detoxing from the church
One of our threads has gotten into a conversation about the idea of detoxing from the church and whether Christian community is necessary for following Jesus. This was originally a comment there, but I have elevated it to create its own thread.
As someone who is involved intimately in the mission of an established church, I declare my bias. Somewhere on this site I have mused about the ideas of christians not attending church. I think that the idea of seasons, of needing a break and needing to detox after draining involvements is totally understandable and natural. But I struggle with the idea of a churchless faith as an end point.
As an example, we can say that forgiveness is a universally important thing for Christians and I would have serious troubles with someone arguing that forgiveness is not a necessary element of being a follower of Jesus. However, I can also accept that some people’s path to forgiveness (eg survivors of incest) is so long and complex that it might not be completed within this life time. Perhaps this is not the best analogy but I can understand people in particular circumstances finding that faith communities are just too hard, but I don’t think that you rule make from the experiences of those people in those situations.
I think as humans we need to be in community. I think that particularly in today’s society we have to appreciate in the power of the communal over the individual - in the context of a world where we are taught that each of us is the most important person in the world and that we control our own destinies. I know that churches can be dismal places and people, but they can also be (and often are) wonderful redemptive and inspiring communities.
I think that the gospels were indeed on about the church In John and Matthew particularly we see a whole range of models for the way that people form communities of faith or assist each other along the road. The first thing that Jesus did was to form a community of faith who travelled together with him. He taught us to pray communally to “Our Father”.
Finally, some of the things that people sometimes react to about churches are not in fact essential characteristics of the ecclesia. The idea of formality, demands, structures or even buildings are not essential to the making of a faith community. In fact some of the people commenting here are working pretty hard at reshaping and rethinking what it means to be church in Australian society these days.
Anyway, just some general thoughts and again not being at all critical of those who comment here that they are or have been on a break from institutional church. Just teasing at some of the edges of where those “breaks” creep towards more generalised statements.
May 1st, 2006 at 3:29 pm
I am currently detoxing from “the Church.”
I was the worship leader in a pentecostal/charismatic, word of faith, prosperity doctrine teaching church. It was more about the law than grace. It was vision and purpose driven madness. I and all the other ministers eventually became burned out. The gospel, the good news got twisted, somewhere along the way.
I’m still asking myself what happened? What did I get myself into?
And I’m still asking myself if I’ll ever want to be a part of a group of Christians again.
Does God love me? YES….. How awesome is that?! Do I still believe in God and by faith, accept His grace through Jesus’ sacrifice? YES.
Am I still trusting of “the Church?” NO
May 1st, 2006 at 4:13 pm
Nice points Dan, and I agree with your views on how important this question is.
Can we maybe define what church is here? Most people who are “detoxing” are burned by a very specific form of church that is based on keeping up appearances. I think instead of trading that for a solitary walk, we should be seeking out others who yearn for a genuine faith and walk along together. Church isn’t just anything you define it to be - there are some prerequisites in my opinion - but it doesn’t have to have a building or articles of incorporation either.
May 1st, 2006 at 4:19 pm
When you say you struggle with people living a “churchless faith” do you mean a church service-less faith, or a church community? I wonder about these things too having been on the outside now for several years, with the occasional visit somewhere. A common cry is that if you aren’t ‘at church’ then you’re back-sliding which I find ignorant and farcical. But that’s not what you’re saying either.
I also wonder as I travel around farming communities and onto cattle stations occasionally for access to my work sites, how a single Christian family is supposed to fit into this neat idea that we all have to go to church and be part of a Christian fellowship. If you have never lived in the country, you may not appreciate the impossible nature Christian community is for many. There simply aren’t that many Christians ready to be bumped into in the bush. Their little stone church buildings, if they haven’t been renovated into dance studios, might get a service once a month….others simply live too far away. How are they supposed to fit the notion? Can they live out a transformed life in isolation from other Christians? Of course they can….they have little choice.
May 1st, 2006 at 4:19 pm
Sometimes people begin church hopping when maybe what is needed is a detox. Because the church they have been attending has been a a “toxic” environment instead of seeing the good points of the churches they visit they are fueled by the negativity towards their old church and cannot settle anywhere. Would this be a fair comment do you think?
May 1st, 2006 at 4:25 pm
Good points Dave.
As a Business Analyst / Project Manger, in terms of defining the scope of what something “is supposed to be” or “is supposed to look like” – its also a good exercise to define what it is NOT supposed to be .
