Geoff Bullock article take two
A while ago we gave a heads up to an article about Geoff Bullock which was due to be published in the Australian back in October. They apparently changed their minds for a while (because he was uninteresting or something) but Geoff mentions that it is now due to be published in the Weekend Australian this weekend. We will try to link up or scan a copy for overseas commenters when it comes out.
Geoff has graciously agreed to discuss the article with us here at signposts. This is pretty vulnerable of him given that, as many of you will realise, Geoff has been pretty circumspect in the media about the fallout of his time at Hills Christian Life Centre (although on this site he has already been graciously open).
UPDATE - the full text of the article is here
May 20th, 2006 at 10:54 am
China Plate lol re that terrible story from tears4anna? You really have a heart don’t you? What compassion you display in your posts…
You and your ‘turn or burn’ theology will not be in the coming kingdom of God I can assure you of that.
If you don’t repent you’ll have your part in the Lake of Fire and all that nonsense will be burned out of you until you come to see that God is love and not a terrorist. You’ll eventually come to see that God’s goodness is what leads man to repentance and not the threat of some mythical hell-fire -
“…Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, and the forbearance and the long-suffering, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance…” Romans 2.4
It’s obvious from your posts that you do DESPISE the riches of God’s kindness China Plate - I feel very sad for you.
WIGGY
May 20th, 2006 at 11:31 am
Wiggy, what a load of tripe.
Tear4anna in post 473 made a joke. A very funny one at that. She hyphenated the word “therapist” herself turning a sex abuser counsellor (therapist) into “the-rapist”. Im sure she was glad someone recognised her wit. It was very clever. (Though Benny Hill used it in one of his skits back in the 70’s her application of it was first class).
It should have been obvious to you that was the case but you (and a lot of others here) seem to be oblivious to the obvious.
You got one thing right though, there will be no need of “turn or burn” theology in His coming Kingdom. The ones who didnt “turn” will be burning in hell so they wont be there.
Im very grateful for the kindness of God and do not despise it at all.
It just seems very nutty to me that so many of you here think it is ok to be involved in immorality & perversity & that some how Jesus (like a good fairy) will just accept you even though you believe & preach another gospel.
Hatred of hillsong is not the source of salvation, if it was, all of you here would be right as rain. There is worse false teaching here than there. They may steal your money but your homo doctrines steal souls.
Forsake your perversions and return to the Lord, the end is near. Be warned, you are staggering towards your destruction.
May 20th, 2006 at 11:43 am
Now that post was actually funny China Plate… LOL, you really are convinced of yourself aren’t you?
Who did Christ direct all of his criticism at when he bodily walked this earth CP?
Was it the homosexual community of his time?
The hookers, thievers and drunks?
The corrupt pagans?
Did he march into the Roman senate and have at them for engaging in orgies, gladiatorial events and slavery practices?
Nope China Plate, it was the established church system; the Scribes and Pharisees who received the highest and only criticism.
And here you are ever willing to preach from your bible of hell about a God who will forsake almost all of his creation to an eternity of endless torment.
You have not a clue about the things of God China, you’re stabbing in the dark with your eyes closed.
WIGGY
May 20th, 2006 at 1:35 pm
We love Jesus - we just don’t like what he had to say.
May 20th, 2006 at 3:27 pm
Back to the purpose of this thread……….
Long overdue, but Geoff, did you experience fear or dread when you spoke with the Australian? Did you expect a response from HS or any negative repercussions? Why did you agree to do the interview? For personal healing? Revenge? Other?
How has your “speaking out” helped or hurt you, in retrospect?
May 20th, 2006 at 3:51 pm
Wiggly - if Im wrong, guess what, all I miss out on is self justifying and continuing in a whole heap of sex drugs & rock & roll that I left behind to follow Jesus.
If you are wrong then 1 Cor 6:9 & Heb 10:26 applies to you & you lose big time. Turn from your sin and stop leading people into deception.
Sure, Jesus bagged out the scribes & the pharisees big time but He also wasnt slow to tell people to sin no more.
A big chunk of the pharisees problem was that they were blind & leading the blind into the ditch much in the same way that the homos & fornos here do.
What was one of the earlier suggestions? A youth leader might tell a confused kid that Jesus might have been a homo? You have to be joking! We could then tell a murderer that Jesus may have been a murderer because the Scriptures dont directly say that he wasnt?
That is exactly the sort blind guiding that Jesus attacked. Millstones are prepared for such perverted teachers. There is a judgement to come. Woe to those false teachers. (Its not all about the tithe you know).
Listen, time is short. Homosinfulality can be forgiven, it is not to be embraced - it is to be utterly rejected. Do not make a treaty with your enemy. Reject your sin and receive the grace that you treat as licence.
