Geoff Bullock article take two
A while ago we gave a heads up to an article about Geoff Bullock which was due to be published in the Australian back in October. They apparently changed their minds for a while (because he was uninteresting or something) but Geoff mentions that it is now due to be published in the Weekend Australian this weekend. We will try to link up or scan a copy for overseas commenters when it comes out.
Geoff has graciously agreed to discuss the article with us here at signposts. This is pretty vulnerable of him given that, as many of you will realise, Geoff has been pretty circumspect in the media about the fallout of his time at Hills Christian Life Centre (although on this site he has already been graciously open).
UPDATE - the full text of the article is here
May 18th, 2006 at 9:03 pm
My pleasure,
Lance, remain centrered if you under attack. Remember the whole of who you are. These “ppl” are likes sharks that smell blood, they will automatically seek out any gaps in your self-esteem & exploit them. Betray nothing personal to this person. I have just prayed for your psychic protection.
May 18th, 2006 at 9:50 pm
The problem with meeting psychopathic and other emotionally damagaing sorts of people in church life is that when you choose to walk the Christian walk you are encouraged scripturally to “die to self” “take up your cross and follow”, ignore the “thorn in the flesh” etc etc and sometimes you try so hard to do these things you don’t take notice of dangers to yourself and your soul till way too late. When something comes along that is physically or emotionally exhausting, we remind ourselved that “we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us” Things that should have served as a danger signal becomes another opportunity for us to endevour to overcome. Sometimes we discover too late.
Lance in #435 asks if churches such as AOG do psych testing prior to being credentialled -as recently as 3 or 4 years ago - no.
Maybe that has changed, however there is an equal lack of exit interviews for ministers, leaders etc within the church - for example organisations that work with mental health, family services, psychs etc must, as part of their resignation process, attend exit interview sessions to debrief on their time with the organisation and any issues that may have personally impacted them so their leaving is as “clean” as possible.
Most people leaving the church stumble out, and then struggle with the range of emotions unique to their own departure.
Their well known support network is now their former support network, and, if they are having a church break - short of walking up to people on the streets and asking “Hi! Have you ever left a church? How did that go for you?”, there are few places outside of church groups that one can meet people who have understand. If they’re lucky (or whichever way you choose to view it) they might stumble across support forums such as this and meet some like minded people.
Hats off to all who have had the guts to share some of their own experiences. Before I went through my own exit, I definitely towed the party line and would have responded to some of the thoughts expressed here with a gentle (or not so gentle) encouragement to put it all behind, die to self and become absorbed with the work of the church and all inward gazing would fade away.
Now I have a different view because the new ME is someone the old ME would have “followed up” to get them back into the fold and then disctanced from if the talk got too negative. Hope I never crushed anyone with my good intent back then.
May 18th, 2006 at 10:21 pm
Wayne (445) Say what you will. I note how many people here parade their sin, or are rude like you, or hack down anyone with a righteous opinion yet claim that salvation is theirs. You are totally deceived by the devil if you think deliberate, willful continued sin is covered by grace.
You guys can keep encouraging each others with your poppycock as much as you like but it will amount to no more than re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Reality is coming quickly the iceberg has already done its work. Repent while there is still a chance. The end of all things is near.
Put down your rainbow flags & take up the cross instead because you cant have both.
There are a lot of people here that are anti Pringle et al & with good reason but disliking wolves or being “oh so hurt” in a church is not what qualifies someone for heaven. Dont allow your hurt and the betrayal you have suffered bind you to those here who boldly declare lies as truth. Dont allow their bitterness to defile you any more.
Dont let blind guides like the deceived & disgraced former pastor Venn-Brown lead you astray with his homo heresy. He is now in league with the devil. WAKE UP!!!! Many of you are staggering towards distruction & soon it will be too late. Jesus is a God of grace & mercy but He is also a God of wrath & judgement.
While all this wickedness is being promoted here God is silent but that does not mean that He agrees with you as you tickle each others ears.
Psa 50:21 These things you have done and I kept silent; you thought I was altogether like you. But I will rebuke you and accuse you to your face.
Psa 50:22 “Consider this, you who forget God, or I will tear you to pieces, with none to rescue:
Take heed, forsake your sins & flee the wrath to come.
May 18th, 2006 at 10:38 pm
Homer - at 423 -
Bec, grow up.
I am merely standing up for the gospel.
No more no less.
I have merely stated homosexuality is condemned in the bible.
I asked for biblical support for the contrary position and got none.
not surprising since there is none.
Homer, read me carefully:
I worry because all you seem to care about is men having sex.
I am not being silly, I am not being immature.
All you ever do on this blog is rant about men who have sex.
