his Father’s wife? The complications caused would say no.
Is it loving for a person to divorce? Sometimes yes, sometimes no - depending on the situation.
Is it loving for a homosexual to enter a monogomous same-sex committed relationship? If you journey with the persons involved, sometimes you realise that the answer is yes.
Is it loving to condemn people purely based on morality and Biblical “right” and “wrong” without knowing their pain? Only in extreme cases (I don’t think mass murder could ever be a “loving” act). Homosexuality is not one of those extreme cases….
Homer - let love rule - not morality…..
May 18th, 2006 at 12:56 pm
Bec,
and I will continue to.
It is called being faithful and unashamed of the Gospel.
Wayne,
I let God rule and unfortunately he disagrees with you.
May 18th, 2006 at 1:19 pm
Bec,
and I will continue to.
It is called being faithful and unashamed of the Gospel.
Wayne,
I let God rule and unfortunately he disagrees with you.
No you moron it’s called being faithful to your own version of what’s acceptable and whats not - it is not the Gospel - it is NOT good news for anyone - not even for you.
As for letting God rule - you seem to be equating the bible with God - God isn;t the bible my fine moronic friend - and the words you are quoting are Pauls words - not Gods - no matter how you paint it. sick of arguiing with you
from now on I will not respond to anything Homer writes - I encourage everyone to follow suit - hopefully you will soon get sick of posting rubbish - wheh yopu join in the conversation I will recommence responding to you.
Goodbye
May 18th, 2006 at 1:24 pm
Greg believes in a new canon.
In a marcion like crash he wants to rid the bible of Paul’s letters ( now that is very unmarcion like).
A pity Peter called them scripture. Paul thought so too.
So did the church but hey I am ashamed of what is in them so let us take no notice of them.
Just remember though I am a christian. I can make a case I just don’t let any of that bible nonsense get in the way of what I believe.
May 18th, 2006 at 2:14 pm
Duuuuh, Yo…..EP?? Homer?????
Peter and Paul were talking about the Old Testament.
They had no idea their writings would be canonized and called the New Testament.
Did you go to Seminary or Bible College EP? Just curious, because the way you throw around scripture and theology with such authority (and arrogance), I would infer that you did.
But since you have such an elementary understanding of the Bible, thinking that Peter and Paul were calling their own letters scripture, maybe you’re not as learned as you would like others to believe you are?
I don’t blame you for your blindness EP. You’re not unique.
My emotions for you remain unchanged, though: Pity and Anger….
Tell us EP Homer, our brother in Christ, WHY are you a Christian? Tell us what makes you a Christian. How did you come to know Jesus? Share your testimony - - unless, of course, you’re ashamed?
May 18th, 2006 at 2:16 pm
Lance has stated previously that homosexuality is a ssin yet here he is criticising anyone who states that further gives credence to
Don’t play dumb Homer.
It’s your ‘package of beliefs’ that I have a problem with.
Your refusal to acknowledge and repent of your own sin, and your refusal to change and become more Christ-like while preaching that as an expectation of others.
Your belief that all fornicators (including homosexuals) should be brought before a court of law, prosecuted, and then be allowed to go home without any penalty imposed (previously referred to as ‘Homer’s Bonking Court’)
You absolutely completely and utterly point blank refuse to refer to the gospel of grace to sinners, through Christ’s blood sacrifice on the cross..and link that in any way to a gay person. (for that alone, you are to be thoroughly condemned as a Judaizer).
Your complete refusal to acknowledge anything in the bible that points to grace to gay people.
Homer, the belief system you present to us is a packet of shit, wrapped-in shit-coloured wrapping paper, and for some reason you expect it to be our job to find the jelly bean in your packet of shit.
Now in 1 cor 5, what is Homer’s ultimate purpose?
It’s to expel the ’sinner’ from Homer’s holy sight, eg. Homer’s ‘No Riff Raff’ rule (has anyone else noticed the similarity between Homer and Basil Fawlty?)
What is Paul’s intention in 1 cor 5?
That the man rooting his stepmother be restored (and Paul later acknowledges in 2 Corinthians that he was a bit over the top in his previous pronouncements about sinners in the fellowship…whether Paul was referring to this particular stepmother-rooting incident or not).
Paul’s intent with the man being ‘handed over to Satan so that his flesh may be destroyed so that his soul may be saved…rah rah rah…’ is another way of just saying…..’have a break from church, and see if all this stuff you’re doing is fulfilling, and if not…come back and join us..and we’ll go from there’.
Remember, 1 cor 5 has got to be read in the context of 2 Corinthians, where Paul apologises for being so heavy-handed in his previous pronouncements.
That Homer is obsessed (and Bec is right, Homer is obsessed) with the vindictive 1 cor 5 (minus its redemptive intent) without the qualifying passages of 2 Corinthians, shows that Homer is just a small-minded myopic Judaizer, who sees the bible as a way of inflating his own ego, through crushing those who don’t measure up.
My experience with most gay Christians is that they are boringly moral….. (to the extent of having specific policies in gay churches against sleeping around and boyfriend-shopping) although Ron’s experience is obviously different to that.
