detoxing from the church
One of our threads has gotten into a conversation about the idea of detoxing from the church and whether Christian community is necessary for following Jesus. This was originally a comment there, but I have elevated it to create its own thread.
As someone who is involved intimately in the mission of an established church, I declare my bias. Somewhere on this site I have mused about the ideas of christians not attending church. I think that the idea of seasons, of needing a break and needing to detox after draining involvements is totally understandable and natural. But I struggle with the idea of a churchless faith as an end point.
As an example, we can say that forgiveness is a universally important thing for Christians and I would have serious troubles with someone arguing that forgiveness is not a necessary element of being a follower of Jesus. However, I can also accept that some people’s path to forgiveness (eg survivors of incest) is so long and complex that it might not be completed within this life time. Perhaps this is not the best analogy but I can understand people in particular circumstances finding that faith communities are just too hard, but I don’t think that you rule make from the experiences of those people in those situations.
I think as humans we need to be in community. I think that particularly in today’s society we have to appreciate in the power of the communal over the individual - in the context of a world where we are taught that each of us is the most important person in the world and that we control our own destinies. I know that churches can be dismal places and people, but they can also be (and often are) wonderful redemptive and inspiring communities.
I think that the gospels were indeed on about the church In John and Matthew particularly we see a whole range of models for the way that people form communities of faith or assist each other along the road. The first thing that Jesus did was to form a community of faith who travelled together with him. He taught us to pray communally to “Our Father”.
Finally, some of the things that people sometimes react to about churches are not in fact essential characteristics of the ecclesia. The idea of formality, demands, structures or even buildings are not essential to the making of a faith community. In fact some of the people commenting here are working pretty hard at reshaping and rethinking what it means to be church in Australian society these days.
Anyway, just some general thoughts and again not being at all critical of those who comment here that they are or have been on a break from institutional church. Just teasing at some of the edges of where those “breaks” creep towards more generalised statements.
June 11th, 2006 at 1:26 am
Oh John, it’s hard enough when one leaves a small church, without the power of marketing that HS has. I can imagine it’s hard to heal in those circumstances. How long is it since you decided to leave HS?
Not sure if you’re up for it, but joining a new church (if you are able to) can be a welcome distraction. Not sure how it is now, but Castle Hill Church of Christ used to have pretty decent leadership.
June 11th, 2006 at 3:24 am
“I think I will have to move to a 3rd world country to escape.”
Tell Hillsong you’re gay and you’ll be guaranteed never to hear from them again.
Or tell them your last name is ‘Bullock’.
June 11th, 2006 at 8:13 am
“I think I will have to move to a 3rd world country to escape.”
you could join us here in NZ :-0
Mind you, we’ve got our own boys club here, Brian Tamaki, (www.destinychurch.org.nz) Paul de Jong (www.clca.org.nz) & Peter Mortlock (www.cityimpactchurch.com ).
June 11th, 2006 at 8:58 am
John, it is crappy that you feel like packing up and leaving your home area to escape HS. I know what you are saying - have felt like doing the same myself.
But I would ask you this: If you left now, would you end up feeling down the track that they forced you out of an area you like to live? Even if it feels like it, they DONT own the area and there are plenty of people in the area and beyond who don’t give a toss about them or what they do. Not discounting those that just think they’re wankers.
I realise it is a recent departure for you if they are still calling you and thinking you are involved but as time goes on you will rebuild without HS and have a better life without having their lifestyle and obligations doing your head in.
When I felt at my worst and hounded or haunted by them, I would tell myself “It’s not always going to feel this bad”. That’s about all I could say to you right now. It’s overwhelming at times and is still challenging but you do begin to own your life again based on your own choices.
I refuse to be their victim.
You made a courageous but challenging choice. Think about this - you left because you refused to go along with their influence any more - so you won. They don’t own you or any part of your thinking now.
June 11th, 2006 at 10:59 am
John,
As an ex-Illsonger myself, i also have had the problem of trying to escape their grip. They are relentless! My “think the best of people” side says that they keep contacting you because you are still on lists etc and haven’t made your way off them yet. You know how huge the place is and home many lists and data bases there are! If you are serious, contact George or one of his plebs and tell them that you want to be deleted from the “Churchworx database” or you will start proceedings for breach of the privacy legislation.