You don’t seem to be interested in anything else.
Why is this? What is it in your life that makes you so passionate about this single issue?
May 18th, 2006 at 11:05 pm
Lance,
Post #412
“Most gay Christians is that they are boringly moral….. (to the extent of having specific policies in gay churches against sleeping around and boyfriend-shopping)”
Absolutely true, Metropolitan Community Church (in Petersham) Gay Youth are the most straight-backed, conservative, & uptight uni students i haver EVER come across. The OLDER Baby Boomers in the church are the radicals if anything & “boyfriend-shopping” is strictly frowned-upon. It is made up of a lot of old salvo’s with VERY old-fashioned ideas about church services. Real sticklers for depression.
Leigh from Gladesville Anglican? his same-age counterparts would be MORTIFIED at MCC, they wouldn’t know what to make of the contradictions of the guy!
Funny huh? The Jensenite Sydney Anglican linked to hate-groups & hate- rock & the Gay Christians who take their faith so seriously they can hardly crack a relaxed smile. What is Homer to make of such irony?
May 18th, 2006 at 11:09 pm
Sticklers for depression (Freud?) i meant tradition.
May 18th, 2006 at 11:28 pm
Foolish me,
Did i just suggest that Homer could see irony?
May 19th, 2006 at 8:15 am
Bec,
The issue doesn’t matter however biblical truth does.
Please note the lack thereof of the homosexuality is not sinful lobby.
A christian stands up for God and what he tells us.
May 19th, 2006 at 9:04 am
So what’s the story with this Leigh guy from Gladesville Anglican? I had a look at his sight, but wither I was too tired or too blind I couldn’t find the references to anything?
May 19th, 2006 at 9:31 am
Click on a few of his personal links, he makes no qualms about his love for conservative politics, war etc. I think his alter-ego is trying to compensate there for what he has to hide in church in order to fit in.
You know what though, i remember being this guys age & i remember being internally & externally homophobic, ultra-conservative prude with opinions about everything but experience in nothing, steeling myself against my own subconscious nature desperately by imposing my views on those around me (oh how i cringe in embarasment, now).
So i will not judge him.
Because, if he is not under the tutelage of someone like Homer, it’s most likely in 6 or 7 years time he will be trudging down King St Newtown in his duffle coat, with a nose-ring, with real friends he never met in the church & thinking “why the hell was i ever involved in that place?’
May 19th, 2006 at 10:28 am
Oh,
& on the subject of shallow, glib, superficial leadership, did anyone see Geoffrey Robertson’s Hypothetical where BH was a “ahem” ….”panelist”?
The subject was “Australia under Attack” a hypothetical about the posibilty of Oz being a terror-target.
He was SO out of his depth & out of his league i wasn’t sure whether to laugh or feel embarased for him.
The poor programmers probably thought thay were getting an intellectual identity whom would make informed & insightful comments.
It seemed none of BH’s beasties (sorry, advisors) even clued him up beforehand about what he might say.
He looked so scared that he would be revealed as the blank & cypher & vacuum he is outside his own controlled world.
Check out the transcript at
http://sunday.ninemsn.com.au/sunday/cover_stories/transcript_1852.asp
May 19th, 2006 at 12:49 pm
Ok Homer, so what else does God tell us? Surely God has a lot of things to say? Why aren’t you equally interested in them?
May 19th, 2006 at 12:58 pm
the minute someone makes the equally absurd claim that a person can commit adultery or get drunk or steal or murder etal and continue to be a christian I will be there arguing one can’t
May 19th, 2006 at 1:15 pm
Homer, I know that if I drink more than 8 - 10 Bushmills (whisky) I begin to get tipsymand not be in 100% control of myself. I know this.
I had a few too many last night….am I a Christian?
May 19th, 2006 at 1:33 pm
Not if you do not think you have sinned and see no need to repent like our man in Corinth!
See bible exposition is that hard
May 19th, 2006 at 2:16 pm
adultery
drunkennes
stealing
murder
wow. that sounds like a gospel i’d be attracted to.
May 19th, 2006 at 3:06 pm
Just a comment on #328
Have you ever heard of “Love, & do as thou wilt”
That was Augustine and he said “Love *God* and do as you please.”
You might not like the reasoning that lead him to say that and what that also entails.
And another common misconception: Love is not some abstract quality. Love is not god. It is God who is love. Basic theology: begin with God then work down to the human level. (No I don’t want to get into a discussion on this but just want to point out common misconceptions about the Christian view of love)
May 19th, 2006 at 4:09 pm
Homer I think what you are really getting at is this -
“…If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and we walk in darkness, we lie and are not practicing the truth…” 1 John 1.6
I agree with Homer that ‘Grace’ is not a license to sin or a ‘get out of jail free’ card. I’m not pointing the finger at anyone but I think this is Homer’s point? Is that correct Homer?