Wake up, wake up from your deception. I do not want you to burn in hell but to be saved!!!
May 20th, 2006 at 3:55 pm
Wiggy, Of course Jesus concentrated on countering the heresy of the Pharisees etal.
They had moved from faith to works based salvation.
They enabled Jews to avoid family responsibilities by donations to the Temple.
The whole system was stuffed. the O/T tells us that.
There weren’t any idiots proclaiming you could be Jewish and maintain homosexual relationships but there were idiots who thought the same about fornication and adultery.
Hence Jesus’s pronouncements on them.
Jesus certainly didn’t overturn the law to live by.
Indeed 1 cor 5 shows the punishment is different and the punishment in O/T times was for only unrepentants.
May 20th, 2006 at 4:04 pm
Geoff, it seems that you are not the only Guru that gets dumped from a Cult.
Here is the ‘Dear John’ letter that demonstrates how cults deal with influential people within their fold that no longer suit their business agenda.
http://www.geocities.com/eckcult/chapters/tmsm9.html
May 20th, 2006 at 5:30 pm
China Plate.. I think Anna was saying she was abused by a Christian therapist… as in councellor… she hyphenated the word to highlight the irony.. in the end, I took her post seriously as I am I sure everyone else did, except you. Do you think we erred? Are we to compassionate? She we have laughed it off? No. We have seen it happen time and time again. I am simply surprised by your glib dismissal of her. Boy, for your sake, I hope you are right. But, if you are wrong…..? What does that say?
TABY.. I was incredibly nervous. The simple act of telling the truth made me feel like I was doing something dark and disloyal. How sad is that, that after 10 years, I still feel beholden to hiding the truth and protecting the abusers.
I spoke up because I felt that the story that my faminly and I went through needed to be told. There are so many others who simply feel that they are all alone and evryone else is right and they are damned. I hope that they now know they have friends who know the abuse, the systematic denial of their own abilty to know God and experience a whole and fullfilling spirituality, and the consequences of seeking truth and having to make the unbelievably hard decisions to act upon it. It will make absolutiely no difference to Hillsong. I didn’t speak to attack them. I spoke to comfort their victims.
May 20th, 2006 at 5:53 pm
“she hyphenated the word to highlight the irony” Skillfully & humoursly done & I acknowledged that.
I am certain that was her intension, because, who hyphenates “therapist”?
Her story is tragic & Im not suprised to hear such a story but she cracked a joke & I laughed. There was no glib dismissal of her but an appreciaton of her wit.
Gee, if only I was a deceived homo or forno no one would have a problem but dear oh dear Im in trouble for chuckling when someone makes a funny?
No wonder so many of you people are so mixed up, the most simplest things are sooooo complex here.
Hillsong has so much more to answer for than I could ever imagine.
May 20th, 2006 at 8:09 pm
Hello Tears4Anna
I think the others on the board have given the best advice about seeking help from someone outside the church. See if you can find a female christian counsellor/psychologist. It might be a bit expensive for a while, but worth every penny. (Oh, and wouldn’t it be nice if you could send the bill to the church in which you were abused! You could certainly try!!)
You also may find some comfort from books written by or about other women who have been through the same experience. There is an excellent one called-
“Sex in the Forbidden Zone: When Therapists, Doctors, Clergy, Teachers and Other Men in Power Betray Women’s Trust” (Paperback)
by Peter Rutter MD.HarperCollins Publishers (January 9, 1995)
ISBN: 1855384604
Not sure how easy it is to get, but a good christian bookstore will try for you, or they may have something similar in stock.
Also look out for some good books for women who have suffered sexual abuse by christian author called Dan Allender.
These may provide some understanding and comfort.
God bless
Ann
May 20th, 2006 at 8:19 pm
Dear Geoff
I have a couple more questions. I noticed in one of your earlier posts that you used to be a Bible College president. Can you give us a bit of a summary of the main problems you see with Hillsong’s theology?
Thanks in advance.
May 20th, 2006 at 8:33 pm
Ana, I a soo sorry to hear what happened to you and that you are now trying to get your life in some sort of order without their help or acknowledgement. I can’t add any more suggestions to the ones already posted, as they all make a lot of sense in what they are saying and have pointed you in some great directions.
I note Janet #480 suggested you tell them you are considering legal action. Whilst the threat alone could well be an effective tool (depending on which church you are talking about), think long and hard before actually engaging in a legal battle.
If they are a big church, as you say, they probably have far better resources, financially, emotionally and tactially, to fight this action than you have to throw at it.
In my line of work I have had much to do with the legal system and many in the legal field would agree that winning a legal case is often not about who is right or wrong, it is about who has the best argument on the day, which is why it can boil down to who has the best lawyer. A church would probably have a better fighting fund than you and more than one church battle has been funded by a wealthy church member willing to throw his wealth and resources behind their church - or a law firm does “pro bono” work, which gives them a tax relief - churches often get this sort of legal counsel as well.
