detoxing from the church
One of our threads has gotten into a conversation about the idea of detoxing from the church and whether Christian community is necessary for following Jesus. This was originally a comment there, but I have elevated it to create its own thread.
As someone who is involved intimately in the mission of an established church, I declare my bias. Somewhere on this site I have mused about the ideas of christians not attending church. I think that the idea of seasons, of needing a break and needing to detox after draining involvements is totally understandable and natural. But I struggle with the idea of a churchless faith as an end point.
As an example, we can say that forgiveness is a universally important thing for Christians and I would have serious troubles with someone arguing that forgiveness is not a necessary element of being a follower of Jesus. However, I can also accept that some people’s path to forgiveness (eg survivors of incest) is so long and complex that it might not be completed within this life time. Perhaps this is not the best analogy but I can understand people in particular circumstances finding that faith communities are just too hard, but I don’t think that you rule make from the experiences of those people in those situations.
I think as humans we need to be in community. I think that particularly in today’s society we have to appreciate in the power of the communal over the individual - in the context of a world where we are taught that each of us is the most important person in the world and that we control our own destinies. I know that churches can be dismal places and people, but they can also be (and often are) wonderful redemptive and inspiring communities.
I think that the gospels were indeed on about the church In John and Matthew particularly we see a whole range of models for the way that people form communities of faith or assist each other along the road. The first thing that Jesus did was to form a community of faith who travelled together with him. He taught us to pray communally to “Our Father”.
Finally, some of the things that people sometimes react to about churches are not in fact essential characteristics of the ecclesia. The idea of formality, demands, structures or even buildings are not essential to the making of a faith community. In fact some of the people commenting here are working pretty hard at reshaping and rethinking what it means to be church in Australian society these days.
Anyway, just some general thoughts and again not being at all critical of those who comment here that they are or have been on a break from institutional church. Just teasing at some of the edges of where those “breaks” creep towards more generalised statements.
May 5th, 2006 at 6:52 am
Hi UMonk, church of the dispossessed it is then!
May 5th, 2006 at 9:07 am
no james, not desirous of being harsh. It is just that we must turn our disapointment into the real thing, otherwise we become casualties of the systems. Wouldn’t want to let the enemy win. Been through it all myself, only it took me twice getting burned in church and once gettting frustrated to make me realise that just seeing the bad did not make it good.
the big problem we face is if we do not offer the real we become part of the problem.
Dan would you send James my e-mail address.
Love to all, The nut
May 5th, 2006 at 9:35 am
Nut, as always, we will seek to hold fast anything of value, but im just not interested in pursuing this at this time.
May 5th, 2006 at 9:38 am
Isnt it up to God to “search for his sheep and look after them?”
Isnt it up to the divine Physician to tend to the injured?
I dont think it is up to us to “Become part of the solution” We only become part of the solution, “Reconciliation” as we are healed by Grace ourselves. And I am not sure that this healing will take away our wounds. We will now walk with a permanant limp… As you say nut, God words to us can be very very quiet. if we are so busy trying to white knuckle our way to the solution, we may not hear the still small voice of the Sheperd.
May 5th, 2006 at 9:51 am
Nut:
We already are casualties of the system! that is why we are here talking the way we do, coz no where else is safe to do so. The internet is the catacombs of the 21st Century.Casualties are not in a position to begin fighting again.. That is why they are called casualties, friend… Ever heard the term, collateral damage? Friendly fire?
May 5th, 2006 at 9:58 am
I am a casualty - which story do you want. I’ve been singled out from pulpits in front of 1000’s. i just refused to be a casulaty. What do you mean no where is safe? what are you afraid of? Never been a casulaty of friendly fire - been a casulty of fire though, just wasn’t friendly.
May 5th, 2006 at 10:00 am
U monk - they can only kill you once. After your dead you don’t care anymore what they do. You care what you do.
May 5th, 2006 at 10:27 am
I really dont want to argue with you about this..
Casualties do not make choices - because they have been injured - by others.
