detoxing from the church
One of our threads has gotten into a conversation about the idea of detoxing from the church and whether Christian community is necessary for following Jesus. This was originally a comment there, but I have elevated it to create its own thread.
As someone who is involved intimately in the mission of an established church, I declare my bias. Somewhere on this site I have mused about the ideas of christians not attending church. I think that the idea of seasons, of needing a break and needing to detox after draining involvements is totally understandable and natural. But I struggle with the idea of a churchless faith as an end point.
As an example, we can say that forgiveness is a universally important thing for Christians and I would have serious troubles with someone arguing that forgiveness is not a necessary element of being a follower of Jesus. However, I can also accept that some people’s path to forgiveness (eg survivors of incest) is so long and complex that it might not be completed within this life time. Perhaps this is not the best analogy but I can understand people in particular circumstances finding that faith communities are just too hard, but I don’t think that you rule make from the experiences of those people in those situations.
I think as humans we need to be in community. I think that particularly in today’s society we have to appreciate in the power of the communal over the individual - in the context of a world where we are taught that each of us is the most important person in the world and that we control our own destinies. I know that churches can be dismal places and people, but they can also be (and often are) wonderful redemptive and inspiring communities.
I think that the gospels were indeed on about the church In John and Matthew particularly we see a whole range of models for the way that people form communities of faith or assist each other along the road. The first thing that Jesus did was to form a community of faith who travelled together with him. He taught us to pray communally to “Our Father”.
Finally, some of the things that people sometimes react to about churches are not in fact essential characteristics of the ecclesia. The idea of formality, demands, structures or even buildings are not essential to the making of a faith community. In fact some of the people commenting here are working pretty hard at reshaping and rethinking what it means to be church in Australian society these days.
Anyway, just some general thoughts and again not being at all critical of those who comment here that they are or have been on a break from institutional church. Just teasing at some of the edges of where those “breaks” creep towards more generalised statements.
May 15th, 2006 at 6:57 pm
You are in a bad spot. If your pastor is on the executive, you are amongst wolves. Work out your own salvation with fear & trembling. RUN AWAY.
May 15th, 2006 at 7:58 pm
Duck, you miss the point of detoxing What an opportunity for those detoxing from the church to get some fresh air.
Miss the point as i see it at least. I am detoxing from controlling hierachy, from non-biblical teaching, from law and legalism, from teaching and practices that wound the weak and trusting and vulnerable. NOT detoxing from the church. Actually, im on a quest to discover the church - out there and in me.
Maybe you would care to detox from atheism. I 4 1 will neither mock nor consider you a conquest. Just recognise that you and i, like so many others, are simply searching for the light of truth.
May the Lord grant you and i the grace to humble ourselves before God, and so be found by Him.
May 15th, 2006 at 8:35 pm
“continually bomabarded with how wrong it is to take offense”
That’s seems an overly negative and stupid teaching, if I may say so.
Why not teach people how to deal with their emotions, and teach people how to negotiate with others who are perceived to continually give offense.
I would have thought that “taking offense” is bound to happen in our society - one reason is cultural diversity, in that you are bound to cause or take offense if you mix with enough people from different cultures. This doesn’t mean it’s “sinful”, it should instead be treated as a learning experience for all parties involved. Discussion, humour and a generally cheerful approach can do a lot to minimise the harm from any offence, unintended or otherwise.
Why stay in a church that is that idiotic? Here’s a suggestion: find a better church and then “sell” it to your friends attending the old church.
May 15th, 2006 at 10:52 pm
does anybody know where this “covering” teaching comes from???
