detoxing from the church
One of our threads has gotten into a conversation about the idea of detoxing from the church and whether Christian community is necessary for following Jesus. This was originally a comment there, but I have elevated it to create its own thread.
As someone who is involved intimately in the mission of an established church, I declare my bias. Somewhere on this site I have mused about the ideas of christians not attending church. I think that the idea of seasons, of needing a break and needing to detox after draining involvements is totally understandable and natural. But I struggle with the idea of a churchless faith as an end point.
As an example, we can say that forgiveness is a universally important thing for Christians and I would have serious troubles with someone arguing that forgiveness is not a necessary element of being a follower of Jesus. However, I can also accept that some people’s path to forgiveness (eg survivors of incest) is so long and complex that it might not be completed within this life time. Perhaps this is not the best analogy but I can understand people in particular circumstances finding that faith communities are just too hard, but I don’t think that you rule make from the experiences of those people in those situations.
I think as humans we need to be in community. I think that particularly in today’s society we have to appreciate in the power of the communal over the individual - in the context of a world where we are taught that each of us is the most important person in the world and that we control our own destinies. I know that churches can be dismal places and people, but they can also be (and often are) wonderful redemptive and inspiring communities.
I think that the gospels were indeed on about the church In John and Matthew particularly we see a whole range of models for the way that people form communities of faith or assist each other along the road. The first thing that Jesus did was to form a community of faith who travelled together with him. He taught us to pray communally to “Our Father”.
Finally, some of the things that people sometimes react to about churches are not in fact essential characteristics of the ecclesia. The idea of formality, demands, structures or even buildings are not essential to the making of a faith community. In fact some of the people commenting here are working pretty hard at reshaping and rethinking what it means to be church in Australian society these days.
Anyway, just some general thoughts and again not being at all critical of those who comment here that they are or have been on a break from institutional church. Just teasing at some of the edges of where those “breaks” creep towards more generalised statements.
May 9th, 2006 at 1:56 pm
I did check out this Koorong thing. A quick google search seems to confirm that it’s still owned by the Bootes family who began it over 30 years ago. I remember (am I dating myself irretrievably?) when we first heard of them, this new organisation on the other side of Sydney that were dedicated to selling “quality Christian books”. In those days the most hardline calvinists I knew loved them best. Something has changed in the interim. I don’t want to point fingers, my own theology has changed in 30 years too, and a bit of inclusiveness is probably a better thing than doctrinal elitism, but i still find something troubling about the place they have shifted to…
May 9th, 2006 at 2:06 pm
Might it be even Baptists like turning a profit? Cheap, crappy books from America do sell, somehow.
May 9th, 2006 at 3:03 pm
I bought Brian Mclarens book “A Generous Orthodoxy” from Koorong! Ah - from America, yes…but not cheap or crappy!
May 9th, 2006 at 3:17 pm
“I’m so seldom wrong that it’s quite frightening sometimes”
Are you able to provide any feedback on “A Generous Orthodoxy” - would be interested; notwithstanding your above delusion!
Blestpickle, i better withhold comment on Koorong ownership then!
May 9th, 2006 at 3:26 pm
Sure - I loved the book. I found it had a lot to say about how we can be true to what church experience and history has to say as well as our emerging understanding of the bible and “orthodox” doctrine! It is not going to resonate with everyone - in fact I doubt that a doctrinely conservative person would enjoy it at all - although I could be wrong. It really is worth a read and I’d love to hear what you thought of it.
I kind of viewed it as a bit of a manifesto for Brian himself and the emerging church in general.
May 9th, 2006 at 3:39 pm
Greg, our local koorong has a copy of “A Generous Orthodoxy” in stock; i plan to check it out.
As for ownership; A google search turned up the same as that found by blestpickle; does seem to be with same family. Sorry for the apparant mistake!
May 9th, 2006 at 9:02 pm
I got 2 free tickets to the Hillsong Conference 06, who wants to come with?
May 10th, 2006 at 1:44 am
mmmmm……slanty
http://www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/diaz/222/mslanty.wav
May 10th, 2006 at 9:30 am
Janet (and Jamesh) Re: “… I’d be really interested to hear of how you see people can find healing from their traumatic experiences… it’s so common to see people trapped in the victim treadmill… it’s an awful thing”.
• Another side of the coin…
“When I ask you to listen to me and you start giving me advice, you have not done what I asked. When I ask you to listen to me and you begin to tell me why I shouldn’t feel that way, you are trampling on my feelings.
When I ask you to listen to me and you feel you have to do something to solve my problem, you have failed me, strange as that may seem. All I asked was that you listen, not talk to me — just hear me.