Causalities do not Choose to be caualties - capeesh?
perhaps your just trying to cover over your wounds, Nut? Jesus never did that, he bore his wounds, even after conquering death
Next youll prbably say that we need to chose to beleive Gods word inspite of our circumstances… that our depression andf whining is from a devilish spirit.
Whats the remedy nut? Something AWSOME! i bet
May 5th, 2006 at 10:41 am
UMonk, #65 speaks for many of us.
Nut, you dont sound like a casualty to me; more like a card carrying member … maybe you changed “chapters”. I apologise for responding in kind Nut, but … as you “refused to be a casualty” … that may explain why you refuse to express empathy for those that have become casualties!
Mind you (resisting the urge to address you as, “oh superior one”), I wonder what battle you were fighting?
May 5th, 2006 at 10:48 am
AWESOME UMonk, you are the master of the pithy, “Whats the remedy nut? Something AWSOME! i bet”
May 5th, 2006 at 11:03 am
thank you for your AWSOME feedback brother Jim
May 5th, 2006 at 11:09 am
Nut says:” I am a casualty… I just refuse to be one.”
What the??
How can a casualty refuse to be one? Unless your one of those annoying patients that insistis on getting up in their hospital gown with their arse showing, (pimples and all) and marching around the ward… like a paiin in the neck telling everbody who stays in their beds to styop their blubbering and become “part of the solution” by refusing to be a patient…
May 5th, 2006 at 11:11 am
Good one nut..
May 5th, 2006 at 11:11 am
I have just spent some time, albeit wasted, listening to the gripes and cries coming from what is written here. You all profess to be ‘christians’ and ‘lovers of God’, however, as i understand it, when you give your life to Jesus it no longer belongs to you. I have been preaching for a while now and i am sick of having to docter the pure message to pander to the feelings of over sensitive ‘christians’ who feel ‘controlled’ when told what is expected of them from God.
From what i have read you guys are the ones who are wrecking the image of God and the church in our communities with your constant whinging. I find it no surprise that you find comfort out side the church beacause as servants you would be pretty ordinary with those attitudes.
I would love to see the church moving as an army as it was intended, but the problem is that people don’t know how to be soldiers. I served in the australian army as an infantry soldier and i understand that there has to be leaders, not all of them are good, but i tell you this, having to serve the bad leaders made me a better soldier than just serving the good ones.
Of course you are not going to agree with everything that leaders will say but YOU chose to be a Christian, YOU chose to give your life to service and i guarantee that all of you have prayed, “oh God use me!”. But then when someone comes to you and says “we need you to do this”, all we hear is, “oh but thats not my calling” or “i’m too busy”. Me, my and mine. That is all i am reading in these messages.
I am sorry that you are feeling hurt, but you gotta get over it and remeber that you signed on for something bigger than yourself. The real losers out of all this are people who don’t know hte one true God, and with so many options around, all you are presenting is false christianity by your inability to die to yourself and serve where you were planted, just what you asked for when you gace your life to Jesus (whether you realise this or not).
And, for the record, church was God’s idea, and along with that, it was His idea to put people in chrage of it. Sure you might say people can be corrupted, but you are not going to face the judgemnet seat of christ for the actions and responses of others, just for yours. Being a Christian is not about being treated fairly, the very pereson we model was never treated fairly, his Church killed him, and He died for them.
At the end of the day you will do waht YOU want to do, YOU will do what You think is right and YOU will live for what YOU think is right. I am surprised at how many ‘theologians’ have written in, but i just wonder what makes you so sure you are interpreting everything right, when you obviously don’t seek counsel on it and the only opinion you seem to cheer is the one that agrees with yours.
Maybe if some of you hung around for long enough you might become a leader of sorts and then you can try to get get stubborn, selfish and over sensitive Christian to rally to the cause that they said they would give their life for. Lets see if you can grow a 20,000 member church and deal with all the problems that are involved, and add to the mix, trying to reach a culture that doesn’t want to be reached using only a handful of ‘REAL SOLDIERS’. But why don’t we start small, just try leading yourself in the right direction and read ALL the Biblle, not just the bits that support your veiw. But if your unable to give your life fully to Jesus and HIS church and HIS often human leaders (i will never say they are perfect, just appointed) then maybe your not realy all that saved, so there should be an alter call somewhere in a CHURCH this sunday that can help you out.
