Geoff Bullock article take two
A while ago we gave a heads up to an article about Geoff Bullock which was due to be published in the Australian back in October. They apparently changed their minds for a while (because he was uninteresting or something) but Geoff mentions that it is now due to be published in the Weekend Australian this weekend. We will try to link up or scan a copy for overseas commenters when it comes out.
Geoff has graciously agreed to discuss the article with us here at signposts. This is pretty vulnerable of him given that, as many of you will realise, Geoff has been pretty circumspect in the media about the fallout of his time at Hills Christian Life Centre (although on this site he has already been graciously open).
UPDATE - the full text of the article is here
May 25th, 2006 at 1:43 pm
Ann - I would like to think that they would either, as you suggest, go to Geoff cap in hand, or, at least take public offence! The fact that they have done neither speak volumes for the fact that they don’t care/they are ambivelent. Ambivelence is a bit like ‘luke warm’. I’m reminded of Revelations 3…
May 25th, 2006 at 6:35 pm
Loinfish:
Does someone else’s sins excuse mine?
Obviously you think so.
May 25th, 2006 at 8:57 pm
Hey Lionfish. Just watched that documentary on Benny Hinn… How incredibly sad people are allowing themselves to be led astray by such an immoral money hungry snake.
China Plate - perhaps you think the Benny Hinn’s, CCC’s and Hillsongs should be allowed to do as they please and not questioned or made to answer for their actions? That certainly seems to be what you’re inferring. As though somehow they are ‘Of God’…
They are not of God I assure you but of their Father the devil and you can take that to the bank!
WIGGY
May 25th, 2006 at 9:27 pm
China Plate not all who choose not to attend a church, sit at home bitter and twisted. If your walk with God means you must belong to a church, then so be it. For me it is what I do with my life and my relationship with God. The “Bride” is those who believe, not those who attend a church. When Christ returns he will look at the hearts of people and their faith. Not who attended church. God will bless those who gather in his name (where there are two or more) - where does that refer to attending multimillion corporate churches and lining the pockets of many with our money. What would they do if they were asked to give up all their treasures to enter the kingdom of heaven. Would they do it?
May 25th, 2006 at 10:03 pm
Hi China Plate,
Please take the time to watch this video…
http://leavingfundamentalism.org/hallofshame.htm#peterpopoff0
Do you think that the documentary producer (obviously a sinner too), was doing the right thing’ by exposing Peter Popoff…?
Or should he have just maintained his silence …?
May 26th, 2006 at 8:51 am
You aught just get on with your lives.
Ive never read one comment here about a “good” church.
A church that is teaching sound doctrine, has loving, caring pastors, worships Jesus etc etc must be as mythical as Brigadoon.
And, its all pringles & houstons fault!!!
Where is this church worthy of attendance?
May 26th, 2006 at 9:24 am
My one
May 26th, 2006 at 9:27 am
Like a typical Hillsonger, China Plate - you will not answer the questions - because you have no valid excuse or argument!
These Churches are scams. Their doctrine of tithing is like the practice of indulgences that Luther had to apeak out about.
China Plate for the record the Bride is alive and well in in the lives of the sheep that he calls his own.
The three Catholic nuns that live three doors down for me that wwork with the refugees. Its with those that serve as missionairies in places like Fink river.
Its in that lves of some friends who have a penpal/support/visiting ministry to those converts caught drug trafficking and doin 30 years in Thai prisions.
Its in the life of the Lutheran/angican/Uniting/other Church Pastor who lives ona decalred income of less than the average family - who spend their time counselling, visiting the sick, teaching scripture in public schools.
The Bride is alive in the Catholic orphanage I visited in the Phillipinnes many years ago.
The Bride alive though it never self promotes itself. These are the people I will take my spiritual direction from.
Funny - I just do not see the Bride found in sensual multi-media, technicolour, saccarinne sweet, high priced, politician attending, false-miracle performing, slick-sounding network of conferences that are turning mega-church pastors into multi-millionairres with an attitude of entitlemnent. Yes they do have fine displays of their ‘good works’ here, - but this here they cecieve their reward in full.
May 26th, 2006 at 9:48 am
Now settle down loinfish. I am as anti houston & anti pringle as anyone here. Probably more so. I detest their greed & their sheep abuse. So dont tar me with their brush thank you.