Advice is cheap; a few dollars will get you all the opinions you can handle in Dolly or Cleo magazines etc. I can do for myself; I’m not helpless — maybe discouraged and faltering, but not helpless.
When you do something for me that I can and need to do for myself, you contribute to my fear and sense of inadequacy.
When you accept as a simple fact that I do feel what I feel, no matter how irrational, then I can quit trying to convince you and can get about this business of understanding what’s behind this irrational feeling. When that’s clear, the answers are obvious and I don’t need advice.
Irrational feelings make more sense when we understand what’s behind them. Perhaps that’s why prayer works, sometimes, for some people - God is mute, and He doesn’t give advice or try to fix things. “He” just listens and lets you work it out for yourself.
So please listen and just hear me. And if you want to talk, wait a minute for your turn — and I’ll listen to you” - Author Anonymous.
Jack-of-it!
May 10th, 2006 at 3:18 pm
I agree wholeheartedly… it have been irritated at times on signposts with the tendency for some to leap in with advice (and theological ammunition) when it seemed obvious to me that understanding and listening were a far more appropriate response.
I don’t recall leaping in with advice to you… I did post a muse about some people wanting to hold on to their pain because I was reflecting on a friend who seems so stuck in a horrible negative cycle… I guess it was not clear that this was in no way directed to you and I apologise if it came across that way. On the contrary, I am amazed at your grit and God’s grace that you have come through so much, and appreciate your insights about this.
May 10th, 2006 at 4:45 pm
Janet: Sorry mate I wasn’t infering anything in regard to you of Jamesh … just tossing in something else for consideration along the lines of your query.
And this wasn’t intended to highlght anything regarding any other posts either; simply trying to show that one reason why people remain victims is that they feel that they are (so often) not adequately listened to and eventually give up even trying.
Jack-of-it!
May 10th, 2006 at 4:57 pm
Janet, you said: “Thank you for sharing, Jack-of-it… there is much to learn from those who have walked through pain and not been defined by it… instead found life through a really tough journey in the grace of God. I have a sneaking suspicion some just get attached to their pain, and don’t want to be healed…. but I’m not wanting to judge those who have gone through really tough stuff. I’ve been known to nurse a “sook” on far more minor matters”.
Many of us tend to hang onto to our hurts etc. long after the initial experience; there can be many reasons for this – here’s one. In a strange way, hanging onto our hurt actually empowers us. Let me try to explain.
When under the influence of controlling or manipulative behaviour etc. you are of course disempowered. When you become aware of your true condition and finally break away you begin to feel empowered; but the initial feelings of euphoria etc. (although they cause a much needed feeling of elation or an elevation of our mood etc); unfortunately do not last.
You then often become increasingly overwhelmed by a whole horde of negative ‘stuff’ including confusion, despair (even depression) fear and of course anger … these are natural consequences of breaking free of any form of control. One of the most predominant and long lasting emotions experienced at such times, is anger. This can manifest in two distinct ways: anger turned inward (which leads to depression); and anger directed outwards (which provides among other things a cathartic release).
The latter provides us with a ‘buzz’ … it actually feels good to get it out – and of course this is quite legitimate. Unfortunately if our anger responses (or worse, ‘knee jerk’ reactions) are not ‘controlled’ (there’s the rub) we then end up hurting others and run the risk of being labelled (among other things) manipulative or controlling ourselves – ouch!! You can therefore literally become the very thing that you feared the most (ouch again)!! See Job 3:25.
When the reality begins to set in that ‘YOU’ are hurting others, you can then begin to ‘see-saw’ between guilt related responses and further anger responses. But who wants to feel more guilt? And so one way to avoid the former is to ‘maintain the rage’ … ‘champion the cause of the underdog’ etc. etc. Unfortunately this can lead to an entrenched pattern of rationalisation and justification that hardens the heart and prolongs the ‘victimisation’ rationale.
We need to allow ourselves to experience the full range of emotions associated with our hurts etc. in a safe environment. Anonymity such as that which is provided by ‘signposts’ is a ONE legitimate means of achieving this; provided that we all understand what’s happening and don’t ‘take it personally’! But this is only the beginning, our negative responses should begin to lessen as we allow the Lord to extend grace and forgiveness and teach us (usually through others) how to apply these to ourselves and others.
I should add here, that this is an incredibly complex phenomenon and we are not even ‘scratching the surface’ yet!
Thanks for your comments I appreciate it. In case others out there do not so understand … hmm … am I communicating adequately?
Just in case … I’ll now duck for cover … Donald move over!
Jack-of-it!