It would seem it is mostly sourced from teaching by John Bevere
http://www.signposts.org.au/2005/07/19/five-fold-ministry/
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/bevere.html
http://www.ferretexpert.info/stuff-0785269916.html
http://www.lowth.com/catalogue/w9/gk9jaj-under-cover.html
http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:XCVtzMkHrbcJ:www.cashmailer.net/1843-2/+%2Bjohn+%2Bbevere+%2Bheresy&hl=en&gl=au&ct=clnk&cd=5
http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:66ni3SQrBjQJ:christianityforums.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php%3F/ubb/get_topic/f/4/t/000393/p/3.html+%2Bjohn+%2Bbevere+%2Bheresy&hl=en&gl=au&ct=clnk&cd=6
http://www.enotalone.com/books/0785269916.html
and the antidote is a book mentioned on the Amazon book site:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0966665716/102-0786401-4241708?v=glance&n=283155
May 16th, 2006 at 11:36 am
The antidote book is not easy to find. It is called “Who Is Your Covering?”: A Fresh Look at Leadership, Authority, and Accountability.
by Frank Viola. ( ISBN: 0966665716 )
Koorong and Word seem to indicate it is out of stock.
http://orders.koorong.com.au/search/details.jhtml?code=0966665716
http://www.word.com.au/details.aspx?ProductID=520523
However, the book can be ordered from WA BUCHANAN & CO -
contact details
May 16th, 2006 at 1:57 pm
Anybody got a copy of Frank Viola’s “Who is Your Covering?: A Fresh Look at Leadership, Authority, and Accountability ” who might be willing to lend it to me via Australia Post. It is out of print and Word and Koorong do not have any stock.
Let me know and I can email you via dan and Phil if that is Ok with them.
May 16th, 2006 at 1:59 pm
Hey you got in before I refreshed my screen oygle…. thanks
May 16th, 2006 at 2:04 pm
Hi Grace,
I loaned mine out & it was never returned!
Frank Viola’s website is: http://www.ptmin.org/books.htm
I don’t endorse absolutely everything he says, but I can recommend the 2 other books he wrote in series with the above called “Rethinking the Wineskin” & “Pagan Christianity” which were well researched & thought provoking.
Be warned - he doesn’t hold back any punches!
May 16th, 2006 at 5:00 pm
I gather that Viola’s take is a little biased in places. See
http://www.theheresy.com/default.cfm?EK=E75E2574-B0D0-78C0-1FB8F36B1AFF0522&RT=1
May 16th, 2006 at 5:17 pm
The article says more about Bevere …
“On the other hand John Bevere completely ignores every single verse that would challenge his position. When reading his book I was shocked and dismayed at how a best selling author handled the biblical text. It is ironic how much Bevere stresses following God’s authority and then undermines the authority of the biblical text by twisting it.”
See http://www.signposts.org.au/2005/07/19/five-fold-ministry/
May 16th, 2006 at 5:39 pm
Section 4 on “Authority and Submission” from http://www.carm.org/list/bcc.htm , is also along the lines of Bevere’s teaching.
The article gives a warning at the bottom “This group is definitely to be avoided. Along with its erring doctrine that baptism is necessary for salvation, it is legalistic, manipulative, and uses guilt and aberrant doctrines to keep its members in line. Though it is not a cult per se, it has many cult practices. It has destroyed many lives and left many others wary of anything Christian.”
Although the article is about a particular group, this whole ‘controlling, manipulative and legalistic’ nature seems to be why quite a few need to ‘detox’.
May 16th, 2006 at 6:23 pm
Oygle,
I already have read Bevere and had many questions.
I particularly liked this comment quoted from http://www.ferretexper…
“Shame on any pastor who would teach from books over teaching and preaching from The Book. At least preaching from the Bible would hopefully require scripture to support your studies. ”
As this pertains to teaching at the church I am attending.
May 16th, 2006 at 7:37 pm
As this pertains to teaching at the church I am attending.
Me too, ..we are in the same boat, so to speak. I think I would be safer in the water with the sharks, than staying in the boat though.
May 16th, 2006 at 7:52 pm
“As this pertains to teaching at the church I am attending”
It was certainly the teaching at our last church - originally taught by the man himself then carried on enthusiastically by the leadership. Was the last straw for us.
Run Forrest, Run!!
