Geoff Bullock article take two
A while ago we gave a heads up to an article about Geoff Bullock which was due to be published in the Australian back in October. They apparently changed their minds for a while (because he was uninteresting or something) but Geoff mentions that it is now due to be published in the Weekend Australian this weekend. We will try to link up or scan a copy for overseas commenters when it comes out.
Geoff has graciously agreed to discuss the article with us here at signposts. This is pretty vulnerable of him given that, as many of you will realise, Geoff has been pretty circumspect in the media about the fallout of his time at Hills Christian Life Centre (although on this site he has already been graciously open).
UPDATE - the full text of the article is here
May 29th, 2006 at 7:30 am
Some may be interested in this — particularly if you missed Chaser’s War on Everything this week:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj6G7MC85Rw
May 29th, 2006 at 10:19 pm
I heard about this one didn’t see it myself. Thanks for posting Steve.
Brutal, harsh stuff; still I believe worse is to come in the future if geniune, selfless, humility doesn’t come to the fore soon. It really seems to be time for the leadership within some pente churches to honestly and openly deal with a multitude of very serious skeletons in the closet and seek forgiveness from those who have been crying out to their Heavenly Father for justice for years.
Perhaps those whose forgiveness they may need to seek will have the ‘Joseph’ spirit upon them at that time, perhaps not….
I know of many who have not expected any acknowledgement or vindication this side of heaven and have happily given away their ‘rights’ to either. Either earth’s side or heaven’s Christ is the only righteous judge. However something…. seems to be on the way…. I sense it will be public and it will not be pretty….Chaser’s little ditty…..Tip of the iceberg really….
June 28th, 2006 at 6:48 pm
Dear Geoff
In 1995 you were kind enough to sit with me whilst I interviewed you at what seemed like the height of your “hillsong” career, but as I read here, things weren’t all that great for you.
I had hoped the article would be my first article in CCM Magazine. Thankfully you never approved the text. It was terrible! I didn’t go to journalism school, instead went to law school and now am a music lawyer working in London.
I’d be curious, now 11 years later, to speak again, to understand your journey. I promise I won’t write about it! Email me Here.
Brett
July 20th, 2006 at 2:10 pm
I have read all of these posts - man, what a marathon! I was also disturbed by the tone of so many of the posts that talked about grace but delivered none. Regardless of the faults of Hillsong (and I have some real problems with their lack of transparency), could any church be expected to condone, tacitly or otherwise, the flouting of Biblical standards of morality? I am not talking about repentant individuals who have fallen into sin, but those who are unrepentant and actively espouse their alternative views on sexual relationships.
I was disappointed with Geoff’s line- ‘don’t quote me Paul, quote me Jesus.’ Jesus had a lot to say, things like:
“unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of heaven (Matt 5:20) “What comes out of a man makes him unclean…evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder etc.” (Mark 7:20,21) His advice? “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off…if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the Kingdom of heaven with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell.” (Mark 9:47-50)
Faith in Jesus must have affect the way we live our lives. That’s why Paul is consistent with Jesus is saying that those who practice the sins he enumerates cannot enter the kingdom. (1 Cor 6:9,10) Jesus is holy as well as full of grace. The Holy Spirit acts to sanctify us - to conform us to the likeness of Jesus. This happens over time and as we allow the Spirit to work with us.
So, yes all of us are sinners but I don’t buy the line (that again Geoff seems to make) that there is no differentiation between me, you and Osama Bin Laden. Jesus talked about Judas, for example having “greater sin” than Pilate. (Jn. 19:11) The writer to the Hebrews says that “If we deliberately keep sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left.” He goes on to say that it is the equivalent of trampling the Son of God underfoot, insulting the Holy Spirit and mistreating the blood of the covenant.(Heb 10:26-31)
We can actually defy God by continuing in wrong practices. Jesus says: “If you love me, you will obey what I command” (Jn. 14:15)
The human heart is deceptive. I believe that Scripture was given to reveal God and act as an objective witness to his character. Those who reject His word as “legalism” and then create a Jesus made in their own image by emphasizing one part of his character and ignoring his talk of judgement only end up fooling themselves.
Let us all enjoy and appreciate the grace of the Lord Jesus but not miss its point - now is the time of God’s favour, now is the day of salvation.
July 20th, 2006 at 2:26 pm
So…how do you believe you will be judged for your ongoing sin Paul?
July 20th, 2006 at 2:38 pm
Lance, I like you am in the hands of a merciful but just God. The point I am trying to make is that the key is repentant faith in the Lord Jesus. The context of my last post was the absence of repentance but rather an advocacy of immoral behaviour.