May 10th, 2006 at 5:45 pm
Thank you again for sharing. I know someone who is kind of crashing and burning with everyone she knows… I sort of understand it, but am powerless to stop it… anger is threatening to destroy all her “safe places” and I find it heartbreaking. And I’m really hurt by her rejection of me, so I suppose I’m trying to process all this tough stuff.
Life can be so crap for some can’t it? Signposts has kind of been my personal therapy lately as I’ve watched a life spiraling out of control and almost fallen down an emotional vortex myself.
Your words do help my understand a lilttle more, so thank you.
May 10th, 2006 at 11:21 pm
Last week’s ‘offering’ from Phil Pringle’s Christian City Church Oxford Falls.
http://203.89.236.8/ramgen/ccc/30040610am.rm
“(Phil Pringle) If you need a credit card slip, it’s on the edge of your envelope, so you just tear that off, and you can fill out details on that.
If you need an envelope because you haven’t got that just raise your hand and an usher will look after you.
So just while we’re getting ready to give, Mark (Kelsey) is gonna come and talk to us.
I don’t think I need to say much more.
(MK) Hey, but uh, there’s a great scripture in 1st Corinthians, that’s not normally used in offerings, but at the end of 1st Corinthians 13 it says….it makes the distinction between now and then.
It says..’now we don’t see everything; we don’t know everything…but then…’ talking about after we’re with Christ in Heaven ..it says ‘we will see everything and know everything.’
And you know, I reckon, we will have, when we get to heaven we will have the great divine ‘aha!’.
When we get to heaven we’ll go …’aha! now I get it’.
We’ll see everything clearly.
I reckon we will see the results of our offerings. We will see the power of them …what they accomplished.
I think we’ll be amazed and surprised at what God did.
And that next part of the scripture says, “however, you can’t see everything, you don’t know everything, but what I do give you now, these three things remain, faith, hope and love’.
And if, in any situation you’re in, in your life as a believer, you may not know everything, you may not see the results, you may not know what to do, but if you apply one of those three things, either faith, hope or love, then you’ll do the will of God, and that will release the Kingdom of God in that situation.
I believe it even applies to our giving.
Right now, we’re giving, you can’t see, you can’t figure it all out.
I wish we could, I wish we could ….I put a hundred dollars in, and tomorrow get a thousand dollars back..and it’s not like that.
We wish it was like that but it isn’t, in some ways it’s sort of messy but it isn’t, because God sees it; we don’t see it…but giving…this morning we’re giving in faith.
Who’s believing this morning, anyone? Did I say faith….(”faith”) are you believing this morning…?
Like, we gave in the miracle offering, Bernie and I, and we’re believing, we’re actually believing for a specific thing, and it’s like our faith was enacted by that gift.
Now, some of you this morning, you’re giving in faith, but you’re also giving in hope.
Every week you just give, it’s not like you have anything specific in mind, but week after week after week, year after year you’re believing.
You may not have seen the results of it but…..hope I think is misunderstood a lot in the Kingdom of God….it’s like…..’oh…I hope so’.
I don’t believe that… I believe hope is the most powerful thing there is.
You’re in hope, Jesus went into the grave in hope, because sometimes faith says ’see you later’….but when faith says ’see you later’ then hope comes.
Hope gets you out of the grave through the situation.
Some of you have given five years ago, ten years ago …but tell me that your hope is alive.
The thing will eventually sprout out of the ground and be resurrected into a great result…
Is anybody believing for that this morning?
And also we can give and have an offering of love, a love offering.
Last night we had a missions offering and Helen Maguire got up and talked about building a medical clinic in Uganda, and I felt the love of God move through the congregation to give…..not in faith, we’re believing though out of love.
You give out of love.
(PP:”it’s good”)
The three powerful Christian emotions and Christian motivators are faith, hope and love.
This morning, give out of one of those.
Don’t give out of duty….don’t give out of…’urrrrrrr’…don’t do that, because it won’t work.
That if you give believing, give hoping and give loving, then the power of God will move.
Let’s close our eyes as we give. (PP:”thank you Lord)
Father this morning, we love you, we believe you, let the power of God come upon this offering Lord, and Lord we want Heaven to hear our offering, to see it, because it’s coming to you in faith.
It’s coming to you in hope, and we’re giving it out of love.
In Jesus’ name, Amen.
Awesome, let’s give this morning.”
Length of offering talk…4:45.
May 11th, 2006 at 9:31 am
Lance, how do you do it? Another impressive offering.
These offering talks are really funny… apart from the sobering fact that thousands of people are being indoctrinated to give so “God’s magic” can be released… the other “offering talks” you have posted reflect this too.