May 16th, 2006 at 8:49 pm
Run Forrest, Run!!
Yes, most appropriate, … and Forest was often bullied wasn’t he, when he was young. He had to break free !!
May 17th, 2006 at 1:35 am
Thank you Oygle for the references. The blog discussions refreshed my memory, provided good perspective and all becomes clear. Thanks to you Grace and Jane too!
Now, Oygle you can be a real pain
Here i am trying to get sleepy and you force me into undignified laughter,
I think I would be safer in the water with the sharks, than staying in the boat though
And Jane, Run Forrest, Run!!
It all comes clear! Yet another control mechanism! And silly me, i did think their misinterpretation of Scripture was inadvertant. HaHaHa … silly me! Too sad to bear is we begin think on how such teaching has robbed so many of their personal reliance upon the Lord Himself for their covering.
Thanks again guys, and yes
Run Forrest Run, lets do!
PS Wife and self enjoyed fellowship with the local Baptists again on Sunday; the message was an accurate exegesis of 1Cor 2 … Wonderfully refreshing! An oasis!
May 17th, 2006 at 6:45 am
In my last church, where I served as the Praise & Worship leader, the whole “spiritual covering” concept was taught and adhered to in full force. A great deal of importance was placed upon the Pastor, as our “spiritual covering,” as well as our denominational affiliation, as our “covering.”
Just before I left (in February 2005), it was revealed that our Pastor, my best friend, had been cheating on her partner for nearly a year.
It tore the church apart. The Pastor was kicked out. Pride, jealously, and power struggles ensued (as well as wife-swapping - - talk about messed up), and by December of 2005, there were only 6 members left in a church that once numbered 100. The sheep were scattered, and left to wander aimlessly and wounded. In those days, grace and mercy were no where to be found, and judgment ruled supreme.
Although I was devastated by the Pastor’s admission of sin, I stood by her until the end, as the rest of the church just wanted to stone her to death. Eventually, we were both forced out of the church.
I have yet to get over this incredibly painful experience. I was betrayed by my best friend, my “spiritual covering” and was then spiritually brutalized by the church and other leaders because I pleaded for the congregation to exercise mercy and grace in the situation.
I’ll never allow another person to act as my “spiritual covering” again. I’ve leared the hard way that this is just not how it’s supposed to be (and I didn’t even have to look it up in the Bible to be sure). God taught me that one through a very painful experience.
By the Way, guys, over the course of the past year or so, I’ve been keeping a journal, trying to work through all my spiritual garbage. I finally published it as a book, detailing my whole, horrible Cult experience. If you’re ever interested, you can find it here:
Trading Ashes For Beauty: The Phoenix’s Journal
http://www.lulu.com/ashesforbeauty
Ron
May 17th, 2006 at 3:50 pm
ashes
very sad story…I mean that sincerely
Usually we only ever hear about male pastors who are controlling and living hypocritically in sin………..in your case it was a woman pastor
As the Bible says “ALL have sinned …..”
Which denomination did you belong to???
May 17th, 2006 at 8:19 pm
In relation to detoxing, By staying too long in a mega church(CULT) and knowing the lies that they were preaching has smashed me for a 6. It was like they stole my soul. In my opinion just run run run if a church has a ceo, mangers and if they use the word Vision. If they go anywhere telling you to get out your wallet and give by credit card, you have a pretty good idea they are not about helping others. Well not unless you count others as the pastors mates. Go and buy a pair of joggers and if you are still brainwashed make sure it is a pair worth well over $250 and gold lined or they just wont let you into heaven without these and run run run.
May 17th, 2006 at 8:33 pm
John, you said: “knowing the lies that they were preaching has smashed me for a 6″
How long have you been “out”? It can take a while to deprogram & work through the grief, shock, initial loneliness & anger. Your strong words would shake some of the lurkers here, but having been where you have been (literally) I fully understand what you are saying.
How long were you on staff? If you don’t want to post too much online, please get my email from Dan as I’m sure that we have probably crossed paths.
