Geoff Bullock article take two
A while ago we gave a heads up to an article about Geoff Bullock which was due to be published in the Australian back in October. They apparently changed their minds for a while (because he was uninteresting or something) but Geoff mentions that it is now due to be published in the Weekend Australian this weekend. We will try to link up or scan a copy for overseas commenters when it comes out.
Geoff has graciously agreed to discuss the article with us here at signposts. This is pretty vulnerable of him given that, as many of you will realise, Geoff has been pretty circumspect in the media about the fallout of his time at Hills Christian Life Centre (although on this site he has already been graciously open).
UPDATE - the full text of the article is here
July 21st, 2006 at 11:53 am
“savagely raped by brazen whores” - but my - that must sting somewhat…
July 21st, 2006 at 12:08 pm
Not as much as you might think, actually.
July 21st, 2006 at 12:19 pm
Luke - you’re sounding as tho you have some inside knowledge re such savagings…
Phil, Dan - time to start a new thread! Luke’s got 1st go!!
July 21st, 2006 at 1:16 pm
A gentleman would never kiss and tell, Toddy.
July 21st, 2006 at 4:05 pm
Who’s calling you a gentleman, Luke?
July 21st, 2006 at 4:11 pm
None of the brazen whores, that’s for sure.
July 21st, 2006 at 4:22 pm
(Luke - I can’t believe I’m having a discussion with you about brazen anyones when I’ve just made serious, well thought out, heart-felt comments re empowering women in the church etc… I am truly deranged…)
July 21st, 2006 at 4:27 pm
Hmmm, did someone seriously suggest that we should start a new thread to facilitate a brazen hoor discussion? Who’s been working too hard here?
July 21st, 2006 at 4:44 pm
Must be something wrong with your monitor Dan… surely no one would seriously suggest something as wanton as that… (hurrumph hurrumph)
July 21st, 2006 at 5:12 pm
Look, someone’s got to minister to the brazen whores of our time. I’ve decided to sacrifice my honour in the pursuit of the Kingdom
July 21st, 2006 at 5:38 pm
Um, Luke - do you need to talk about your day a bit?
Are you pursuing those Kingdom Women who love sex? Is THAT what you’re saying? That you’re actually pursuing HILLSONG WOMEN?!?
Um-MAH!! I’m telling Lance & Rev on you!! And Neil’s gonna have something to say as well (although he’ll probably swear at you less…)
Truly thou art a noble man…
July 21st, 2006 at 5:46 pm
Well, let’s see.
Lance’s interest in Kingdom Women can safely be assumed to be fairly low…..Neil seems to be once bitten twice shy…..which leaves the Rev. And to be fair, he’s the scariest of the lot.
I just want to save these creatures from the ravenous clutches of Boob-job Bobby. Luke’s Refuge for Fall(ing) Women, I call it.
July 21st, 2006 at 6:04 pm
You’re a good man Luke, and you must make your mother proud!
I know that Lance won’t offer much in terms of competition for the mantle, but I reckon he’ll get ticked if you start helping BBB.
However, if, as you say, you are rescuing these poort misguided creatures from her grasp, then obviously blessings (altho not wealth!) will be all yours (but maybe not right now) as you minister (even if it’s not under the direction of BH) to them.
Looking at the title of your minstry there… perhaps getting a woman to support you so her name could be added in as well would add (?) credibility? Bec might be keen re ‘Token Women’?
Bec & Luke’s Refuge for Fall(ing) Women? it could be BLaRFeW.
You know - cos it makes sense…
You know - like the rest of our conversation today…
(heaven helps us all)
July 21st, 2006 at 6:17 pm
I take my inspiration from thos efine men, Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker. When women fell, those two were right there with them.
July 21st, 2006 at 6:23 pm
… with their foot extended and a smirk on their faces…
July 21st, 2006 at 6:28 pm
Perish the thought. By the way, if you want to help defend Reverends Swaggart and Bakker, you can contribute to the Jesus Fighting Fund on 1880 GIVE US CASH
December 10th, 2006 at 11:40 am
I think this is the appropriate thread to post about ‘truthiness’.