And Church is NOT supposed to be a Business owned and controlled by CEO’s, Executives and Sales managers … that make merchandise out of people. No wonder people burn and churn. .
Perhaps it is not Church that burns people out after all…
May 1st, 2006 at 4:50 pm
As many of you know, I’m another burnt out staff member of a couple of large churches & have also been detoxing over the past couple of years.
My family decided after the horrific manner in which we were treated & cut off for asking questions, that never again would we make the institutional church the centre of our relationships with other believers. We now casually meet together & encourage numerous friends outside of any formal “cell group” or church setting. That said, we are still friends with the few sane pastors in town who see through the rubbish being preached around the place.
Not attending church every Sunday is what I would have preached against in my heyday (while my husband merrily preached on tithing & how it brings the blessing….) -but it’s funny, once you have had to unravel much of your belief system & peel everything back to the question of “where is God in all of this?” - not formally attending anywhere regularly no longer invokes feelings of condemnation & fear.
I have found that as my walk with God deepened - partly as a result of throwing myself on HIm more than ever as I lost all my ‘friends”, “career” etc -He has also bought numerous people across my path to encourage me in walking with God “outside the system.” I’ve mentioned these guys before, but the following two have been incredibly encouraging - and I do not see anything other than a mature walk evidenced by both:
Wayne Jacobsen - http://www.lifestream.org (read his online book “Why I don’t go to church anymore”)
Jack Grey - http://www.thepilgrimpath.co.nz
I’m not “anti” formalised church, but in this day and age of guru-driven Christianity which bears non of the resemblance to what Christ modelled- I find I want a faith walk that is more authentic.
May 1st, 2006 at 4:59 pm
Jane….
A very beautiful, authentic and candid post.
I admire your honesty
May 1st, 2006 at 5:09 pm
I actually have an extremely low bar for what I consider to be a church community - all about identification and acceptance by the whole. It doesn’t need to be institutional, it doesn’t need to have a defined denomination or theology, but it needs to be two or more gathering in his name. I believe that a missional engagement can be a church, hell I even believe an online community can be a church!!
I just know from myself that if someone were to say that they were really committed to the labor party and local politics and it was a central part of their life, but were not actually in community and conversation with any part of the body of people who shared that interest and goal, then it raises questions for me. As a matter of self-awareness, if I were not a part of a faith community, my commitment, accountability and resourcing for mission would be severely impaired. I think that going it alone in terms of faith is an incredibly difficult thing and one which is extraordinarily difficult to maintain the same level of commitment, growth and missional engagement. And the cynical part of me says that it is so difficult to do, that the number of people who claim to be doing it raises question marks for me.
(again, not a comment on anyone here, and this is setting aside those in a grief/flux mode with a particular church).
May 1st, 2006 at 5:11 pm
PS that was a comment long in the drafting and not in response to Jane’s comment.
May 1st, 2006 at 5:13 pm
It is so nice to know that I am not alone! I thought I was the only one on detox but trying to still follow Jesus in community with others. I’ve found a whole new group of people. Why, why, why does the organised church cause such pain? I guess for starters the imagination of mega churches is about being a corporation (purpose driven?!?) rather then a relationally driven community.
May 1st, 2006 at 5:44 pm
After serving in the music ministry for many years, we also left our church. Mostly because we were in the middle of a nasty (but the nastiness was always denied) church split. It felt like our parents were separating…and we were in the middle being asked to choose…eventually we chose neither…
Since then, we have tried a couple of churches…unsuccessfully. We are now in a time of “detox”…probably should have done that before “church hopping” but we were so keen to be part of something, I think we lost ourselves on the way.
Now, I’m slowly rediscovering my faith, alongside processing the pain of such great disappointment. We hope to re-join church one day…but to be honest, I’m very scared that it will only reaffirm my disappointment in it. I’m not after a perfect church…just a place that is a community, where people are respected, loved, given freedom to be themselves…a place of realness and not hype…a place where slickness and spin aren’t the predominant means of communication…a place where social justice is valued more than church finances…surely that’s not too much to ask…
May 1st, 2006 at 5:53 pm
Hello Andrew
You are certainly not alone!
I’ve not attended a church now for 10 years, apart from specific family occasions.
I do understand your mis-trust in church, this is not uncommon for people who’ve been spiritually abused or burnt out by the church system.