Re escaping the marketing arms…atleast i don’t live in the “Hills” area…God knows why anyone would want to….
Atleast i don’t have to drive passed the place or their billboards on the M2. You can move to the good old anglo saxon/celtic Sutherland Shire….I live 100m from the beach just south of where the Wanda Beach murders happened in the 60’s and just north of the December 2005 “Riots” at Cronulla. The beach is so peaceful now no one ever comes anymore. And there are no pesky police around….;)
The one thing that i seriously find difficult to escape is all the “Worship” music. Any new church you walk into will odds on play the crappy amatuer songs Illsong keep churning out year after year. I am not going anywhere because of it now. I am thinking that i will have to turn up half an hour late to every service if I get serious about being in a church again.
Best of luck and God Bless John on your adventure.
My advice, for what it’s worth, just be the man God has called you to be! Get satisfaction and fulillment from serving God in the everyday…that’s what true worship is. Be a great friend, dad, brother, son, worker! You don’t need Illsong! Just love God and Love life! Enjoy nature! Oops, sorry I forgot you live in the Hills….Well go to the beach or something….You get the picture!
June 11th, 2006 at 12:15 pm
Hi Guys,
I have never really been a member of Hillsong but I am still on their lists and get the odd followup call. They like to use the kids “We haven’t seen ….. here for a while and were just wondering how you are going.?” And i still get their regular sms’s ’cause I keep forgetting to remove myself from their list. Actually their sms’s give me reason to laugh and shake my head at the ridiculousness of it all. The last one was on weds this past week don’t miss tonights mega prayer meeting at hills 7.30pm. We need your faith there. Love. Brian H
No doubt a prayer meeting for the faithful to pray(and give) towards end of year miracle offering.
The other wonderful side of things is that I teach environmental ed. in both the Hills and Blacktown area and occaisionally will mention Hillsong in conversation and it seems amazing how so many people have never heard of them when they make out they are a church of influence - what influence when so many people in the local area have little or no idea what they are or what they do.
So my recommendation join a “different club” sports, recreational anything even in the Hills. You might come across some Hillsongers but in general you’ll find a lot of people who could not care less and you’ll just be able to talk to the people you meet through you life not just christian coloured glasses.
NB Note to self take one’s own advice.
June 11th, 2006 at 12:23 pm
Great call Grace!
Also John…have you ever noticed how many Toyota’s you see when you just buy/sell one?
June 29th, 2006 at 2:52 pm
I must admit that after all these months, I am clearly not finished with my detox from “the church.”
Last night while cooking on the grill outside my house, I was approached by two men. They sneaked up behind me, while my back was turned to the grill, and attempted to leave me a Christian tract entitled “Heaven.” It was undoubtably one of those 5 steps to Jesus booklets.
They didn’t attempt to introduce themselves or get to know me. They just appeared to have an agenda and a quota to meet. I immediately turned on them and told them in no uncertain terms to put that thing back in their pocket and to get the hell away from me. The one trying to leave behind the tract asked, “can I ask, do you go to church?” I replied, “I used to. Now get the hell out of here.”
I don’t know if they were Jehovah’s Witnesses, Baptists, or just a couple of clueless evangelist-want-to-be’s from the mega church down the road. It didn’t matter. They weren’t concerned with me or my heart or getting to know me. They were just doing what they were programed to do…..so far from the heart and intention of God and Christ. When will the church ever figure this thing out?! People like this come across like used car salesmen, insurance salesmen or vacuum cleaner salesmen.
I feel terrible about the way I reacted to these clueless brothers, yet I don’t understand why they don’t know better and act accordingly. The “church” has so much potential to be a force of good in the world, but seems to continually Fu@k everything up. I wish I could pinpoint the origin of the problem, because it is obvious that a problem continues to exist.
Ron Viers
USA
December 14th, 2006 at 9:29 pm
#332…..I am not so sure you wont hera from them again if you say your gay…….depends on if you can be …grooomed…to take on the role…………..maybe
January 10th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
Church… but not as we’ve known it!