There is a tendency in these posts to “play the man” rather than the ball. Do you have a comment on the argument I’ve made?
July 20th, 2006 at 2:47 pm
“Jesus talked about Judas, for example having “greater sin” than Pilate. (Jn. 19:11) ”
Therefore if we’re to apply that verse to Hill$ong….then Hill$ong would be committing the greater sin by betraying Jesus for 30 pieces of silver….than those people today who declare Jesus or God is dead.
Now Jesus was crystal clear……you CANNOT serve God and money.
Hill$ong has had a clear choice…to serve God …or to serve money.
Phil Pringle has had a clear choice..to serve God or to serve money.
They have both chosen to serve money and use Jesus’ name to do so…and recruit others to use Jesus’ name to do so.
And they do it with the full knowledge of what Jesus says against it.
That is why we’re angry.
Also…nice try at quoting 1 cor 6:9-10..without the context of verse 11.
Not all of us non-legalists were born yesterday.
July 20th, 2006 at 3:13 pm
“There is a tendency in these posts to “play the man” rather than the ball. Do you have a comment on the argument I’ve made?”
‘Playing the man’ was something Jesus did all of the time…and something Paul did regularly in his letters to the various churches.
Christians get it in reverse…by playing the man to people outside of the Kingdom..and overlooking the personal sins of people who call themselves believers.
If Christians started ‘playing the man’ among themselves….then you wouldn’t have the thriving sin that has made the church the laughing stock that it is today.
For example….I haven’t heard one person in the church speak up yet about this appalling behaviour by a member of the AOG church in Bundoora….Northside Christian Centre.
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,19828097-5005941,00.html
“In documents tendered to Melbourne Magistrates’ Court, Arney admitted assaulting his daughter up to 10 times in the months before she died. “It’s not like . . . I have been punching her on a daily basis, just . . . to, you know, relieve my own tension,” Arney told police.
Describing himself as a “passionate man”, Arney told police he hit his daughter in the stomach when he became frustrated and experienced “fits of rage”.
Arney told police he had wanted to put his daughter up for adoption, saying she made it “a hell of a lot harder” to achieve what he wanted in life.”
I would argue that the AOG church’s emphasis on ‘me first’…was a contributing factor in this case…
The AOG is not to blame for her death…but the AOG must start taking responsibility for how the mindset that the church encourages…sets off certain sociopathic personalities…such as Brian Houston whom we’ve discussed here..to wreak havoc..when they think no-one is looking….
Brian does all his dirty work behind closed doors…or in settings where he thinks a broader audience isn’t looking.
“Arney said he did not hit the baby when others were present, and his wife did not know about the abuse.
“I did not want to come across as that type of person,” Arney said. “The reason I also went for the stomach area is that tends to be more of a fleshy part and something that would not show up as much.”
The young couple regularly attended the Northside Christian Centre, an Assemblies of God church in Bundoora, where Ms Arney was formerly a Sunday school teacher.”
There is growing evidence that the AOG mindset facilitates abusive personalities….and in that kind of threatening and intimidating environment…I think someone has every right to play the man….when the abuser…is going way way beyond playing the man…and actually physically, mentally, emotionally, or spiritually hurting people.
I don’t think you get anywhere with appeasing the man or trying to politely discuss the issue…because these sociopathic personalities… (the kind that would want to stone an adulterer) are not reasonable people.
You cannot reason with unreasonable people.
I’m sorry …you just can’t.
The world and the church doesn’t work like that…and Jesus clearly made a distinction between how he dealt with sociopathic religious people…and ’sinners’….and sometimes Jesus played the man….(whitewashed tombs full of dead mens’ bones….broods of vipers…etc)
July 20th, 2006 at 3:16 pm
1 Cor 6:11 is the whole point - “that is what some of you were…” i.e. Faith had had its consequences worked out in a changed lifestyle.
As per my last post I’m not in a position to defend Hillsong; I am concerned by the influence of commerce on the church and their lack of transparency.
I’m not sure about some of their teaching, as James says: “Not many of you should presume to be teachers…because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.” (James 3:1)
Hillsong and the Houstons are accountable to God.
I understand your anger but as one of the other posts said so well:
‘you’ve identified the harlot, how about the Bride’?
For every negative emotion you have so far experienced a healthy church experience will provide a corresponding positive one.
July 20th, 2006 at 3:19 pm
Paul, if you’re really up for a marathon… try:
http://www.signposts.org.au/2005/10/13/god-and-homosexuality/
Much more detail on the various points of view, if you want to understand more about this.