More to the point, it you lot that change the subject & wont answer questions.
post 567 read: “If you dont like the church you attend you have the right to leave.
Leave, find a good church & get on with life but from the sounds of many here, no such a place exists.
If this is the case then, in these last days, there is nothing for the true Christian but to sit at home isolated, bitter, twisted & hurting & make posts.
Doesnt sound Bible to me.
You all seem to have spotted the Harlot, where is the Bride? ”
“You all seem to have spotted the Harlot, where is the Bride?” that was the question.
So, you are telling me that there is no congregation worthy of being attended?
The best I can hope for is to move next door to some ladies in black that believe in transubstantiation & a whole heap of other heresy?
I refuse to believe that there are no good congregations & ministers out there.
well?
May 26th, 2006 at 9:55 am
Loinfish??? Are you asking me to cover my mullet?
Yes there are good congregations out ther and ministers. I meet with a bunch of Lutherans of a fortnightly friday night for kids bible study, I attend a mainline church service once per month at present. Will become more involved over time…
Good people for who I left for the attraction of the lights and the sounds - that’s where I thought God was moving … I learned a hard lesson! It’s all about Money!
May 26th, 2006 at 10:15 am
If people are truly going to “recover” they need to hear of these good & safe places.
Many poor folk have been so shattered that the thought of a safe place of worship is almost non existant.
It would be nice to hear people talk of the good when they find it rather than just continually tell everyone what they already know of wolves od hillsbong.
Thank you liOnfish.
I wish others would speak of the good as well.
PS
haha - you thought I was a hillsong - puke!!!
May 26th, 2006 at 10:54 am
More important that finding a “good” church with a “good” minister … is having a “good” understanding of the bible yourself and giving yourself permission to only undertake a “good” level of emotional involvement in whatever church you attend.
As much as there are manipulators out there, ultimately people allow themselves to come under the manipulation. I know mature Christians that attend places like HS and CCC as they appreciate some aspects of those churches, and are fully aware of the downsides. However these downsides have a negligable effect as they simple refuse to allow them to impact them. For example, they might not participate in the big fund-raisers as they have a problem with the theology. If someone tries to exert pressure they will respond with “I simply disagree with you, and I don’t need your approval, but thanks anyway”.
It’s also this sort of self secure person that will have no problem in leaving when the time comes that they’ve reached a tipping point (ie the bad starts to outweigh the good).
I think making yourself vulnerable to a church, with all its agendas, is foolhardy. Choose a couple of trustworthy friends, and allow them to have a go at offering you honest advice. It’s also worth keeping in mind that every minister at some point is going to do or say something you find wrong. If you can allow a healthy distance between you and the church, this won’t ruin your life. If it’s not a big deal in the scheme of things, let it slide, if it’s heresy, just go to a new church.
Sadly, I think achieving that sort of wisdom is only found in first experiencing the difficulties of the other extreme. Once bitten, twice shy.
I think you can take this approach without becoming overly cynical or hard of heart. If you feel ripped off by a previous pastor, the best way to get over the anguish is to begin praying that God blesses them. Don’t request lightning bolts from heaven, just that God would be revealed to them in increasing measure. Its difficult to continue hating someone when you’re praying for them to be blessed. You don’t have to stay in the church and keep copping the rubbish, you can leave and still maintain a soft heart.
May 26th, 2006 at 11:06 am
I dont believe that there are any truly mature Christians at hillsong & the like. If they were truly mature they wouldnt be there. Even there presence there would be a stumbling block to the new ones because their presence would be misunderstood as endorsement.
May 26th, 2006 at 11:11 am
Lionfish, (re 578) Brilliant post!!
May 26th, 2006 at 11:35 am
I need to say this…………
TO THE POWERS THAT BE AT HILLSONG WHO MAY BE MONITORING THIS BLOG-
Your lack of response to the hurt former members of your church mentioned in the article in “The Australian” sends out some, if not all of the following messages to both the wider non-Christian community who has read the article, and to your own congregation-
1) that you are not interested in demonstrating deep love and restoring broken relationships with fellow believers. It sends out a message of arrogance and self-protection rather than sacrificial love of Christ.
2) It sends out a message that you really don’t know how to answer their complaints.
3) It sends out a message that you don’t care about their complaints.
4) It sends out the message loud and clear that you are not very interested in the pursuit of truth and justice.