Like you, my own experience hasn’t lessened my faith in God. I now have a better understanding of Grace. Having done some reading on spiritual abuse, I’ve found it’s not uncommon for victims to abandon their faith. This is an outcome which I think is very sad. However, your post encourages me in that, despite all you’ve been through, your faith has survived intact.
Although signposts is not a ‘church’, since discovering this site earlier this year, I’ve not only found old friends, I’ve also found fellowship and a sense of community. It’s been quite a cathartic experience really and I think a healing one.
May 1st, 2006 at 6:49 pm
I have found that wearing slices of cucumbers on my eyes after a hard day’s blogging good for the detox process.
May 1st, 2006 at 7:31 pm
Thanks Lionfish, I’ll try that!!
May 1st, 2006 at 7:57 pm
I need detox, and I think my girlfriend does too. We’ll attend, but not contribute.
Nice advice Lionfish! -( begins slicing cucumber )-
May 1st, 2006 at 9:31 pm
I have been pondering the whole ‘detox from Church’ concept for a while now.
I haven’t regularly attended a Church now for nearly four years.
I’m not sure whether or not this is the right thing to do, but honestly, to walk into a Church nowadays, any Church, makes me physically sick. I’ve tried on a number of occassions to go.
I do think that the concept of Church has becone extremely distorted. It’s not about a building, a name or even a collection of Churches but it should be about a group of people. Church these days has become quite the political activity. Being gay, I thought I would find some sort of ‘peace’ in attending a gay friendly Church or even ’spiritual group’. But these groups tend to be more political and narrow minded than most of the mainstream/major Churches they claim to ’save people from’.
Having grown up in a Christian home, been heavily involved in ‘Church life’ - right at this point has made me so disillusioned and is really starting to effect my life as a whole.
May 1st, 2006 at 9:43 pm
I can’t bring myself to transcribe Phil Pringle and Pat Mesiti’s messages from this week’s Christian City Church services, because they’re just too appalling.
May 1st, 2006 at 9:49 pm
Splat, try avoiding churches for 25 years - that’s more than enough time to completely detox. In fact, from all the commentary I read about AOG and mega-churches, it might just be fun to go along and poke fun at the attendees, or at least have a good laugh. This is the other side of detoxification. Any thoughts on this?
May 1st, 2006 at 9:52 pm
Donald Duck … Would you poke fun at the victims of a carefully orhestrated fraud …?
Lance … you need to transcribe the Pat Meisti messages on our behalf.
May 1st, 2006 at 9:56 pm
“…it might just be fun to go along and poke fun at the attendees,…”
Perhaps a group could be arranged, like a tour group. Strength in numbers and all that. Now that could be fun….
May 1st, 2006 at 10:09 pm
For those missing the Conference scene and sick of Hillsong join this group:
“Here you will live a greater appreciation of the wonderful message entrusted to by the to humanity.
Through teachings and meditations you will learn techniques for personal fulfillment that aims at awakening the mind. You will learn to take control over your life by getting rid of guilt and fears forever. The experience will increase your self-confidence and esteem, to enjoy life at its fullest. You will gain a greater awareness of your responsibilities and learn how to give yourself the tools to reach your goals. You will learn daily the practice of sensual meditation.
These meditations will allow you to detach from your conditioned education and be your true self, able to live stress-free and in harmony without the use of artificial means. You will experience a noticeable improvement in all areas of your life; professionally, philosophically, emotionally and sexually. Rediscovering the true state of happiness, experiencing the infinity of existence, celebrating and keeping it alive. During the Seminar you will be in control of every aspect of your development, at your own pace. Guides will be there to support in your personal growth.
This Seminar is the ideal opportunity to evaluate your life and start your personal project of unfolding in order to attain the happiness that you deserve.
http://australia.rael.org/
What’s the difference. They both come with a Charismatic Leader, some dodgy beliefs and a hefty price tag.
May 1st, 2006 at 10:17 pm
Jane…thanks for the link to Wayne Jacobsen’s site. I’m half-way through the online book…totally amazing! I can feel the chains melting off…
May 2nd, 2006 at 12:12 am
GR: “Sometimes people begin church hopping when maybe what is needed is a detox. Because the church they have been attending has been a a “toxic” environment instead of seeing the good points of the churches they visit they are fueled by the negativity towards their old church and cannot settle anywhere.”