July 20th, 2006 at 3:24 pm
“1 Cor 6:11 is the whole point - “that is what some of you were…” i.e. Faith had had its consequences worked out in a changed lifestyle.”
Another nice try….
Jeez….you don’t like the redemptive bit of the text do you?
‘That is what some of you were..’
And how does the rest of it go?
You WERE washed…you WERE sanctified, you WERE justified (completed acts at the cross)….by Christ Jesus…
The verse is effectively saying..’your act has been cleaned up at the cross…now live that way’…not as you and the modern Pharisees imply…’change or you’ll go to hell’.
Because you know..it’s funny…..YOU don’t have to change or be changed to be saved DO YOU…because YOU get something called ‘grace’…but the homo’s…? nooooooo.
As I say…nice attempt to one-up yourself over the gays…
Are you now bitterly disappointed you didn’t get away with your 1 cor 6:9:10 trick (law without redemption) that you and the Pharisees always try and pull on?
July 20th, 2006 at 3:41 pm
(RE: 641) You are right - “your act has been cleaned up at the cross…now live that way” . This being “washed” “sanctified” “justified” is reflected in behaviour as Paul elaborates on in verses 12-20. “The body isn’t meant for sexual immorality…Shall I take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never!…Flee from sexual immorality…You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honour God with your body.”
I don’t know what the hang up is about homosexuality - all sexual sin is covered in 1 Cor 6 - heterosexual and otherwise.
July 20th, 2006 at 3:41 pm
Of course…this is all working on your assumption that 1 cor 6:9-10 refers specifically to homosexuals…when the evidence on ‘malakoi’ is that it refers to people who are ’softies’…..and the meaning of ‘arsenekoitai’ is not known…(although there’s an outside chance it may refer to homosexuality………it’s a highly unlikely translation)..
But working on your assumption that it does mean homosexuals….then the passage makes it clear that they HAVE been washed….they HAVE been sanctified…and they HAVE been justified…..if they have faith in Christ..and the challenge is to live in a renewed way….as evidence of one’s justification by the cross (which of course..no-one has ever done..because everyone is a sinner…but gee….we like applying that expectation rigidly to the homo’s.)
July 20th, 2006 at 4:05 pm
Don’t bullshit me Paul.
Lance’s rule of Signposts Numbers 1,2,3,4,7 and 16 - I don’t like being bullshitted by churchgoers.
You came on to this blog..remarking that you had spent some time reading the posts on Hillsong.
So you knew the personal journeys of some of the people here…..who have been gay or in an adulterous relationship…or in a de-facto relationship or whatever.
“I have read all of these posts - man, what a marathon! I was also disturbed by the tone of so many of the posts that talked about grace but delivered none. Regardless of the faults of Hillsong (and I have some real problems with their lack of transparency), could any church be expected to condone, tacitly or otherwise, the flouting of Biblical standards of morality? I am not talking about repentant individuals who have fallen into sin, but those who are unrepentant and actively espouse their alternative views on sexual relationships.
That was your opening salvo..you came here to stir people up who struggle in those areas.
“I was disappointed with Geoff’s line- ‘don’t quote me Paul, quote me Jesus.’ Jesus had a lot to say, things like:
“unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of heaven (Matt 5:20) “What comes out of a man makes him unclean…evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder etc.” (Mark 7:20,21) His advice? “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off…if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the Kingdom of heaven with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell.” (Mark 9:47-50)
I have a simple question Paul…has your righteousness surpassed that of the Pharisees?
And don’t duck that question in your reply, which I know you will try and do.
“Faith in Jesus must have affect the way we live our lives. That’s why Paul is consistent with Jesus is saying that those who practice the sins he enumerates cannot enter the kingdom. (1 Cor 6:9,10)
The usual pharisee trick…..quoting 1 cor 6:9-10 without the redemptive verse 11. I’ve studied you pharisees Paul….that’s how I know all the tricks you use..and this is an oldie but a goodie….(although I’m surprised you also didn’t give us Romans 1 without the context of Romans 2).
Again you knew the struggles of the people here..and yet you chose to quote the bible out of context..without its redemptive passages. You did that. Accept responsibility for what you wrote…(aren’t you conservative pharisees always banging on about personal responsibility?)
So….how are you going to play it now Paul.
You’ve barged into someone’s home and started preaching condemnation.
You have a choice (there’s that word again).
You can sit still…shut up…and enjoy the hospitality….or I can chase you down the street with a rake.
What’s it going to be…because I’ll warn you now…I’ve got a rake from the back garden (metaphorically speaking) ..and I’m more than happy to chase you down the street with it…if you insist on bursting in on other people’s homes..and behaving like a graffiti vandal on other people’s souls.