May 17th, 2006 at 9:31 pm
For John (Comment #319):
From the Didache (an early Church document)
“If he asks for money, he is a false prophet. And every prophet who speaks in the Spirit you shall neither try nor judge; for every sin shall be forgiven, but this sin shall not be forgiven. But not every one who speaks in the Spirit is a prophet; but only if he holds the ways of the Lord. Therefore from their ways shall the false prophet and the prophet be known. And every prophet who orders a meal in the Spirit does not eat it, unless he is indeed a false prophet. And every prophet who teaches the truth, but does not do what he teaches, is a false prophet. And every prophet, proved true, working unto the mystery of the Church in the world, yet not teaching others to do what he himself does, shall not be judged among you, for with God he has his judgment; for so did also the ancient prophets. But whoever says in the Spirit, Give me money, or something else, you shall not listen to him. But if he tells you to give for others’ sake who are in need, let no one judge him.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html
May 17th, 2006 at 10:00 pm
TABY (aka Trading Ashes For Beauty)
My church was considered non-denominational or interdenominatinal, but was most closely related to AOG. Our denominational affiliation was with a group called Alliance of Christian Churches.
May 20th, 2006 at 1:52 pm
I came across this link today on Church Detox….interesting:
http://www.theofframp.org/Detox.html
May 20th, 2006 at 7:34 pm
A few years ago I left a church I was working at and, before I moved onto another church, I took some time out to have a break or detox or whatever you like to call it - but although I stopped going to the Sunday and midweek meetings, because most of my friends still went there, I was still well abreast of all the latest news and goings on at my former church.
I therefore found when I was with them that I still got upset/angry/needed to defend someone/ needed to not discuss info about someone/etc - much as when I was still attending.
So although technically I had left, I realised I was still a part of the church I no longer attended and emotionally impacted by it, because most of my social world was still wrapped up with the church people. (Hard to maintain external friendships when in church 7 days a week!)
I had to really work hard to establish a bigger social network as part of the detox process which was hard but ultimately rewarding because as time went on I had a bigger group of good friends with more diverse range of beliefs, values and cultures. Some of these were from the new church I attended and some were from other places.
I’m not at the new church any more for other reasons (and no - I am not a church hopper) and would say the experience is the same with those guys - very hard to be polite and enthused when they talk about the great things they are doing at church when you have your own stuff to work through about their leadership - am I right in guessing others detoxing had this experience also?
June 7th, 2006 at 5:16 pm
I have recently gotten a lot out of Robbymac Site
http://www.robbymac.org/
He has a huge resource called Post Charismatic which is facinating and recommended reading. But warning it is a long read.
He also has a page called Detoxing from the church. Here is a sample
Robert C. Girard’s books (Brethren Hang Loose, Brethren Hang Together, When the Vision has Vanished) had a big impact on Wendy & I as young Christians, and Bob’s desire to cut anything out of church programs that got in the way of Spirit-initiated growth and ministry still captures beautifully our heartbeat for ministry. The reason I find Bob such a great resource is that he and his church walked this destructuring road a generation before us - their journey began in the late 60’s and culminated (as a local church) in the mid-80’s, and so he has an interesting perspective on their fourteen year journey that could teach us a lot in the early 21st century.
I spoke to him a few months back on the phone as I was thinking about this whole concept of detox being a normal, healthy part of breaking out of “the system” in order to create something vibrant and new, or reform the existing churches. I started by just asking him whether or not the whole idea that people need to detox out of the system, perhaps by leaving it altogether for a season, was realistic, which he immediately agreed with. But then he added a second, more mind-bending idea to my original premise.
Bob suggests that, at some point in time, “the system” was working for us; while we may be questioning it now, there was a time when we were getting some kind of perks or rewards from it. Bob suggests that until we, as individuals and groups, honestly deal with the areas of our lives that made us enjoy the system at one point - and repent or receive healing in those areas - we will only replicate the same dysfunctional patterns and attitudes in whatever structured or destructured group we ended up joining or creating.