Over at the ‘Unveiling’ website I found the following article; written by Lynette Woods, to be very instructive in relation to the nature of the ‘Institutional church’. Lynette cites the many similarities between the contemporary western Church as an Institution, and the Institution of ‘School’ and then highlights many interesting parallels. I have included the entire article here for convenience but would recommend a visit to this site for other very useful articles.
“Although we did not know it when God called us out of the institutional church; many worldwide and in previous generations, have heard God call them out of the doing and busyness of “church life” in order to find Him as their Life. Since leaving the institution of the church, I’ve been becoming increasingly aware of the many parallels between the institution of school and the institution of the church. Most people don’t even think about questioning the fact that their children must attend school just as most believers naturally assume without question that they are to attend the institution of the church (as opposed to understanding that we are part of Christ’s Body the Church regardless of where we are).
School is compulsory in most western cultures, so too, the unwritten law of organized religion is that regular attendance is compulsory. You discover this if you don’t go for a few weeks! We tend to think that attending school assures us of an education for our children and so we place our security and trust in the school system. Attending an institutional church regularly is also a form of security and trust in a religious system but of course attending a church building is no guarantee of salvation or of a close walk with God just as attending school does not guarantee you a good education.
Our security and trust must never be in any religious or denominational system, man, programme or method but only in God; to rely on anything else is idolatry. Idolatry is not simply the worshiping of idols in primitive cultures but is alive and well in our culture today. Idols are not primarily physical, but spiritual. Idolatry is anything that we depend on, rely on or have our trust and security in: “Little children, keep yourselves from idols (false gods) - from anything and everything that would occupy the place in your heart due to God, from any sort of substitute for Him that would take first place in your life.” 1 John 5:21.
School is predictable and becomes increasingly boring the more we mature. We know when it will begin and end, when the breaks are, we know what subject will happen when and who will teach it. The institution of the church is often no different, it too can be predictable; it meets every Sunday morning, begins at the same time every week with singing, then a sermon is given, then a final song is sung or people are called forward to be prayed for (depending on the particular denomination) and this doesn’t differ much from Sunday to Sunday. Outside of school, learning is free to happen any time and as such, is unpredictable and exciting! So too, out of the religious system, we learn from the Holy Spirit any time of the day and night and our walk with Him is exciting, not predictable or boring!
Just as no parent would allow their children to quit school simply to become couch potatoes, so our Father does not call His children out of the institutional church system simply to sit at home to vegetate. What school leavers and church leavers MUST do is to take personal responsibility for their own learning and growth instead of relying on a system or institution! Jesus died and rose again so that we could each have a personal, daily relationship with Him and not so that we would rely on a pastor or “meetings”.
We are called to liberty and freedom from the man-made laws and traditions which Christ died to free us from! We must each have (and give each other!) the freedom to hear, listen and obey God for ourselves. We are each responsible for our own decisions and actions and if He has not told us to leave the institutional church system; we need not feel condemned for staying. Conversely we must not condemn those who HAVE heard Him call them out and who have obeyed Him, often at great personal cost to them and their families.
Many teachers enter the teaching profession with high ideals of what they will and won’t do, but end up disillusioned. They find themselves doing the things they never wanted to, simply because they find they have to, due to the structure and system of the institution. This corresponds with the institutional church. Many pastors enter the ministry with high ideals but find themselves doing and saying things they never intended to simply because of the hierarchical structures and systems that are in place within the institution. They find they “have” to be controlling and authoritative simply because of the hierarchical system; if they are not, they feel they will lose respect and trust.
In school, children often feel intimidated by the system and by the teachers. This often results in children lacking in self confidence. So too in the institutional church, the people often feel intimidated by the “professionals” and little or nothing is done to alleviate this. Unfortunately it is often encouraged because it is not seen for what it is; fear and control. Of course anyone who feels intimidated, is under the control of the person they feel intimidated by. The Intimidator will possibly interpret this as trust and respect instead of recognizing it for what it is: manipulation and control. Instead of being encouraged to think for themselves, the “students” rely on what the pastor/teacher says, even if what they teach is wrong!