Your choice…and consider yourself fortunate..because I usually don’t give warnings.
July 20th, 2006 at 4:24 pm
Maybe there’s something that needs pointing out here.
If Brian Houston…or Phil Pringle…or Phil Baker….or any of the other money-mad contemporary church leaders ADMITTED they had a problem with greed..and it was something they were trying to contain and control in their life..but it kept getting them better of them…that would be a WHOLE different ball-game.
But the reality is …these ‘leaders’ are pumping their unrepentent bullshit out from the pulpit each week…..
As recently as last Sunday…Phil Baker was railing against greed…but…surprise surprise….of course…none of it applied to him. (I’ll get around to the transcript at some point…it’s breath-takingly gobsmackable his hypocrisy on this).
But again..if any one of these leaders came clean about their sin…then they would be treated with respect…hmm…not necessarily compliance…but a greater sympathy for their plight…than what I have now..which is zero sympathy…because of their arrogance and their pride…and their efforts to sanctify (to use Phil Pringle’s word) the love of money..and the defrauding of gullible people to live in that ’sinful lifestyle’.
July 20th, 2006 at 4:25 pm
On a slightly different tack Lance… 638 is a bit of a long bow… beating your child to death is way outside the realm of “prosperity doctrine selfishness”. Complete nutters and sociopaths do crop up in denominations of all descriptions… I’d want to know a lot more of the situation before I’d be persuaded the AOG church had any culpability in this case.
July 20th, 2006 at 4:36 pm
It appears that the rake is raised and ready for action! Contrary to what you think I didn’t come to “stir people up who struggle in those areas.” Incidentally, it heartens me that they do struggle; I was concerned that some appear not to struggle at all but rather to glorify moral failure.
I write in concern not judgement.
I am curious as to why there has been no response to Hebrews 10? I’m happy to reply to your question re: the righteousness of the Pharisees when you address this passage. Now that’s only fair isn’t it?
July 20th, 2006 at 4:40 pm
Jeez, have you people actually realised that the Bible is not a legal document, a judgement or a Constitution, to be interpreted and debated and applied through it’s interpetation like an Act of Parliament?
July 20th, 2006 at 5:11 pm
I don’t think the AOG are to blame for the child’s death….that would be a long bow……but…there’s no doubt that AOG teaching dove-tailed with the Bundoora churchgoer’s self-centred attitude……in the same way that living in suburban Melbourne in 2006 working a job and trying to ‘get ahead in life ‘….dovetails with that attitude.
It’s one thing for the child’s death to happen…but it’s another thing altogether for the church to not learn something from it..and make it as hard as possible for that to happen again.
If there was a different message coming from the AOG church…..(I’ll have to try and think like a whacko AOG church for a moment)..such as ‘Jesus wants you to be prosperous….healthy and satisfied with an awesome life…BUT don’t hurt others in being empowered in your life’…(I think I’m going to vomit)…. I think the ‘but don’t hurt others’ addition to the AOG church’s message might….possibly..maybe…have put up a roadblock in this dickhead’s brain..and he ..might..possibly…maybe..have thought….’gee…this baby is getting in the way of me being blessed…but church said I shouldn’t hurt others…so maybe I won’t punch the baby to death’.
All 20/20 hindsight hypothetical…but I’ll stick to my point..that it was a contributing factor in the death….in that it was a contributing factor in NOT PREVENTING the death.
Did the AOG conspire in the manslaughter of the child? No….but given the sociopathic people known to be within its ranks……was the church negligent in preaching a message of ‘God bless me first’…at the expense of others……? Absolutely.
Is the church negligent if it doesn’t act now with full 20/20 hindsight…? Absolutely.
And it’s not just an AOG Australian thing…the same goes for the Crystal Cathedral after the 2004 siege http://www.ocregister.com/ocr/2004/12/17/sections/breaking_news/article_347615.php where they just went on with life as normal and pretended nothing happened….and the same as the Lutheran Church in the US after one of its local church presidents was found to be a serial killer. http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0716otherkillers0716rader.html
I can understand that churches don’t want to wallow in this stuff…and just want to wring their hands and say ‘oh well…manure happens’… (because shit doesn’t happen in AOG churches) …but that Northside Christian Centre wants to continue on with a ‘celebration service’ this Sunday…a few days after one of their members has been convicted of punching a child to death….does seem a little tacky..
http://www.northsidecc.org.au/images/church.jpg
At the very least ….at the VERY LEAST…it raises the question about the AOG church’s theology……’what was God’s amazing plan for this little child’s life….that they be punched in the stomach several times until their bowel raptures and they die before seeing childhood…let alone adulthood?’.