However we need to bear in mind the following as well -
“…If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us…” 1 John 1.10
All of us have sinned and continue to do so as long as we remain in our bodies of flesh. We are all on different stages of our journey. Whenever we point the finger at someone we have 3 pointing back at ourselves…
hey, it’s just my 2 cents.
WIGGY
May 19th, 2006 at 4:18 pm
Not quite wiggy.
There is a hell of a difference between a person who gets drunk realises he has sinned and ask for forgiveness because he has repented and a person who believes he is a christian AND believes he can get drunk and there is nothing wrong with that.
Bear in mind virtually all sinful acts will be forgiven if asked with an open heart.
It matters not whether it is murder, lying or homosexuality.
May 19th, 2006 at 4:36 pm
Homer, do you believe being haughty is sinful and incompatible with being a Christian?
May 19th, 2006 at 6:52 pm
This seems like a valid comment to me, We are all on different stages of our journey.
As does, virtually all sinful acts will be forgiven if asked with an open heart.
It matters not whether it is murder, lying or homosexuality.
I dont know where TABY and others are in their journey; nor do i know how they came to be bound by the particular sin, nor do i know whether or not God may open their hearts and minds and grant them repentance … even as i need grace to repent. Nor do i knwo whether the God who searches the heart sees their sin or mine as the most putrid. All sin disgusts the Holy One. … just some musings
May 19th, 2006 at 8:38 pm
Have you ever heard of “Love, & do as thou wilt”
Yes, Alistair Crowley’s Thelema mystical system with its precepts of “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.” and “Love is the law, love under will.” I think Crowley meant by will the individuals higher or ultimate destiny. Crowley’s formative years were in a strict Plymouth Brethren background. He would probably be attracted to the liberal theology expressed on this website.
May 19th, 2006 at 10:06 pm
WOW, I just somehow came across this and boy has it opened up my eyes even more. I was “sexually abused” by a christian the-rapist while going to a “big” money hungry church and when I went to the church to ask for answers they backed away. OMGosh *angry* I have been trying to meet with them for the past 18 months about this and it makes me sick. The church told me that “any” christian counselor can “heal” you. It doesnt matter it there not qualified, God will use them to heal you. Yeah I know that God does use some people, but not just anyone….
The whole story made me angry, knowing that this stupid church has hurt other people and wont take responsibilty, arghh…..
May 19th, 2006 at 10:25 pm
Wow. Hi tears4ana. Thankyou for sharing a little bit of your story.
May 19th, 2006 at 10:33 pm
tears4anna, not sure if this is useful but the “Australia Says No” website has a confidential helpline phone numbers - http://www.australiasaysno.gov.au/. It might be of help to have a chat with a disinterested third party experienced in counselling.
May 19th, 2006 at 10:50 pm
therapist
the-rapist
lol! well done!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
There is no such thing as a “gay” Christian. you are either a “gay” or a Christian. You cant be both. Time to choose & time is running out.
May 19th, 2006 at 10:57 pm
And people wonder why I don’t go to church any more.
May 19th, 2006 at 11:06 pm
Anna, please email Phil and Dan, they run this site. They are really loving and understanding people. They will be able to help you. Don’t give up hope.
May 19th, 2006 at 11:32 pm
Depends whether you want someone to pray for you or to help you.
May 20th, 2006 at 9:33 am
Tears4anna… how utterly horrible. In Melbourne, CASA through the Royal Women’s Hospital offer assessment and free counselling for those who have experienced sexual assault… although it only lasts for 8 weeks I believe, so if you have the means to pay a counsellor to work through this on an ongoing basis it’s probably a better option. (There are probably equivalent organisations in other states).
Seeing the bastards in that church won’t meet with you, you might want to consider getting legal advice… even if you’re not interested in money for damages the threat of this will probably put the wind up the leadership, seeing it seems to be what they are mostly interested in. Bastards. Dan might be able to give you some pointers re. legal advice. The helpline counsellors Duck suggested might be able to give pointers also.
Prayer’s not a substitute for counselling or action… but I will pray for you.
You know Ducky, someone I love took a massive overdose of panadol a few days ago, and the hospital tests on Thursday indicated there would be total liver failure (which is quickly fatal without a transplant) So I rounded up a lot of pray-ers, and spoke to someone I know who seems to hear from God, who had an immediate sense nothing bad was going to happen. (weird, but one tries to hold on to these things). Last night the tests were remarkably better… I know you think all these things are coincidence, but I’ve had a sense God was at work… mysterious as that may seem.