Yeah there are hypocrites in the church, so you’ll fit right in! See you in Church!
May 5th, 2006 at 11:22 am
Attention you wingers. When the pastor requests that you sign your property over to the church, and asks you to contractually commit to a 10% tithe, then do it. He might be a bad leader but don’t you dare answer back or enter into any debate. Bite the bullet and move on because you’re part of God’s army.
Left, right, left, right, stand to attention soldier!
May 5th, 2006 at 11:35 am
Dondald, dead men don’t own anything! is your income yours, or did God provide means for you to get it? oh but it’s okay, it sounds like God called you not to do everything he told everyone else. By the way, your out of step!
May 5th, 2006 at 11:36 am
Fuck off Steve is what I wanted to write but that would be so unchristian soldierish of me so I won;t say that I’ll just say…ok mine furer.
May 5th, 2006 at 11:39 am
What Scripture was that again Greg? Your showing your true colours.
May 5th, 2006 at 11:46 am
I don;t feel the need to use scripture to attack people with Steve, I actually use scripture to build relatoinship - with other and with God. You come on to this site and think you’ve got the answer to everyones pain becuase you’ve preached and you’ve ben in the army…wel gues what my friend-the only thing you’ve got is a case of hard heartedness. You don;t see the pain and offer gracee - you seee the pain and choose to offer more judgement - more of what turned peopoe away from church. You have absolutely know idea of wqhat these peopoe ahve been through or who they ahve had to suffer at the hadns of “Gods Annointed”. So my scripture reference to you is this: Luke 17 : 2
“And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.
Offer words of grace to the hurting Steve - you leader od leaders you!
May 5th, 2006 at 12:00 pm
Do you want grace, or do you want me to feel sorry for you? there is a big difference. And don’t even begin to deminish what i have been through by saying i “have no idea”. your meassage of grace is a bit rusty, and if you profess to be an all loving all accepting person why so much hostility?
For the record, the purpose of grace is to overcome your problems, not to continue to dwell in them. You lover of lovers you!
May 5th, 2006 at 12:13 pm
Steve, I don’t approach these matters with a brain addled by 25 years of Christian brainwashing.
“Feeling sorry” for someone in unfortunate circumstances might be an evolutionary response designed to provoke us into helping that unfortunate person. If that happens, then “feeling sorry” is a good thing. Brushing the feeling aside, might be appropriate on the battlefield when you’ve just raided a house at night in Iraq, raped the women and shot the men, or taken them back to a prison and smeared faeces all over them and taken sexually suggestive photos and tortured them, in those circumstances feeling sorry might not be appropriate. But somehow, I didn’t think this was the right approach for Christians. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
May 5th, 2006 at 12:18 pm
I want you to acknowledge the pain in peoples stories before you take it upon yourself to offer them the wisdon of your counsel. The hostility stems from coming to a point in my walk (and I have not had the spiritual abuse that many oif the others who post here have had) where I will speak quite plainly and hold back no punches to those who profess to be leaders in the body of Christ and show no compassion or understanding.
I will defend and I will defend with some hostility at times. You choose the role of leader (of course I undersatnd that you are God’s annointed and I shouldn’t question you!).
You come here talking about the troubles you’ve had trying to get unmotivated and lazy pew warming Christians of their arses and into the mission and yet, to a person the people who have posted here are people who have been at the fore front of their faith communities activities. No body wants your pity - people shuold be able to expect that so called and often self appointed leaders will listen and not pass judgement and add to the condemnatoin they already feel.
I am an active member of a faith community and we too ahve many people who don;t seem too motivated to do anything but turn up. I see myself as a leader in my community and I would never talk to any of our peopoe the way you have come in here and written - apart from being simply bad management practice (we’re not in the army now Steve) it’s not very shepherd like either.