Janet, I don’t mean to disprect what you say, but just a further thought from someone who has seen it all happen, and Janet I really hope your friend who OD’ed is improving well.
Ana I wish you the very best, if you want any insight re legal matters pls feel free to get my email from Dan or Phil but I hope for now that you are starting to get the help and support you need for yourself.
May 20th, 2006 at 9:28 pm
Dear Geoff
Congratulations. I have just read your rewrite of the song “Refresh my heart” and it is just perfect!
I have long felt that many modern worship songs are very focused on “me” and “I” but you have refocused the song onto the attributes of Jesus Christ and the work “He” does in our lives. Good job!
May 20th, 2006 at 9:46 pm
Tears4Ana, I agree with Lori. I have friends who work in this field of law (and churchgoing Christians incidentally), and more than once I have taken people for a drink while they ranted and raved about a settlement they reached with a big, powerful church over this very issue. I think that it’s really, really worthwhile seeking out the assistance of a group like CASA, but having seen several friends go through court processes as victims and as lawyers, I have to say I’m increasingly cynical about it. CASA’s great because they offer everything - lawyers, counsellors, the works. Plus they specialise in this kind of thing.
Unfortunately I don’t know about other states - I’m sure there’s similar things in NSW but I know that there’s not in QLD.
May 20th, 2006 at 10:13 pm
More than happy to be corrected… I was certainly ranting from a point of view of legal ignorance. It just makes me mad that a church can recognise someone as a counsellor, then wipe their hands of a victim of abuse from said counsellor. Arrrgh! I have indeed heard the saying “principles make lawyers rich”… so beware of suing “on principle”. But doesn’t this suck?
May 20th, 2006 at 10:20 pm
Yes it does suck - big time - and I am sure there are websites like this, dedicated to the casualties of the legal system!
I do have a few friends in the legal system who have integrity and good intent but often they are going toe to toe with those that don’t.
I wish truth and principles won the day but they don’t always do so - I think anything legal is a little like Russian roulette.
However I will now get off my soapbox on this…..
May 20th, 2006 at 11:29 pm
Dear Ann, in response to your comment #492. I placed a similar request (in private) to Geoff as well. Geoff’s response to me is as follows.
The main difference between Brian and myself is that I simply refuse to believe that anything I do ‘for God” makes any difference to his love for me.
The “blessings” and ‘prosperity” that they preach is an “Old Testament” foretaste of the overwhelmingly extravagant “blessing and prosperity” of being called a son and daughter of God.
Christ exceeds all material blessings. It is absurd to try and add the OT promises to NT truth. It’s a bit like being promised a cellar of fine wine in France if we behave ourselves and do good, and then discovering that we have inherited all of France, simply because our father loved us unconditionally. Would you then go back and try an earn the cellar?
I believe the church is all about what God has done for us and not what we do for him. Furthermore, I believe that the body of Christ has not become the church. The challenge is for the church to become the body of Christ.. pleading forgiveness for the unforgivable, loving, accepting and gracing beyond measure and unconditionally. There is a huge difference here.
I hope this response answers your question.
May 21st, 2006 at 8:54 am
“The challenge is for the church to become the body of Christ.. pleading forgiveness for the unforgivable, loving, accepting and gracing beyond measure and ”
why, if God has done all this work For us do we need to “plead forgiveness for the unforgivable - they do not need OUR pleadings. This is NO different than Houston saying if we give - we get. Our pleading is going to move God to forgive them????
Grace - i believe is unmerited favor. That is God’s to give, not ours. Only God could give “unmerited favor” We have no favor to give, being that we are just like the ones we are trying to “grace”. we may show mercy to them, or act compassionaltely toward them - but US “gracing” other people is a bit ..ummmm religious. As I see it anyway.
May 21st, 2006 at 10:21 am
Ouch!!
Lori, you come dangerously close to suggesting that lawyers who do defence work don’t have integrity!! A person who’s facing allegations of assault, or a church that’s being sued by someone that suffered an assault, has as much right as the victim to have legal representation, and lawyers must act in the interests of their client. There are definitely *some* lawyers that play dirty, but most are only acting in the interests of their client…lawyers hear and act on their clients ’side of the story’…if a church doesn’t ‘fess up to knowing what went on, you can’t expect their lawyer to roll over and say ‘yeah, let’s pay out’. Blame the client who’s instructing their lawyer, not the lawyer.
May 21st, 2006 at 10:27 am
Hey Bec, this reminds me of an old lawyer joke that you have no doubt heard before.
Did you hear that they are going to start using Lawyers in Labratory experiments?