Someone who feels intimidated by their teacher or pastor is not going to upset the status quo by questioning the system or by setting things straight because they are influenced by fear. However, should they happen to have the courage to question an Intimidator, they will usually discover that they will be accused of a number of things including being insubordinate, rebellious, argumentative, divisive and unsubmissive, instead of building up a person’s confidence and encouraging them to think for themselves and check things out as the Bereans did (Acts 17:11). The intimidated person then has two choices, either to apologize and become further ensconced in a system of control and manipulation, or to come out from the intimidation into freedom, not without some degree of persecution and abuse for being viewed as being the things they are accused of! God’s people always have been, and still are, considered rebellious to this world’s system of religion and control (see Ezra 4:12-15) because they are of their Father of Light in whom darkness has no place.
Just as in school the teacher is the one who supposedly knows it all and so can teach the ones who don’t, so in the institutional church the pastor is seen as the one who in turn teaches those who don’t know much. This not only encourages an “us and them” mentality but also encourages people to rely on the pastor instead of on the Holy Spirit for teaching and feeding – hence it equals idolatry. In this Family, our Father is our Teacher and is responsible for our learning.
With immature or new believers, He will use older brothers and sisters, the Church is like a family and a family is a living, growing, changing thing unlike an institution or organization. Instead of everyone being reliant on the structure or relying on the pastor, we become reliant on the Holy Spirit and Jesus (the Bread of Life and Living Water) for our food. We have often put pastors into positions they are not called to be in. They then try to fulfil the expectations of the people instead of obeying and fulfilling the expectations of God. Jesus’ pattern for ministers (which EACH of us are) was for us to be humble servants of one another.
Once a child can do the basics of reading and writing and spelling, there is no limit to what they can teach themselves and learn - they simply have to have the DESIRE to learn! There is a vast world of information for our children to learn from as they grow older. It is the same in organized religion; never has there been such a huge range and amount of Christian resources available; Bibles, study materials, books, magazines, CD’s, tapes, videos, conferences, software, websites etc ad infinitum.
There is absolutely NO excuse for a Christian today not to be mature were it conditional upon resources; except One Thing may be missing and this One Thing is essential because it is First and Foundational. God builds His Church upon one Foundation only: Christ in our lives. He alone can put DESIRE and PASSION in our heart. In school it doesn’t matter how many textbooks, computers, resources and teachers you have access to, if you don’t have the desire to learn, you won’t learn much. In the institution of church it is not the pastor or resources that are important, but a personal, intimate relationship with the Holy Spirit who teaches us ALL things (1 John 2:27, John 16:13).
When Jesus Christ is the passion and desire of our heart, we naturally want to learn all we can about Him and from Him and to spend as much time with Him as possible! One common criticism of home schoolers is that the children are being protected from the “real world”. But is school the real world? Surely the day to day living of supermarket shopping, paying bills, writing letters, work around the house, visiting people etc is far more the real world than being shut away in a classroom with children all your own age.
No where else does this happen in our society, especially not when you leave school! In the institutional church we too often think that we are relevant and living in the real world when we are not. We are living in an insulated bubble of meetings and “service” or “ministry” away from where the real world can touch and relate to us. When they see that God is absolutely vital to our lives every day and that meetings are not our focus but Christ is, then they will be drawn to Him through His Life in us. They must be attracted to and joined to Jesus Christ, not to a religious system!
We need to BE Christ to people every day, everywhere we meet, we are His Body, He wants to speak and touch people through us. But how can we do this if we stay in our “classroom” with our peer group of fellow believers? Does this prepare us for reaching the world or does it just encourage us to stay within that comfortable system? Being relevant does not mean changing your music to have a better beat or inviting unbelievers to a concert or becoming more like the world. Churchianity today can actually be a stumbling block to people coming to know Jesus Christ personally because He is not revealed in the individual’s lives. What is REAL life? It is He Who IS Life! Christ was radical and brought about revolution and change! He challenged and made enemies in the religious system of the day.
A common criticism of home schooling is that the children will not have adequate social interaction; so too a concern about being out of the system of churchianity is that we are not “fellowshipping” with other believers. Clearly, because we are part of a Body and a Family we will meet and talk with brothers and sisters whenever possible - sharing what God has been saying and doing in each other’s lives (instead of just listening to one or two people share from a stage), and sharing communion (eating meals together and remembering what Christ has done for us). Believers will always find other believers to share Life with (and it’s far better to let the Holy Spirit do the choosing of those friendships than us) just as children will always find other children to play with. The Holy Spirit knows those who will help us and those who will hinder us and we must be sensitive to His leading in relationships.