You may strongly disagree with what these people had to say in the article, but this is less important than your need to demonstrate the process of love, understanding, attempts at reconcilation, and forgiveness to the hurt former members. Your congregation and the wider non-christian public is observing your responses.
You may have heard of Ravi Zacharias, the international Christian apologist. He says “As believers, we should all want the same things: love, truth, and the ability to affect our culture for His kingdom. We …need to share His truth, His love, His grace and His mercy to all…one relationship at a time!”
YOUR RESPONSE TO THESE PEOPLE REALLY MATTERS!!!
May 26th, 2006 at 2:00 pm
ROFL Rollsy says: “Don’t request lightning bolts from heaven, just that God would be revealed to them in increasing measure”.
Maybe we should STOP praying for these people then.
May 26th, 2006 at 2:15 pm
China Plate … That has been our point all along. Pastors are in a place of priveledge and responsibility in that at the core of any persons soul is
1) Their Relationship with God
2) Their Relationship with People
3) Their Resources (Time, money and Other talents)…
Church must be a safe house - free from abuse and manipulation. It’s tempting and easy to use the authority of God to make money in a tax-free environment (eg. be obedient to the principle of tithing and you will be blessed / there is going to be a revival you had better give to our miracle trust. Or to use practices that massage the ego’s of the ‘veryimportantbigdonors’
The more important things are harder to execute.
That is why authenticity, accountability, transparency and orthodoxy (attention to good doctrine) are critically important - in Churches of all places.
The end never justifies the means - as it is the journey that is important. If a Church never gathers a crowd of 20,000, its Pastor does not make a name for himself, the worship team never cuts a record and the buildimg never meets the size of a warehouse - that’s not important.
What is important is faithfully administrating the Word with complete integrity and and as Yancey says - ‘dispensing Grace’ (not Law).
After all Jesus will say “Well done good and faithful servant”. NOT “Well done succesful servant - I loved your building, music and funky crowd” .
May 26th, 2006 at 3:09 pm
#578 Well said Lionfish
#582 Rollsy raises a valid point too. As Christians we are meant to grow up and get real, but what some “churches” do is breed an unhealthy form of co-dependency.
May 26th, 2006 at 3:47 pm
We have a biblical obligation to see what is being preached and the rest is being done correctly.
If it was good enough for Paul it is good enough for everyone
May 26th, 2006 at 4:08 pm
You wont change Hellsong, the Houstonites or the Pringleites only God can do that. A strong delusion has fallen upon the groupies of this end time deceived pop church and you wont change that either.
Only thing to do is pull out & find a place where the faithful meet. I like to hear about such places because they do exist and people who have been bitten by the hellsongs need to find a place to call home and gather with true believers.
God will “fix” hellsong & the like. They need to be VERY worried about one of their fave scrips, they will reap what they have been sowing. Im glad they are finally being exposed in the papers. Their worst is yet to come.
I have been to some very good churches with very good pastors/ministers. Mostly main line but strangely some pentecostal too. There is a very strong anti hellsong pentecostal presence out there which is encouraging.
May 26th, 2006 at 6:43 pm
Anne, your comment number 442 about Teen Challenge. nothing has changed. I was told the same thing. go for your pastorship and you will be paid more. Since when does being paid more have anything to do with serving God. I was dumbfounded. There was one lady at Teen Challenge who told me not to do it out of financial reasons but for the love of God only. She was subsequently moved out of her position shortly after. THe CEO said this is what all pastors do to work the system. Shame shame shame the old saying goes. It was these comments that started to make me question and then subsequently be moved on as well. I was even told to become a sponsor or I would be stood down. I gladly didn’t become a sponsor because the game was up and I quickly left the church because these stories were becoming more apparent and too frequent. I still bear the scars of leaving and am trying to rebuild my life after 8 years with HS.
May 26th, 2006 at 8:35 pm
John - please could you email me. Dan has my details & I asked her a little while back to release them to you.
“I still bear the scars of leaving and am trying to rebuild my life after 8 years with HS.”
Our paths may very well have crossed.
Jane
May 27th, 2006 at 11:16 am
Here’s a thought….why dont the penetocostal churches start a truth and reconciliation commission to hear the voices and stories of people who have suffered significant loss, wounding, spiritual (and other) abuses within the church walls……could save a great deal in litigation and public shame at a later date….just a thought from a crazy ‘worldly’ christain.