‘Truthiness’ has just been named ‘word of the year’…after being coined in 2005.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness
——–
“Truthiness is a satirical term popularized by Stephen Colbert in reference to the quality by which a person claims to know something intuitively, instinctively, or “from the gut” without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or actual facts (similar to the meaning of “bellyfeel”, a Newspeak term from George Orwell’s Nineteen Eighty-Four). Colbert created this definition of the word during the inaugural episode (October 17, 2005) of his satirical television program The Colbert Report, as the subject of a segment called “The WØRD”. It was named word of the year for 2005 by the American Dialect Society and for 2006 by Miriam-Webster.
By using the term as part of his satirical routine, Colbert sought to critique the tendency to rely upon “truthiness” and its use as an appeal to emotion and tool of rhetoric in contemporary socio-political discourse. He particularly applied it to President Bush’s modus operandi in nominating Harriet Miers to the Supreme Court and in deciding to invade Iraq as well as the rationale behind Wikipedia.
Original use
Colbert unknowingly reinvented the word truthiness, as it appears in the Oxford English Dictionary, where truthy, the word from which truthiness is derived, is defined as a variation of straightforward truthfulness, and indicated as rare or dialectal. The prior existence of the word was first pointed out by linguist and OED consultant Benjamin Zimmer.
Origin
Colbert introduced the word truthiness on the premiere episode of The Colbert Report, on October 17, 2005. According to Newsweek, he came up with the idea of truthiness just moments before filming for the show began. He used truthiness in a monologue that emphasized its role as an ironic political polemic compressed into a single word, as demonstrated in the following excerpts.
‘I will speak to you in plain, simple English. And that brings us to tonight’s word: ‘truthiness.’ Now I’m sure some of the ‘word police,’ the ‘wordinistas’ over at Webster’s are gonna say, ‘hey, that’s not a word.’ Well, anyone who knows me knows I’m no fan of dictionaries or reference books.
I don’t trust books. They’re all fact, no heart. And that’s exactly what’s pulling our country apart today. ‘Cause face it, folks; we are a divided nation. Not between Democrats and Republicans, or conservatives and liberals, or tops and bottoms. No, we are divided between those who think with their head, and those who know with their heart.
Consider Harriet Miers. If you ‘think’ about Harriet Miers, of course her nomination’s absurd. But the president didn’t say he ‘thought’ about his selection. He said this:
‘I know her heart.’
Notice how he said nothing about her brain? He didn’t have to. He feels the truth about Harriet Miers.
And what about Iraq? If you think about it, maybe there are a few missing pieces to the rationale for war. But doesn’t taking Saddam out feel like the right thing?
Colbert gave an out-of-character interview with The Onion’s A.V. Club, in which he responded to the question, “What’s your take on the ‘truthiness’ imbroglio that’s tearing our country apart?” by elaborating on the critique he intended to convey with the word truthiness:
Truthiness is tearing apart our country, and I don’t mean the argument over who came up with the word…
It used to be, everyone was entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. But that’s not the case anymore. Facts matter not at all. Perception is everything. It’s certainty. People love the President because he’s certain of his choices as a leader, even if the facts that back him up don’t seem to exist. It’s the fact that he’s certain that is very appealing to a certain section of the country. I really feel a dichotomy in the American populace. What is important? What you want to be true, or what is true?…
Truthiness is ‘What I say is right, and [nothing] anyone else says could possibly be true.’ It’s not only that I feel it to be true, but that I feel it to be true. There’s not only an emotional quality, but there’s a selfish quality.”
———-
And that’s what we saw this year when Geoff Bullock’s (and others’) account of life at Hill$ong…(the truth) clashed with the ‘truthiness’ to which the followers of Hill$ong and Christian City Church..and the like ..all adhere.
It’s why Maria @ Hill$ong couldn’t bring herself to respond to the truth, because it undermined Hill$ong’s truthiness.