Our whole understanding of what the Church is needs to change; it is not, and never has been, a building where people meet together or a place to go on Sundays. Jesus said that where two or three are gathered together, He is there! We need to recognize and see Christ in our casual meeting together with each other, not concentrating on and venerating the “official” or formal meetings. We must never fall into the trap of worshiping gatherings or leaders instead of Christ. We need to see a return to real, honest, relevant, Christ centred relationships.
Christ ought to be Everything to us, He should be our Focus, our Ground and Foundation and our Unity regardless of whether we attend a building called a church or not! Too often the uniting factor is not whether we are in Christ but whether we are in a church building or part of a recognised institution / organization which reveals that the building / institution / organization is more important to those ones than Christ. That, again, is idolatry: putting something in place of Christ. May we be given sight to see Christ, and only Christ, as our Unity and our All”!
Jack-of-it
January 10th, 2007 at 3:01 pm
Excellent post Jack of It
January 12th, 2007 at 8:43 am
Yep, read this one a few years back. Very good - there are many similar writers out there too.
Many homeschoolers, having once questioned one institution, often go on to question the other. For us, we started with church, & have gone on to homeschool - something we always disregarded (aong with those backsliders who don’t tithe) - in our “system” days.
January 12th, 2007 at 7:38 pm
A bit of an aside, but my sister would like to see some research done on long term outcomes for homeschooled children in adulthood… the ones she’s met seem to have difficulty in adjusting to society… lacklustre jobs, married much older people, some difficulty relating to people of their own age.
But my sister doesn’t offer a big enough sample size to judge… I know homeschooled children tend to be ahead on literacy and numeracy because of the extra individualised attention.
My sister’s observation may be due to the fact some of the homeschooling brigade are a bit eccentric, if not fundamentalist in the extreme (I know this isn’t true of you Jane, so please don’t take offence… I have nothing but admiration for those who give this a go really!)
January 12th, 2007 at 9:57 pm
“My sister’s observation may be due to the fact some of the homeschooling brigade are a bit eccentric, if not fundamentalist in the extreme”
Yes, I would agree with you there & have stayed away from that particular crowd - just as I stayed away from the ones who ran every committee, every function & every event & made their lives revolve soley around my kids’ former schools (this is not knocking the general wonderful parents who attended the school camps etc).
Most of the homeschoolers I’ve encountered here in NZ though, are incredibly diligent & hardworking - the parents & the kids. As an ex-highschool teacher myself, going this route the past 2 years has been totally the opposite to what I ever thought I would do. I did months of research before deciding it was the right choice for my kids -the same process of “unlearning” that we went through in leaving the church system.
Mind you, lets be real here & say that there’s a whole lot of school graduates out there that also “have difficulty in adjusting to society… lacklustre jobs, married much older people, some difficulty relating to people of their own age.” How about this for a touch of “truthiness” as put forward by Lance?…….”most inmates in our prison systems are graduates of the school system & not homeschoolers.”
Often, it’s simply a case of personal perspective
cheers Janet!
Jane
A
January 12th, 2007 at 10:19 pm
For Janet…
hi again, found this page of links that your sister might like to read through if she’s interested in looking into the subject a little more. Obviously they’re the “shiny star examples” but still interesting reading, especially if you’ve never considered education “outside the box” before: http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/weblinks/Famous.htm
Have a good evening!
J
January 12th, 2007 at 11:42 pm
Jane - since you are a former school teacher, do you find that this makes you a better homeschool teacher?
January 13th, 2007 at 6:12 am
Hi Kevin, being a former teacher probably gives me more understanding of what is required generally, however to be honest, 99% of the parents I have seen in action would be right up there with the best teachers I know- if not better.
Afterall, when the buck stops with you in regards to your child’s education, you tend to take it pretty seriously.