But since you’re so keen on 1 cor 5 Homer, what would you and the Puritans at Gladesville Anglican do if you found a brother, nay, a youth leader, who was producing music dedicated to the sexual abuse and mutilation of babies, and who was involved in inciting street unrest?
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=16416820
You would be arrogant like the Corinthians and turn a blind eye…and pat him on the back.
(nothing personal Leigh, but you’re deranged)
You’re a fucking hypocrite Homer.
May 18th, 2006 at 2:30 pm
taby, read the last chapters of Philippians or Thessalonians and then go to 2 Peter 3: 15-16.
Lance, what evidence do you have that the man in 1 cor 5 was reinstated because it ain’t in 2 Corinthians.
It would assist people if you actually read the bible.
but then if you read the bible you wouldn’t write such rubbish!
People who continue to act in sinful ways and believe they are doing no wrong have not received grace.
If they had they would not be acting so and the church would have no need to excommunicate them!
Actually Lance as I have showed you are the one acting the part or hypocrite as it was then enunciated.
you said previously homosexuality is sinful but all you try and to is bring up every loony idea of say homosexuality is alright.
May 18th, 2006 at 2:59 pm
I thought you would duck the Leigh Cartwright example, because it’s a real-life demonstration of what a hypocrite you ..and Gladesville Anglican are.
People who continue to act in sinful ways and believe they are doing no wrong have not received grace.
Then by your definition, you have not received grace Homer, because you continue to act in sinful ways, and see no wrong in it.
You can’t keep making these Pharisee pronouncements Homer, and then when it comes back to you and your church, making out that none of it applies.
Give someone enough rope……..
You’re stupid Homer, but you’re not that stupid that you can’t acknowledge your own and Gladesville Anglican’s blatant hypocrisy in this.
Or is that how Sydney Anglicans think; you don’t have to apply any of this in Sydney…but your role is to teach the rest of Australia where they’ve ‘gone wrong’?
May 18th, 2006 at 3:01 pm
And I hope all you readers are bloody entertained by this, because it’s hard work reasoning with a door-knob.
May 18th, 2006 at 3:13 pm
I”m laughing my ass off in the States and it’s 1:12am. I need to get to bed soon.
Yes, I appreciate your hard work Lance.
May 18th, 2006 at 3:31 pm
Love is the fulfillment of the law and of morality. God is love. Jesus is love. He came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it (Matt 5:17).
For example:
A lady is in a horrible marriage that ends in divorce. She later meets a wonderful man who is also divorced and treats her like a princess. They get married. It seems to “feel” right by everyone who knows them well. The reality is, it is adultery (Jesus Himself said so). However, the most loving thing in this situation is for them to get married. What do they do?
Which one do you follow. Morality or love?
Love is the fulfillment of the law (Romans 13:8-10).
Searching the scriptures for the moral right and wrong is not what Jesus would do. He would pursue the most loving action. So should we….
May 18th, 2006 at 3:36 pm
Homer,
I’m still waiting….you didn’t answer any of my questions:
Did you go to Seminary or Bible College EP? Just curious, because the way you throw around scripture and theology with such authority (and arrogance), I would infer that you did.
But since you have such an elementary understanding of the Bible, thinking that Peter and Paul were calling their own letters scripture, maybe you’re not as learned as you would like others to believe you are?
I don’t blame you for your blindness EP. You’re not unique.
My emotions for you remain unchanged, though: Pity and Anger….
Tell us EP Homer, our brother in Christ, WHY are you a Christian? Tell us what makes you a Christian. How did you come to know Jesus? Share your testimony - - unless, of course, you’re ashamed?
Come on, Homer old buddy, old pal…..my brother in Christ……you’re among friends. Let your hair down. Take off your coat and stay awhile. Dig deep inside the soul of “Homer” and knock our socks off. Give us a little peak at the Man behind the blog posts. I really value you as a person and everything you have to say. I know that you only have my very best interests at heart and that your only desire is to get me through those pearly gates. Come on now, EP, don’t shut us out. I’m seriously considering buying a pickup truck with a gun rack and converting to Heterosexualism. I can learn to drink beer and watch football and go to tittie bars. I’ll cancel my subscription to The Advocate immediately and run out and get a Playboy. I’m sure I can eventually train myself to be attracted to breasts. So there. That old Homosexuality thing is a thing of the past. It’s a miracle! EP, you’ve done it again. What a great testimony you’ll have at church on Sunday. Another notch in your Bible belt, having turned another abomination back to God. How cool are you, Homer?
By the way…..I’m still waiting for you to answer my questions.
May 18th, 2006 at 3:36 pm
Hello all
Can we get back to talking about the article in the Australian?
I was shocked to realize that the Hillsong church has an annual budget of 50 million or so, yet only spends around 3 million on welfare programmes in the community. Can these figures be right? Why would the church feel the need to invest in so much property?
May 18th, 2006 at 3:37 pm
Lance, you have always been the pharisee and it seems will always be one.
Wayne,
That is correct however love cannot be the against the law.
Bear in mind that in Jesus’s time divorce was given in some cases for the woman not cooking the meal the right way.
Adultery and fornication were rife.