Could be monitored by independant bodies…
Could that be the beginning of the ‘revival’ that has been touted for ever within pentecostal circles.
May 27th, 2006 at 12:17 pm
Perhaps it hasn’t happened because they haven’t yet understood that God’s power is only released when we give up our own, not when we cling to it and try to enlarge it ..
May 27th, 2006 at 1:07 pm
I’m fair too wordly to be a credible witness. Hillsong wouldn’t believe a word I said.
May 27th, 2006 at 4:54 pm
I like your thought, Daisy: why dont the penetocostal churches start a truth and reconciliation commission to hear the voices and stories of people who have suffered significant loss, wounding, spiritual (and other) abuses within the church walls…… I don’t think you would have much trouble getting the wounded to participate - so it’s definitely worth praying for willingness on the other side
May 27th, 2006 at 7:40 pm
Daisy, I’m also in agreement with your statements. However, I also feel that they should also pay close attention to the following scripture. 2 Corinthians 4:1-3
1Therefore, since through God’s mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.
May 27th, 2006 at 7:57 pm
Good scripture Andrew.
Straight to the poolroom with that one!
May 27th, 2006 at 8:18 pm
Hi Guys
Im another who has just stumbled into this forum. It took me a couple of hours to skim read the posts to get to this point.
Im what alot of people call ‘born again’. This was only 2 years ago. Until I was 31, I led a life that was undesirable, was full of sin - and all the words that Geoff used to describe himself - yep all that too - in addition to being depressed, losing my good job, and being on the verge of suicide by stepping in front of a speeding bus on George Street Sydney.
I went to Hillsong for about 12 months on a frequent basis. This the place that introduced me to God and I was saved. It bought be back from the edge of a very very dark place.
I never made an attempt to join the ‘inner circle’ or get more involved in the Church itself and I never felt 100% comfortable. However in my simple mind (im pretty uneducated when it comes to christianity so no-one bother trying to bamboozle me with quotes as I’ll have no comeback), I simply accepted that this was how some people pray. However I now see past the emotional worship and I see how easy it is for people to get caught up in it all. I didnt know that ‘charismatic’ had another meaning. (I just though it was a bloke on his best behaviour with a woman. LOL)
One of the things that I have noticed is the ‘inner circle’ down on the floor. It seems like some sort of club. All well dressed, good looking and hanging on every word.
I was there at a Waterloo service with a friend who is a Seventh Day Adventist (dont start paying out on Adventism - this blog is about Hillsong) - She is very a educated compared to me. Anyway, the Pastor made some sort of really loose bible connection about something - we just looked at each other to say - “what the ! - how can he make that”. Yet around us, were all these people hanging on every word. It was as if these people are here worshiping the Pastor and the band rather than Jesus.
I think there are alot of good people who go to Hillsong services. Not everone is in the inner circle, is ‘guilted’ into tithe (man they ram this home) , buys the propoganda or is sucked into buying cd, dvds or books on how believing can make you wealthy. But many people go because they feel welcome, they make good friends and they have a love of God.
Im not here to payout on Hillsong. Frankly I dont care whether they are a company limited by guarantee (many charities and churches are) or what Brian Houston’s personal financial position is or whether John Howard, Peter Costello addresses the congregation from time to time.
Hillsong served a purpose and Ive moved on from there to a great group of christians at Albury SDA. And when i feel worthy (my feelings), I’ll be baptised so I can put all the shit of my past behind me.
At judgment day, God will decide how Brian and his collegues should be treated. I have no right to be the judge and jury (especially considering my sinful ways) . But I think that what everyone is saying here is good.
Those at Hillsong should have the right to know what is happening within “THEIR” church. If the leadership has nothing to hide - open the books, be transparent. But its not just being financially open - there should be an end to this emotional manipulation that is gripping christians (especially the young men and women) - not only at Hillsong but other churches around Australia and the world. (How you draw the line between emotional worship and manipulation -I’ll leave that to those who know)
Anyway, at the same time, lets not damn the ‘lay people’ who go to Hillsong for the reasons of worshiping God.
Geoff Bullock - thanks for being so open and telling the truth. I havent read the article yet (havent found it) but Im hoping it can help me face my demons.
God bless all of you.
Dave
May 27th, 2006 at 8:59 pm
thanks dave.. all the best.. the SDA’s have been so incredibly encouraging to me over the years