Paul & Tamara Vieira, friends of ours in Winnipeg who are also on the journey, have written on their blog regarding the similarities of this to the Israelites who were following Moses through the wilderness to the Promised Land. Their observation is that the Israelites may have left Egypt, but Egypt had not necessarily left the hearts of the Israelites. As told in Keith Green’s old song “So You Wanna Go Back to Egypt”, the Israelites had brought their old Egyptian attitudes and demands with them.
The Vieira’s also point out the chilling fact that the generation who seemed incapable of getting Egypt out of their system was the one that ended up dying in the wilderness. I think there’s a very real danger that, if those who are in the midst of detox do not deal with their own issues (blaming everything on “McChurch” instead), they will end up “dying in the wilderness” in terms of their original desire for a more vibrant and Spirit-led community.
The task is allowing God to refine our attitudes, desires, and assumptions; the trap is assuming that the log in our own eye doesn’t exist.
I posted this because I thought it was helpful to keep in mind since while we may be in detox we have also been part of what we hope to be leaving behind. Hope you guys get as much out of this as I hopefully have.
June 7th, 2006 at 6:22 pm
Thanks GR, it certainly is good to consider what in ourselves needs repentance or healing (or both) so that we don’t simply swap one dysfunctional scenario for another. Wise words indeed.
June 8th, 2006 at 12:50 pm
In my last church, where I served as the Praise & Worship leader, the whole “spiritual covering” concept was taught and adhered to in full force. A great deal of importance was placed upon the Pastor, as our “spiritual covering,” as well as our denominational affiliation, as our “covering.”
Ron, this “covering” (mis)teaching is rampant and used to control the flock, make people dependant upon the Pastor, also make people fearful of ‘leaving’, and doesn’t allow all the body to express itself as it should. Good to hear though, that those bad expereiences are behind you; I liked your website.
Just about finished Frank Viola’s book on Who is your Covering ?, can highly recommend it for anyone damaged by authoritarian leadership structures.
June 10th, 2006 at 3:28 pm
Came across an interesting discussion board for those detoxing, called Outside The Gate
Also, the Truth For Free site seems to be a good resource for those detoxing, and especially for those who have left the institutional church (building).
An interesting quote of the month from the Truth for Free site ..
“It’s valuable for the body of Christ to find each other and share his life together. Where people are doing that they don’t need commitment. They’ll bend over backwards to be with each other. Where they aren’t doing that, it does little good just to be committed to a meeting. I’m convinced that most Christian meetings give people enough of God’s things to inoculate them against the reality of his presence.” - Dave Coleman (from the book So You Don’t Want To Go To Church Anymore?)
The book Pagan Christianity challenges those who are content with status quo “churchianity”.
June 10th, 2006 at 5:55 pm
“Pagan Christianity” is a great read - I think anyone in any leadership position in a church should have it on their “must read” list - along with “The Subtle power of spiritual abuse,”……oh, and of course, “Beyond Tithing”
Forces you to examine why you do what you do.
June 11th, 2006 at 12:16 am
It is true when you leave a church and try and detox it is very hard because you are still part of it when you have friends there. All they do is talk about it. Living in the Hills district you are under the dark cloud of HS and their clones. It is hard to make a new fresh start but one that regrettably is one that has to be done. I had a phone call from HS to ask me to volunteer for conference last week. Before I could say that I didn’t go there anymore he wanted to know what days he was putting me down for. I tried for some reason to be nice and told him i was no longer on crew. He seemed to be shocked for some reason. It hit me when I hung up the phone how much they use you and when you are no longer involved you are a backslider. I am glad to be getting out of it but it is hard when they send you text messages and thousands of emails, they are advertised everywhere. Am i doomed to the constant barrage of HS or will it cease soon. I am waiting for them to go into the share market so it can crash. I think I will have to move to a 3rd world country to escape.