And those who’ve left Hill$ong and Christian City Church in the past year…have found out the hard way…that there is an awful void…an emptiness..in between abandoning ‘truthiness’..and embracing truth.
That’s because truth is both boring and confronting…unlike ‘truthiness’…which is exciting and soothing.
Truth involves confronting one’s own sin….the sins of the church..and even confronting the ‘horror of grace’….receiving forgiveness and restoration when it is NOT deserved.
So…what is the ‘truthiness’ of Hill$ong?
Well….there’s the ‘truthiness’ within Hill$ong that what the cult…oops…church is doing is ‘awesome’ and is impacting the community.
The ‘truthiness’ in the community ABOUT Hill$ong..is that Hill$ong is a bunch of self-serving right-wing money-whores in bed with the Liberal Government..
The truth is that Hill$ong is just a church that’s grown large by sheep-stealing from other churches through offering a unique form of worship..and its impact on the local community is negligible.
Hill$ong is only famous..not for what it achieves, but the various controversies that have raised people’s awareness of Hill$ong’s existence.
The ‘truthiness’ at Christian City Church..is that God will make you wealthy if you support the church. Exciting and soothing ‘truthiness’…but of course…untrue.
And when the possum-dragger saga popped up (unexpected truth) it was interesting to watch the clash between the truth of a supposedly responsible church youth leader dragging a dead possum around a suburban park with the youths for which he was supposedly responsibly leading……with the ‘truthiness’ that had been created and believed by the CCC faithful…(”Danny K’s an awesome guy/the media got it wrong etc.)
But it’s not just about the ‘contemporary’ church.
I suspect much of what goes on in the traditional churches is driven by ‘truthiness’…such as a gut feel against gays…..a childhood love for hymns…..a (high-functioning) autistic need for familiar routines in church…
My contention is that the vast majority of Christians ..including pastors ..operate on ‘truthiness’..and aren’t interesting in the truth…if it conflicts with their felt ‘truthiness’.
And after reading this http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/05/04/high-cost-of-faith/ the big question is…how do you get Hill$ong to acknowledge truth…when the whole place is built and run on ‘truthiness’?
December 10th, 2006 at 12:13 pm
Very interesting post, Lance… I highly enjoyed reading it.. I don’t have time to give a delicious reply and nitpick what you said, but thanks anyway!
December 10th, 2006 at 11:05 pm
Thoughtful post Lance.
I watched Riverview’s “ChurchLive” this morning - the music was great (compared to the Catholic services on the other channel).
It would seem that “Truth” has lost its value. It is not as important as entertainment, ambience or “the show’.
I would rather sit in a Church and listen to an out of tune piano pump out classical hymns and hear “Truth” be taught - then sit through the a worship service that gives the greatest of ‘emotional’ highs in comfortable cinema seating and be fed “Truthiness”.
Good thoughts.
December 11th, 2006 at 3:50 pm
I think I often operate on “truthiness” in reflexive reactions… but dammit, I’ve been trained in weighing evidence, which spoils everything!
My influence is limited when I get carried away by “truthiness”. Pretty scary when the President of the US operates like this… and when the masses love it.
December 11th, 2006 at 5:42 pm
You are on the money with that comment janet.
As a business Analyst - I too “have been trained in weighing evidence”
December 12th, 2006 at 4:17 pm
When do you think it is appropriate to back your judgement based on “truthiness”?
December 12th, 2006 at 4:49 pm
I think it’s perfectly valid when describing your own experience…
e.g. I know that Christ is real because of the relationship I have with Him.
I also think there is a really important role for intuition… we know more than we think we do. Our spirits within discern truth. This kind of intuition is probably undervalued.
In leading churches or other complex organisation, I think a greater variety of styles are required… you need “hard heads” who’ll ask financial questions, viability questions, theological questions, what could possibly go wrong? questions. Healthy leadership involves teamwork by diverse kinds of people.
In many healthy marriages “opposites attract”… someone is more intuitive, someone asks the hard questions and does the analysis. If there’s good listening and mutual respect better decisions are made.