I will speak however, harshly and rudely to other leaders who seem to think they’ve got it together and don’t need to listen to others. Why should you listen to the people here? You came here Steve!
May 5th, 2006 at 12:24 pm
In my experience, ex-army/defence people rarely make good leaders in the real world.
Steve demonstrates this quite well.
May 5th, 2006 at 12:28 pm
I am glad you asked for correction…but is there a point? you obviously think you know everything about me and my character…i really hope you are not trying to call me a rapist…the simple fact is that you have lost your objectivity and by the sound of it you don’t even care about truth, you just want to stay in your own little world.
You would be upset if someone said to you that all christians are money grabbing fakes wouldn’t you? please don’t attack soldiers, they are the reason why you even have the ability to have this discussion! they do the hard things that no one else wants to do, and they know how to lay down their lives, they have proved it.
May 5th, 2006 at 12:29 pm
DD….I have noticed simlarly from the ex army personnel I have had the pleasure of encountering. Steve show us you aren’t the same…apologise for the harshness of your post. I apologise for telling to to get fucked…although I did say it would be rude to say it and therefore I wouldn’t say it…come on Steve…show us YOUR true colours!
May 5th, 2006 at 12:38 pm
Steve, the point that I was trying to make by way of extreme caricature was that the necessarily harsh approach soldiers need to adopt is not appropriate for dealing with people with emotional and psychological problems.
May 5th, 2006 at 12:44 pm
Steve why not respond to what I posted at #82. I will make it quite clear that I respect your choce to have been a soldier - but it is true that a certain style seems to be acquired in the military that doesn;t translate well into the civilain world.
Soldiers aren’t the only ones who konw how to lay down there lives - childern and innocent woomen in Iraq have done much the same. 3000 people in the WTC did the same. The passengers on flight 90 something did the same. Young children in starving countries lay down there lives every day. Soldiers lay dowen their lives in uniform - not better!
And actually the spirit of anarchy and freedom from the days of the hippy anti war and anti governemtn control spawned the world wide web…and that is what gives us the ability to have this discussion!
May 5th, 2006 at 12:45 pm
so na na na na na
May 5th, 2006 at 12:52 pm
Greg, in Steve’s defence, soldiers knowingly put their lives at risk in their duties. This is a genuine level of committment as opposed to innocent bystanders being killed in various atrocities. The latter, though tragic, is really not “laying down your life” in the same sense, is it?
May 5th, 2006 at 1:01 pm
you want to see my true colours…I am actually considered amongst my church family to be very large hearted. I do love people, do not mistake strength and resolve for hard heartedness. I know my track record of helping people to stand on thier own two feet with God, and i know i am in the will of God because only a good tree can bear good fruit. I don’t like, however, mechenisms designed, knowingly or unknowingly, that keep people from reaching their destiny.
The problem is that there will always be problems, there will always be hurts and there will always be…well…people. In the place where i was from there are over 45 different congregations, and only about 15 of them are actually ‘planted’ churches. i.e. with an apostle sent out by another church. The rest were started by people who just didn’t like the direction their church was heading or i don’t like what the pastor is preaching about. so they go and start their own church, as if to say that God is speaking out of the other side of his mouth negating the fact that he has already ordained churches for people to ’serve in’, not just attend.
Now im not saying, nor have i ever said that leaders don’t hurt people. i know leaders that do hurt people and most of them come from these self started and self apointed titles. Yes i am saying that they are out there. But there are two points here:
1. The more people that take it upon themselves to go and start the church that God is ‘really’ going to use just makes us all look bad, and i think will grow more crippled christians and healthy ones.
2. God’s Word does say that we are ment to be serving in the church, the answer is not to run and hide from it.
So my question to you now is, to what end do you continue to hold offence/hurt against people, and i admit that there are periods people need to proccess, but Jesus did not teach us to forgive when people say sorry, he just told us to forgive. Now if that is sweeping aside feelings, as has been written to me, then i guess that you should really be taking it up with God, He wants you to forgive!