It is now about 4 years since we resigned from a large HS clone after more than 25 years. I can identify with the need to detox; but i think the problem is more than just being unable to see the good points of churches we visit. For some of us, we consider that our trust has been betrayed by the the leadership, so we are hesitant to trust leadership again. Our hope remains in Christ alone; our trust remains in Him, but at the same time we are very sensitive to any “control” mechanisms. And what we have observed is that churches that have been well-founded on and in the Word are now generally looking to HS and Phil Pringle as a model of church growth. So i guess its just a matter of time till we get to tithe and double tithe and first fruit offer and make faith promises for the miracle! Oops … is my negativity showing? We do see so many good points; but we are truly afraid of being either sucked into the vortex of law or being marginalised and driven away again if we refuse to conform to law.
Beware “Church Covenants”!!
Yes Andrew: Lets beware “the purpose driven …” If youve read any of this stuff by RW, you might be familiar with his suggested strategies for dealing with “resisters”. …
Methinks there are a lot of wounded sheep that have been scattered and are wandering. May the Lord grant us all His grace and may we find fellowship together in Him.
Nite all!
May 2nd, 2006 at 12:28 am
LF, #21 spose u think yore funny! Probably is funny to your perverse little mind!
Tragic, really tho! Doesn’t your heart ache for the weak and vulnerable who about to sucked in, trapped, exploited and spat out?
May 2nd, 2006 at 6:25 am
#7 thanks for the kind words B for A,
#22 I’m glad you are enjoying the site PJ. I found it a really refreshing place that made no demands other than to encourage me in my walk with God. It was a great contrast to all the research I was doing to unravel the matrix we had been absorbed in.
Like Splat, I’ve had physical symptoms in some churches - panic attacks etc.
James says: “And what we have observed is that churches that have been well-founded on and in the Word are now generally looking to HS and Phil Pringle as a model of church growth.” Some friends think we are just cynical & see a demon under every rock - but James has hit the nail on the head. The infiltration of dodgy teaching, control & warped authority is permeating so many churches now due to the influence of big conferences & boppy slick music, that choices are incredibly limited as far as organised churches go. I must prefer the “organic” church built on Christ & networked amongst believers as opposed to one where we have to have a man mediate between us and God.
May 2nd, 2006 at 7:01 am
Jane: “… where we have to have a man mediate between us and God.” Could this of the heart of the New Paradign heresy? Just for interest; wonder if you are aware of the meaning of the word that is tranlated “witchcraft” in OT?
May 2nd, 2006 at 7:36 am
Thanks for expanding on that Dan
May 2nd, 2006 at 9:34 am
The root of the word translated witchcraft from memory has to do with drugs? I seem to remember a sermon based on this at some time - will look this one up.
May 2nd, 2006 at 10:48 am
Regarding #18 “…it might just be fun to go along and poke fun at the attendees…”
That is perverse.
May 2nd, 2006 at 11:00 am
I came across this interesting article today regarding the whole issue of Detoxing From the Church. This is worth a read.
http://www.theofframp.org/Detox.html
Here’s part of the article:
“Imagine what you would have left after you remove from your life everything connected with the organizational church. I mean everything. I’ve discovered the hard way that living most of my adult life in cultural Christianity has formed my entire identity as a Christian. And when everything in my life connected with the church is gone, including sixteen years of professional ministry, I’m confronted with the true raw status my personal faith.
Now I’m going to say something harsh: In order to BE the Church, we need to leave the church. In other words, in order to truly become God’s people as he intended, we must abandon our cultural version of organizational church. The application of this statement might vary, but it must happen. And as we abandon the church to become the Church, we will go through a detox period.
Why such drastic measures? Involvement in an organizational consumer-driven church blinds us to the real state of our lives. By participating in this kind of church I can enjoy inspiring worship, biblical exposition of Scripture, fellowship, small groups, kids programs, service projects, missions, discipleship, books, radio broadcasts, multimedia presentations and virtually anything else I need in my spiritual life. In fact, I can enjoy an entirely alternative lifestyle where Christianity is prepackaged for me – books, music, entertainment, news reports, advice, etc. And as I consume it, it forms a façade over the real condition of my life. The rub is when my true condition actually bubbles to the surface and I find myself troubled, discontent or miserable. Then the church or the pastor or the worship team has lost the “anointing” and I must find a new organizational church that will provide me what I need to feel better about who I am.
In this distorted perspective, I fail to recognize that the true state of my life and faith is who I am and what I do in relation to God and his kingdom, not who I am and what I do in relation to the church.”
by Jason Zahariades, from Detoxing From The Church.