January 13th, 2007 at 7:12 am
I think Jane, that having a college education is going to make anyone a better homeschool teacher, moreso than being a parent. I have a lot of homeschoolers in my church, and I have noticed that the parents with some college seem to have farther advanced ones than those with just high school or less. Indiana is very HS friendly so we get a good view of it.
Overall, I see the HS kids as being behind the public school kids, in math science and social skills. But the parents with college, especially those with teaching degree’s kids seem to be farther than the Public school kids. Of course, Kids in the public schools, whose parents are teachers tend to be farther along than their peers also. (HS means Home School not Hillsong) {that would be H$}
January 13th, 2007 at 8:14 am
You could be right Kevin - I don’t know enough from either camp to make any type of value judgement.
It may simply be a case of higher expectations though -like you said, those in ps with parents with tertiary ed were different too - parental involvement in education is always going to be of critical importance.
January 13th, 2007 at 8:18 am
We home schooled our children until we got to Australia. We did so for a few reasons:
We felt it was irresponsible to give them to strangers for the majority of their time to be raised and educated
We had some concerns about the safety of the schools as we tended to live in bad neighborhoods
We did not agree with the methods of education that were standard in the school system in America “see and say at the expense of phonics ect.”
And most of all, because we felt it was our responsibility not the states.
We have never wanted to segregate our children, nor shelter them. They spent plenty of time with “normal” people. They did sports and activities with kids their own age, and learned arts from real artists working in our neighborhood. They did spend most of their time with adults, but this never affected their peer relationships, they learned to relate very well to both adults and peers.
When we got to Australia we were around the time we had already decided to put the girls into the public school system, so we started them when we arrived. They have performed very well, with almost straight A’s since the first quarter. They are consitantly praised by the teachers for being very good students, as well as helpful and secure in themselves. They both have very strong networks of friends my oldest being one of if not they most popular girl in school. They are very mature, stable, and bright young ladies.
I will say that my wife was not a college graduate, nor am I. We purchased very good curriculum and on occasion learned the subject as we were teaching the girls (particularly with certain parts of history, or science) and were able to have “experts” come in and supplement this teaching many times. We made many sacrifices to do this, and we are both extremely thankful for the experience and the results. We were part of a private homeschool network that provided strong accountability and help when needed.
We would most likely do the same again.
rev
January 13th, 2007 at 8:23 am
In regards to being long-term ‘churchless’, a concern shared by the author of the original post: I am concerned about the spiritual condition of the long-term ‘churched’ as well, although I agree it is not a ‘this-or-that’ issue. I have good fellowship with saints from both camps, which brings me to my point: I have seen many institutional churches that practice little or no real fellowship; and I also see a command to fellowship with one another as well as a real danger to becoming permanently disconnected from fellowship. The key word here is ‘fellowship’, i.e. what is biblical fellowship, specifically, and the over-arching need of all saints to have the same care one for another: a fact which cannot happen in isolation. I am all for developing authentic, biblical relationships with other saints. While I see some of this in institutional churches, the leaven of false doctrines (misunderstandings promulgated about who elders are, how they are recognized, and how they function/what is spiritual order within the assembly and so forth) tends to undermine any real sense of community in my opinion. Worse, the whole thing can become a personality cult or club run by the ‘influential people’ (and therefore an idol), precisely because we have become acculturated to traditionally affirm unscriptural practices. So, the more we live as a family and not an organization, the better, from where I stand.
January 13th, 2007 at 8:28 am
I guess I should have included: favortism (and/or elevating certain saints to a special position or class) seems to be the means by which a spiritual assembly is corrupted and perverted into an unhealthy, carnal gathering.
January 13th, 2007 at 8:30 am
amen bro, the churches I have been a part of for the last fifteen years have focussed on relationship, not systems, or structures. They are often messy, but wonderful.
rev
January 13th, 2007 at 9:16 am
Thanks for the link Jane. I’d be more interested in a sense in studies that take in a large sample size… I’m not sure how much you can judge from 10 selected people.
A teaching friend and I did look into homeschooling and rejected it for almost opposite reasons… I decided I was too plain disorganised, and she is such a perfectionist she thought it would drive her and her children nutty!
I do see it has benefits however.