It’s true, because they found out there are some things a RAT just won’t do.
May 21st, 2006 at 10:48 am
Bec - sorry if this came across in an unclear fashion. I am not suggesting at all that generically speaking defence lawyers lack integrity.
I was merely trying to state that in addition to your own defence team who you may have confidence in, you are also dealing with the other side’s people. You have no control over their legal choices. Plus you deal with a legal system that may or may not be perfect in all instances.
” Blame the client who’s instructing their lawyer, not the lawyer.”
You make an excellent point!! That’s wisdom. No offence meant to the great men and women who do a fantastic job. I have friends and relatives in the legal system and I know that they are glad to be making a meaningful contribution to someone’s life and welfare, not just making a profit and raising their own profile. And I am proud to know them.
I guess what I am trying to say is that in an ideal world the truth would prevail but unfortunately this is not always the case.
Anyone who has been through contentious legal proceedings (voluntarily or involuntarily) can tell you there is an emotional cost in these proceedings. The emotional toll can be an unwelcome surprise.
Certainly a wronged person has every right to legal representation and a fair trial - but sometimes the wrong verdict is given - which is why Appeals courts flourish. Just wanted to point out to Ana that if she goes ahead there may on occasions be challenges.
Hope this clears it up for you - no offence meant.
May 21st, 2006 at 10:56 am
Lori, no offence taken!!
I just think that the legal system is blamed for far too much - this is really obvious in the area of family law and the whole debate about fathers seeing their children - this isn’t a legal issue, it’s a social issue. People expect the law to do too much that it simply can’t do.
I wholeheartedly agree with you as far as Ana’s situation goes. I’ve seen several friends go through it, and it’s really hard watching them experience further pain as a result of lawyers who are basically just doing their job. Personally I hope that victims of these crimes *will* take legal action, as the perpetrators should be hung, drawn and quartered (well, maybe not, but, but you get my drift!). However, I’d also say to any friend of mine contemplating taking things further that they need to consider their own emotional/mental state, their ability to cope with re-living the experience over and over, and whether they have the adequate supports around them to get through the harrowing experience that the legal system can dish out. They should also not place all their hopes of healing in the legal system - they won’t get it there, even if there’s a conviction.
May 21st, 2006 at 11:02 am
Bec - I second that motion!
Could’t agree more with ALL your points above.
L
May 21st, 2006 at 3:23 pm
Might a letter from a legal firm requesting mediation spook a church leadership into at least meeting with a victim, even if said victim doesn’t really intend to take things further? (for emotional or financial reasons) It sounds like the church leadership refuses even to meet with tears4ana.
May 21st, 2006 at 3:52 pm
Janet - in these situations there’s both civil and criminal processes. The criminal would be handled by the police, and that’s where someone like Tears4Ana would have little control, as she’s basically a witness (though also the victim) - the action is brought by the State and controlled by the State.
But she also has civil options, and those relate to both the church and to the individual who perpetrated this act. From my (somewhat limited) knowledge, churches seem to be quick to agree to mediation, and to payouts, although they’ll make sure there’s confidentiality clauses. That sadly accords with what you’d guess - they’re keen to make the matter go away and to avoid a scandal. At least Tears4Ana would have the opportunity to confront her perpetrator and maybe get a bit of cash for her pain…
May 21st, 2006 at 11:35 pm
Dear Andrew post 498
Thanks very much for the reply!
I have found another article about PROSPERITY TEACHING which others might find very helpful. It’s by Allan Weatherall from World view interactive (an Australian christian site). He runs forums on all sorts of topics. I don’t always agree with him, but this particular article is very good. Hope this link works ok.
http://www.wvi.net.au/pdf/Prosperity.pdf
Hope this adds something fruitful to this discussion.
Thanks
Ann
May 22nd, 2006 at 8:21 am
Sorry to say Geoff but im not a fan of your music. Our church decided to join the mainstream bandwagon, and first of all out went our old hymns and bang went in yours. The irony is that you had already left hillsongs by then. So our members started to attend hillsongs (mostly the young “hip” ones) and bring their infection with them to church. Turning solemn and meaningful sabbath services into rock sessions.
I have a big issue with your music considering that most of them sound like Jesus is your girlfriend. I quote the simpsons… “christian rock music is where you substitute Jesus for Baby”
The further irony is that i no longer atend church, no longer believe in God and am dedicated to furthuring my divorce from superstition and mysticism.. long live science. So i guess i have to thank you Geoff and your music for putting me onto a better path.
May 22nd, 2006 at 8:45 am
Yeah, I listened to one of Geoffs songs & I turned into a newt. I got better though.
May 22nd, 2006 at 9:02 am
Gee thanks angryman! Have you read the rewrites?