December 12th, 2006 at 5:02 pm
I think one key difference between having your life based on ‘truthiness’ instead of truth..is it’s fine to have a series of beliefs..about God, the church, people, yourself..and life in general…..and hold those beliefs to be true, but when further facts come along, and you’re unable to adapt to those facts, then to me, it’s a sign that your life is based on ‘truthiness’ (what you *feel* to be true) rather than what’s actually true.
And as far as the gay thing goes…I think the gay community is often just as guilty as ‘truthiness’..as the church.
For example…there’s a lot of ‘truthiness’ in what AVB currently preaches (the ‘God made me gay’ stuff…the truth is..we just don’t know for sure yet why gay people are gay)… although it’s a different ‘truthiness’ to what he preached when he was on the circuit as a penty leader.
I think AVB would be much more effective if he started telling more of the truth.
December 13th, 2006 at 7:18 am
It’s interesting for me to think about the different disciplines of various Signposters… (science, law, journalism, business analysis, theology) because despite some distinctive methodology they are disciplines around truth… research, evidence, experiment, logic, argument, analysis.
I’m guessing this reflects a hunger for truth, and a willingness to put aside truthiness in the face of reality.
I remember a friend (then working as a barrister) telling me about how through the cross examination process more often than not the truth would become obvious. Telling the truth is simple… it’s hard to lie consistently, and various liars would start contradicting each other and even their own accounts under cross examination. The juries could sniff out who was telling the truth and who was lying. A marvellous thing when it’s working well.
January 31st, 2007 at 11:12 pm
Absolute Gem Alert.
I found a recent radio interview with Geoff Bullock…on of all places, my old stomping ground ..Sonshine FM (not that they’d probably wish there to be any association with me now..so just a disclaimer there..)
Here’s the link. http://media.sonshinefm.ws/feeds/SUN161106_1120.mp3
February 1st, 2007 at 10:16 am
Just listened to that interview,
Cannot understand how a man with that intellect, who is that spritually articulate could ever have been involved with HS or BH. They are not even remotely in the same league.
I hope Goeff realises now that he never belonged there, it was always his destiny to separate from them.
Pearls before swine, it was.
March 17th, 2007 at 3:47 am
For those who actually read this posting…I want to let you know something important. I went to Hillsong church for a year and was involved in three of the ministries there: Hillsong Kids, Fuel (junior high) and I was also in Hillsong’s choir. I don’t attend the church anymore, because I live in another country now, but after reading your article, I was thinking how ridiculous it is for someone to write an article like this.
First of all, in the bible, the church is not a building. It is God’s people, meaning all Christians. We are God’s people, are supposed to live in unity. If you love people, and love God, then why on earth would you take time to write an article that would downplay God’s work on earth? I wonder what the motivations would be for someone to be so bitter about a church at all, especially if they have never experienced it first hand. The writer has obviously put alot of thought and effort into writing this article. Why not use your talent and time to do something more productive? Do something that will build people up, instead of tearing people down. I have a message for the writer: I see in you someone that is of worth. I see in you someone that is blessed by God and talented with writing words. I see so much potential in you, and I don’t even know you! But understand this. God didn’t give us potential to hurt others. If you recall, He said the most important things to Him are that you love Him first, and then you love people. If the church is built up of people, then ask yourself this. Why would you write anything in attempt to destroy people? Did Hillsong do anything to you personally?
I just want to point out that the people who left the church did so out of choice. It was a decision they made, and a choice that they made. Nobody at Hillsong forces you out of the church. Trust me. It’s such a big church that it just can’t happen. You’ll get lost in the crowd. The “security guards” are often just college students. They don’t have a clue who you are unless you know them personally. How do I know this? Well, because I was at the college.
After working with some very prominent people at Hillsong, I want to let you know that they do not brainwash people as you suggest. They don’t force you to give them any money. It is a choice. Just like any church. I’ve been to a variety of different churches in my life time, and different denominations. Nobody has ever forced me to give anything I did not want to give. My conclusion is that a church is God’s people, and that it is good for people to fellowship with others.