January 14th, 2007 at 2:16 am
A former Saddleback pastor writes…
http://www.stupidchurchpeople.com/2007/01/for-you-wherever-you-are.html
” I dedicate this post to the person that acted like an ass the other day towards someone I love and care for deeply. You will never know the hurt and pain your careless attitude and insensitivity caused. It’s just another strike against ignorant-ass Christians like yourself.
You are a stupid, stupid person. Actually more than stupid, you are a small and shallow person. I found myself making excuses for you, trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but it just isn’t possible to do so any longer. I have no idea why I defend people in the ministry anymore… nothing should surprise me, but yet people like you continue to amaze me.
I was there and watched you. You were smug, cold, insensitive, and rude. You had an opportunity to build a bridge to my friend, yet all you did was carry a burning torch and set it on fire.
There was a time when I missed people like you in my life. I keep thinking back to a time when the likes of you were my closest friends, people I shared my life with daily. But after watching you in action, seeing your thoughtless and callous reaction to this person who has done nothing to be treated like an alien by you, I am so glad to not be associated with the church or pastors anymore.
I know, lots of people will say that I shouldn’t indict all Christians or church people with this broad brush I am using… but I cannot help it. I think the Christian church of America creates a sub-culture that is so full of veiled intolerance for anyone that doesn’t conform to their own image… that I just can’t stand it anymore. Your ignorance will be your personal undoing. It certainly is the church’s “Achilles Heel”.
Your willful and malicious treatment of those who once were “in the fold” but for whatever reason now are not… that is the great “dirty little secret” of the church. What is sad isn’t how you reject people like my friend (or me for that matter)… what’s really sad is how you percieve the moral high ground you are on to be the path to righteousness.
Some will say that I am no better for writing these things about you but I beg to differ. I am being open and honest about my disdain for people like you rather than hiding it behind a fake smile and lifeless hug as you do.
If what you showed my friend the other day was Christian love then we are all fucked.”
January 14th, 2007 at 7:11 am
Great post Lance.
January 14th, 2007 at 9:47 am
Loved it Lance… I fantasized sending it to someone as I read it. It pretty much summed up what I would like to say to a lot of the pastors I know.
January 14th, 2007 at 10:20 am
Just say it to them.
I still get a chuckle that I told Phil Baker as I passed him coming out of a lift at work that he was ‘the evil that walked the streets’.
The more that people used up and spat out by these pastors just take the knocks on the chin, the more these pastors think they can get away with anything.
Anybody else noticed the shift in tone towards Sheikh Taj El Din Al Hilaly this week?
Politicians have given up trying to be polite so as not to piss off Muslims and with Amanda Vanstone leading the way.. the message to the Sheikh has been ’sport..if you don’t like it here in Australia…don’t come back…’
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/message-to-sheikh-dont-like-it-dont-come-back/2007/01/12/1168105181163.html
You can’t give religious leaders a blank cheque where they can do and say what they want, because some of them are arrogant enough to write any old number on that blank cheque.
January 14th, 2007 at 10:46 am
“Pat Robertson may be the founder of the once-powerful Christian Coalition. He may attract nearly a million viewers a day to his “700 Club” television show. But when he claims to make divine prophecies — as he did, again, last week — many evangelicals say he undermines the credibility of their beliefs.
In the past, Robertson has called for the assassination of a political leader and predicted tsunamis, but last week, he said God spoke to him and revealed that a massive terrorist strike would happen in the United States in late 2007.
“It’s downright embarrassing,” said Todd Spitzer, pastor at Regeneration in Oakland and Dolores Park Church in San Francisco. “When he makes these statements and ties God’s name to it, he’s like the self-proclaimed spokesman for God and evangelical Christianity. It’s an obstacle to us when we want to present a reasonable faith.”
The more outrageous or quirky the comment, the quicker it zips into newspapers and television news programs and floods the Web. The result, evangelical ministers say, is that sincere believers get tarnished in the process.
The Bay Area, despite perceptions to the contrary, has dozens of evangelical churches, including many of the region’s largest. Evangelical ministers said they are constantly battling stereotypes of evangelicals as uncritical thinkers who are “marching lockstep to some leader.” They said Robertson’s comments only strengthen those misperceptions.