It’s seems to be the modern version of an ancient practice… no longer do people offer grain and animal sacrifices to appease the gods of agriculture and fertility… they offer money to God to release the “100 fold abundance” magic.
It’s a bizarre view of God that emerges from churches that teach like this… not Yahweh is Lord and I serve and obey for this reason alone… more like God is wanting to give you everything you want and will do so if you give money to him (ie the church). New fashioned idolatory… potentially very profitable.
May 11th, 2006 at 10:24 am
Good old Jesus Claus….
May 11th, 2006 at 12:14 pm
I remember a little boy who was blieving God for a bicycle but he didnt have enough faith, so he stole a bike then asked God to forgive Him.
Its a lot easier that way.
May 11th, 2006 at 1:01 pm
Lance:
I don’t know how you can stomach the tripe that you painstakingly transcribe for us each week. Personally when I read such blatant hypocrisy I am torn between two, almost overwhelming emotions; immense sadness (for the unwitting recipients of this evil practice) and incredible hostility (towards these religious charlatans). However, having said that, let me attempt to bring some balance; without in any way diminishing the horror of this unbiblical practice.
Some of the guys (used to ‘share’ … ‘spread the culpability’ … ah … ‘we can’t all be wrong’ … or used for the sake of … ‘piggy backing on someone’s favourable rapport with the people’) are lower level leaders and are often ‘sheltered’ from the ordinary folk, whose stories of hurt, suffering and disillusionment I have heard so many times - people who have believed that somehow the Lord would honour what these purveyors of false hope have (unwittingly or otherwise) lead them to expect. I mean, we can’t have our senior team members exposed to the consequences of this ‘teaching’ (evil filth); they might just start to question God’s anointed (us) and think for themselves.
On the other hand, many who are involved in ‘Pastoral Care’ for example (and therefore acquainted with such suffering) are often confronted with their own crisis of faith, after constantly being exposed to the needs of the people they seek to serve whilst trying to (loyally) uphold the ‘faith’ (company line) they are forced to comply with (or be branded by … there are so many … choose your favourite (or worst)).
The Church in the west is in crisis at the moment, as more and more of its leaders are discovering that what they were lead to believe, is none other than ‘another gospel’ and a dangerously evil one at that – didn’t the bible forewarned us that all this was coming?
Perhaps this explains why some are slow to come to this realisation; I mean who wants to believe that they have unwittingly (or otherwise) played a part in such evil? And, perhaps even more troubling (in terms of letting go denial etc), when are you ‘ready’ to deal with the consequences of all this in your own life?
I apologise for the fact that this is not well constructed (just belted it out) but I’m too angry to continue … just needed to get this out of my system!
(Note to self … ‘small doses’ … remember small doses!)
Jack-of-it!
May 11th, 2006 at 1:07 pm
Rambling is good for the soul.
Better out than in (except for Phil Pringle’s office farts).
The minimum standard for making sense on Signposts is set by Homer.
So as long as you’re making at least no sense at all…you can post here.
May 12th, 2006 at 11:05 am
There has been a fair bit of discussion in this thread on ‘control’, seemingly under the guise of ‘authority’.
I have not read any of the books by John Bevere, however the one entitled “Under Cover: The Promise of Protection Under His Authority”, (if readers comments are anything to go on), takes authority too far. One comment from http://www.lowth.com/catalogue/w9/gk9jaj-under-cover.html , that is echoed on quite a number of other websites …
Unfortunately, Bevere misses it also when he encourages believers to submit to church authorities even when they are out of line and err from truth. The Bible NEVER sanctions such requirements on believers!
This book would be a popular one amongst Pastors who want (absolute) power and (absolute) control of the flock.
May 12th, 2006 at 4:45 pm
We discussed that book some time back oygle & yes, a number of large pentecostal churches in auckland took their leadership along to hear Bevere preach his message of “obey your leader even if he is wrong & God will bless you”….hmmmm, shades of Nuremburg? (sp?)
Bevere is now a darling of the HS network speaking at HS soon I think.
Best antidote is to read “Who is your covering?”by Frank Viola.
May 12th, 2006 at 5:17 pm
Thanks for the information on the antidote Jane
I see the book at Amazon, and some excerpts of the book here and here.
May 12th, 2006 at 6:45 pm
Hey Jane - Bevere’s book sounds an awful lot like the Ethos promoted @ CCC…
Their take is that you follow the ‘Man of God’ as he follows his ‘Vision’ - they promote this deception that it doesn’t matter what the leader is doing, as long as you’re faithful to him (the leader) God will sort the leader out.