Great plan God.
July 20th, 2006 at 5:12 pm
“I am curious as to why there has been no response to Hebrews 10? I’m happy to reply to your question re: the righteousness of the Pharisees when you address this passage. Now that’s only fair isn’t it?”
I asked you first.
I’m not playing your bullshit games.
July 20th, 2006 at 5:19 pm
The offer stands.
RE: 640
Thanks Janet - I’ll have a look and see if I have the stamina to go the marathon.
July 20th, 2006 at 5:19 pm
RE: 650 The offer stands.
RE: 640
Thanks Janet - I’ll have a look and see if I have the stamina to go the marathon.
July 20th, 2006 at 5:27 pm
Well, we both agree that a “Celebration” is out of the question. A service of lamentation is the only imaginable response. Tear the clothes, heap ashes, (or whatever the modern equivalent is), weep and wail, read the Psalms of lament, cry out to God: “how could this happen? Search us o God… forgive our sins” and so forth.
Maybe you’re right… maybe it’s not likely….
July 20th, 2006 at 5:33 pm
I recommend the marathon over a rake fight with Lance. God bless him and all.
Actually… the marathon read has given me more sensitivity to others I think… regardless what side of the theological fence you sit, I think it’s helpful to hear the voices of others and try to feel just a little of what they feel. Seek first to understand….
July 20th, 2006 at 5:43 pm
Good advice Janet.
July 20th, 2006 at 8:47 pm
Lance,
I have to agree with you on posts #638 & #649. Hill$ong does set these kind of sociopaths to fail! It sets up people with a predisposition to depression to fail! It was this constant “me first!” “”Fulfill your destiny” bullshit from Hill$ong that drove my ex Fiance into fits of rage because, like the poor bugger in the story, I was or my kids were standing in her way. You are right on the money on this one Lance! And yes, I do have sympathy for the father in this case. He is obviously ill, he has been manipulated spiritually and mentally by the church and his baby is dead because of those things. Is he evil? Maybe. But there but for the grace of God go I. I have been abused by the church and suffered from depression….what if I had the illness that this poor bugger has?
Are the AOG liable? No, not in a legal sense but they sure are in a moral/ethical sense! Will they do anything? No! Why? Because they are paralised by this kind of thing! It doesn’t fit with their theology! To the AOG, this guy is just purely evil and therefore, they can wash their hands of him. Nothing to do with them!
As for the Homo debate; It used to piss me off but these days, I want to know the truth! (When I read my english bible, Lesbians seem to have carte blanch! It’s only the boys who get picked on. Is that because they just thought lesbainism couldn’t happen when they started translating these things?) Anyway Lance (or others), do you have a poor hetro (What was that Sam Newman joke?) white fella’s theology on homosexuality? Maybe this needs or I need to go read the other thread but I am a simple soul and a bit dim and time poor. (Where is my prosperity doctrine for time?) so a simple, “I believe that……. because…….” would be nice.
Ta
Neil
July 20th, 2006 at 9:29 pm
According to BTK - Dennis Rader - the Christian serial murderer - he is quoted as saying - “Some people may have a problem with this, but i know that I am a christian” through his final hearing where the judge had him go through step by step, each of his murders.. For those who don’t know, he was a very active member and president of his church for many years, while at the same time being the Bind- Torture - Kill (BTK) killer. He also said his murdering fantasies were a result of his addiction to pornography.
When will the porn industry take responsibility for the murders they create?
July 20th, 2006 at 9:48 pm
Why is it that everyone seems to want to look after and worry about everyone elses relationship with God and not concentrate on their own? Why do you come here Paul and talk about peopoe seemingly glorifying “moral failure”? That’s your assessment…not i think really your job.
There are so many things that are not clear but a whole heap of things that are - love your neighbour as yourself - love God with your heart, mind and soul - Lance has got the same bible as you do -he doesn;t need you to articualte the finer points of theology for him -let him do it for himself - just you shuold do it for yourself.
As for me and my house…we will serve dinner no later than 6.30pm…I’m tired
July 20th, 2006 at 9:50 pm
It reminds me of this joke:
A pompous minister was seated next to a hillbilly on a flight across the country. After the plane was airborne, drink orders were taken.The hillbilly asked for a whiskey, which was brought and placed before him.
The flight attendant then asked the minister if he would like a drink.
He replied in disgust, “I’d rather be savagely raped by brazen whores than
let liquor touch these lips.”
The hillbilly then handed his drink back to the flight attendant and said,
“Hell, me too. I didn’t know we had a choice.”
July 20th, 2006 at 11:57 pm
I think I’d be giving my grog back too….