There are so many good things happening at Hillsong church! Why don’t people write about that? It’s funny that when God decides to bless something, people will always try to tear it down. In all my days at Hillsong, I never saw anything weird or strange happening either financially or spiritually. It’s not even a “fanatical” church! haha. People there are really nice, and open and they really do nurture the church members. Just for reference, I wasn’t dressed in any ritzy nice clothes. I dressed like a skater girl. Yes that’s right. T-shirts that are cheap cheap cheap! Fun stuff. Nobody from church ever judged me for that. They still loved me as if they knew me for ages!
What I saw at Hillsong, was a church that was full of integrity. People there that loved God, loved people and loved life. I guess when people see that, they like to tear it down because they haven’t experienced it themselves.
I have some questions about the writer, and I don’t want you to answer it to anyone but yourself. These are rhetorical questions: Are you living out a life that is allowing you to be the best that you can be for God? Do you love the church (the people of God) with a passion? If someone wrote an article like this about your family, what would you think? … I’m saying this because Hillsong church is part of the family of God. Part of God’s family that consists of anyone in the world that believes in what Jesus has done for them and accepts them as saviour.
There is nothing added to that at Hillsong. You don’t need to do or say anything extra to earn salvation. Salvation is a gift that is given to us from God. You don’t need to speak in tongues to be saved, you don’t need to be rich to be saved, and you don’t need to go to Hillsong church to be saved.
You just need Jesus Christ.
Now, I don’t want anyone to respond to this post…because I won’t be able to write back to them. I don’t go on this website much. I just happend to come across it. I hope this helped put things into perspective though.
Hillsong is not about riches or marketing. They are solidly based on building relationships. That’s why every ministry at Hillsong is so adament on building “connect groups” to help people feel welcome. Connect groups = small groups. I’m thinking many big churches do this too. Anyway, that’s all i have to say for now.
In the end, God knows best, and I know without a doubt that in heaven, it is relationships that matter. Especially your relationship with Jesus…and that is not to be judged by anyone because everyone’s relationship with Christ is different.
March 17th, 2007 at 10:59 am
Rae, I will answer this post (I think it’s a bit much to write something and then say you can’t possibly stick around for comments…isn’t that part of our beef with AOG churches? Not wanting to hear debate or criticism? You’re kinda proving the point there.)it’s great that was your experience. Unfortunately it is not everyone’s experience, and there are a number of reasonable questions about the way Hillsong runs things, finances etc and the way the Frank Houston issue was dealt with that have not been answered satsifactorily. I think Hillsong does do goos things, but I think they also have some pretty dodgy theology, and I have known plenty of people who did feel pressured to give, tithe etc. The questions you pose I can answer with a clean conscience. But I don’t think exposing hypocisy or asking challenging questions is “tearing down” the body of Christ. Even Paul and Timothy had differences of opinion.
Thanks for your input, we need the other side of the debate too. It would just be more helpful if you stuck around to debate, that’s all.
July 6th, 2007 at 7:55 pm
I have been to Hillsong Church around 1992 or later. I remember watching Goeff was leading the worship and his wife leading the choir. Long time ago I thought great church great service, WOW even heard the word that was said about Goeff no one else what he will do with Hillsong from either Rick Godwin or Casy Treat then the next year he was gone. I thought Hills church was the best until one day I got the crap reved out of me from an usher or someone for walking thru a back area of the church. I was taking my son to the creche I was told I had no right to be there when I explained myself the young man was still rude to me other people was walking thru this area. One night when I was taking my son to the creche Frank was walking through this area with 6 other minders he stopped and shook my hand I have respect for this man.The last time I went to this church I needed some prayer and was at the prayer service with my son who was about 4 months old and they do not allow babies in a prayer service what rubbish I was spoken to rudely again and asked to leave I have never ever been back since. All that can be said for Hillsong is they will all have to answer to Jesus on Judgement Day that is all