It’s dressed up in the whole serving mentality and the illustration of David and Saul get’s trotted out again and again…
It’s a really warped mentality and it’s just not supported by scripture. How would they explain Elijah? Didn’t he directly confront King Ahab prophesy of his wife Jezebel’s death? (1 Kings 21.23).
Here is Jesus take on how to lead others -
“But Jesus, having summoned them said, You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them… Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, shall be your servant” Matt 20.25
If only Christians read their bibles, none of this John Bevere rubbish would even leave the bookstore…
WIGGY
May 12th, 2006 at 9:38 pm
Hi Wiggy, that is the same ethos that is taught at many of the leadership meetings in the HS network of churches as well as being a standard message at many a “leadership” conference.
I’ve heard pastors twist scripture & use many OT scriptures to promote this concept- whether intentionally or out of sheer ignorance - that they carry the “vision” for the “local house” to which the average person is called to remain “planted in” else they’ll be cut off from God’s perfect “will for their life.”
I can’t believe that I lived in such bondage for so long, but as someone brought up somewhere else o this site, - I was indeed the perfect candidate, having both a desire to serve God & a need for approval.This meant that I worked myself to the bone & when things were blantantly wrong or unfair - I took it on the chin & kept a “good attitude”. After all, we were always told that if we “built God’s house, He would build ours” (especially at special offering times) & that you had to serve another man’s vision (your pastor’s) before God would give you “the desires of your heart.”
Small grains of scripture- enough to sound vagually Christian but the reality is bondage & eventually incapacitation as you doubt your own ability to hear God or make decisions for yourself.
May 13th, 2006 at 12:14 am
The Atheist Foundation of Australia have a “free offer” running at the moment: free associate membership for one year plus the April 06 copy of the “The Atheist Newsletter” free.
What an opportunity for those detoxing from the church to get some fresh air.
May 13th, 2006 at 12:04 pm
Does anyone have information on the Secular Party of Australia (www.secular.org.au). Its stated aims are.
They sound just the sort of political party that some signpost readers may be interested in joining.
May 13th, 2006 at 1:29 pm
That’s some very good prosyletising Don.
Next you need a system of beliefs about how to make money…..
Perhaps the teaching could be something along the lines of….”…as there is no God, we must be responsible for the supplying of each other’s financial needs….and the Athiest Foundation will help you with your financial needs (eventually), as you help us with ours.”
Then invite other athiest friends from around the world to teach at your meetings..and you fly over and teach at their meetings, and you’re off and away.
The prosyletising is a good start though….just remember to include a bait and switch strategy at some point..(bait them with the promise of no God, and then switch the emphasis to some other teaching once they’re in the door, like churches do with baiting with grace and salvation, and then switch to law and the endless ‘building the house of God’ requirement…..easily done..).
May 13th, 2006 at 5:26 pm
I could never adopt the rich set of beliefs required to regularly attend and donate to the various money-machine churches.
The problem with not having beliefs is that it leaves nothing to prosyletise with.
May 15th, 2006 at 6:41 pm
Gosh what a mammoth read since last I posted. As I have said I am in the process of deciding how best to deal with the situation I find myself in - attending a church where I often strongly disagree with the teaching and the top down leadership style.
I currently attend a smallish congregation of a largish AOG church. Not HS but very very close to it with the Senior Pastor being on the National Exec.
I am having trouble with the teaching as related to covering theology, tithing/prosperity theology and most recently teaching relating to reasoning and offense. Has anybody else come across teaching on this subject. We are at present being continually bomabarded with how wrong it is to take offense. This in itself is ok but when it related to being not offended by what is preached or in other words do not question what is preached of you will be guilty of taking offense. Also not using reasoning because God demands our obedience He does not reason with us. Therefore it being extrapolated that you do not reason with leadership or call into question what they do.
My husband disagrees with me but this is no surprise as it totally underlines what he believes and continually upholds his ideas of how I should be submissive to him as he the one who holds authority. So caught between a rock and a hard place of not being able to express myself I turn to this blog.
May 15th, 2006 at 6:56 pm
GraceRec; youve touched on yet another heresy. Can somebody point us to the scripture that suggests that a pastor or a fellowship or any group of believers forms our “covering”. In we are in Christ than we our sin is covered by his blood - He is our covering; … when we left we were warned about the danger of leaving the covering, sooooooo, as you do, we did a search of Scripture. What could we find … nothing to support the argument presented. Funny irony of it all, it had never come to my attention as a false teaching until we were personally confronted.
Im still quite happy to be corrected; does anybody know where this “covering” teaching comes from???