“The Christian faith is not a blind faith,” said Gary Lee, pastor of the Berkeley Mosaic church. “It’s an intellectual faith.
“Because he’s on ‘The 700 Club,’ because he hits the radio and television more than most, he grabs a different level of attention. It broad-brushes all of evangelicalism.”
Evangelicals cut across a variety of Protestant denominations, in the Bay Area and nationally. They believe in a literal reading of the Bible as the word of God, and all but a few give room for figurative speech and metaphor. They believe that Jesus is the son of God, and that believing in him and his teachings is the only path to eternal salvation. They actively share their faith with others.
Several Bay Area evangelical ministers said Robertson’s purported divine prophecies are heretical because the statements presume that he can add to the inerrant word of God, as written in the Bible.
“He’s going beyond the authority of Scripture,” said Lee. “He’s walking out on his own plank.”
Robertson was not giving any interviews, a spokesperson said Friday.
Robertson’s controversial rhetoric over the past few years contrasts with his historical significance to Christian conservatives. The son of a U.S. senator, Robertson ran for president in 1988. Though unsuccessful, he was able to draw in a wide network of supporters and donors, said Mark Rozell, a professor of public policy at George Mason University in Fairfax, Va. Robertson kept those networks alive after the election, taking the mass mailing list and creating what would become the roots of the Christian Coalition.
Robertson chose Ralph Reed to be the public face of the Christian Coalition.
“It was a real genius political move,” said Rozell, who has followed Robertson’s career for more than three decades. “Robertson is just too toxic. … Ralph Reed put a very benign face to the political movement.”
The organization published tens of millions of voter guides, which were distributed in churches around the nation. It held seminars to teach people how to become delegates to state and national conventions. Though the coalition’s influence has severely waned in recent years, it was once a force in educating and politically mobilizing Christian conservatives.
Robertson’s clout has faded as well, not least because of his comments.
“Everyone wants to get away from the characterization in the mainstream culture that evangelicals believe some pretty loony things,” Rozell said.
“There’s this real sense that the Christian Coalition mainstreamed the religious right,” he said. “But a lot of people feel that Pat Robertson has reinforced negative stereotypes that evangelical Christians have worked hard to eliminate.”
Galen Call, pastor of Los Gatos Christian Church, remembers the level of importance reached by the Christian Coalition.
At churches in the Midwest where Call ministered, the Christian Coalition’s voter guides and seminars were helpful to many believers. But those days are long past, Call said.
Now, he said, Robertson’s comments hinder outsiders’ understanding of evangelicals.
“All sides of the cultural war enjoy pointing to the margins of other movements to try to discredit them,” Call said. “That’s unfortunate, because it hinders genuine dialogue and understanding.”
Nevertheless, Call said there are still times when Robertson’s presence is felt in his church — usually on a Sunday morning when someone asks incredulously, “Did you hear what Pat Robertson said this week?”
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/01/07/MNGA7NEDPU1.DTL
May 2nd, 2007 at 6:01 pm
I wasn’t sure which thread to put this message into, but I think this is the most relevant…..
I want to say “thank-you” to everyone at Signposts. I have been through an immensely difficult time over the last year or more, having been sacked from a pastoral role over disagreement in the church which I founded, and going through all the emotions and upheaval that something like this presents. Ironically, it was just before all this happened that I started reading and contributing at Signposts.
During that time, Signposts has been a huge part of my healing and growth. I have greatly appreciated the many people who have commented, debated, and just been candidly honest about so many issues. It has helped to shape some of my thinking, and been a place to feel validated.
Thank-you to Phil and Dan for your courage in hosting a site like this too.
I have reached a point where I feel I am ready to move on and am pursuing a new career in life coaching. Something inside of me has turned a corner, and I have new life, hope, energy and joy.
I wondered whether I should write a “good-bye” message to Signposts, because I know that while I hope to still visit from time to time, I will not be keeping up to date with things on this site like I have been, and consequently will probably not be commenting except for the occasional visit.
So once again, thank-you to everyone. You guys ROCK! I have appreciated so many of you, and I think you guys and this site are changing mindsets.
Keep going and staying true to who you are!
All the best,
Wayne