detoxing from the church
One of our threads has gotten into a conversation about the idea of detoxing from the church and whether Christian community is necessary for following Jesus. This was originally a comment there, but I have elevated it to create its own thread.
As someone who is involved intimately in the mission of an established church, I declare my bias. Somewhere on this site I have mused about the ideas of christians not attending church. I think that the idea of seasons, of needing a break and needing to detox after draining involvements is totally understandable and natural. But I struggle with the idea of a churchless faith as an end point.
As an example, we can say that forgiveness is a universally important thing for Christians and I would have serious troubles with someone arguing that forgiveness is not a necessary element of being a follower of Jesus. However, I can also accept that some people’s path to forgiveness (eg survivors of incest) is so long and complex that it might not be completed within this life time. Perhaps this is not the best analogy but I can understand people in particular circumstances finding that faith communities are just too hard, but I don’t think that you rule make from the experiences of those people in those situations.
I think as humans we need to be in community. I think that particularly in today’s society we have to appreciate in the power of the communal over the individual - in the context of a world where we are taught that each of us is the most important person in the world and that we control our own destinies. I know that churches can be dismal places and people, but they can also be (and often are) wonderful redemptive and inspiring communities.
I think that the gospels were indeed on about the church In John and Matthew particularly we see a whole range of models for the way that people form communities of faith or assist each other along the road. The first thing that Jesus did was to form a community of faith who travelled together with him. He taught us to pray communally to “Our Father”.
Finally, some of the things that people sometimes react to about churches are not in fact essential characteristics of the ecclesia. The idea of formality, demands, structures or even buildings are not essential to the making of a faith community. In fact some of the people commenting here are working pretty hard at reshaping and rethinking what it means to be church in Australian society these days.
Anyway, just some general thoughts and again not being at all critical of those who comment here that they are or have been on a break from institutional church. Just teasing at some of the edges of where those “breaks” creep towards more generalised statements.
May 5th, 2006 at 1:11 pm
Wow - just been reading down the page after reading through the discussion surrounding H.S. and The Australian. But man i gotta say i did not see STEVE (he yells his name) coming, not at all. Lots of vitriol and aggression has our STEVE.
Interesting questions are being raised here, questions that won’t be answered overnight, (though at the rate you guys comment who knows…?) questions like if we had the power to totally reshape the church how would we make it look? I come from a background of inductive logic so i like to build things from the ground up and i am most interested in seeing what is built out of this discussion. You never know, when God has healed your wounds he may well call you to create a church in which people suffering similar problems may seek to come, or he may just ask you to be part of the reimagining and reformation of western church, something which is happening here and across the internet. i suspect that church is headed somewhere new, somwhere vastly smaller (an oxymoron?) and much more numerous. That is my suspicion, unfounded though it may be.
This recently hit my inbox and i’d be interested to know how (and if) you guys relate to this:
The Secular Church
The following article, written by Rick Dugan offers an interesting perspective on the present challenges facing the church. Rick has been leading an international church in the Middle East for many years…
The Secular Church
We are a part of the Church at a pivotal time in history. For the last 1600 years western nations could proudly claim to be the home of `Christendom’ – lands and cultures where Christian values reigned and where the church wielded significant influence. But no longer. Christendom is dying. Rather than occupying a central place in society as it has since the fourth century, the Christian church is now finding itself on the margins – a situation similar to what the early church faced.
Many attribute this loss of influence to the rapid secularization of western culture. Yet statistics indicate that contemporary America is not less but more spiritual than it was in previous decades. The secular society has failed to satisfy spiritual thirst, solve the world’s problems, or provide meaningful answers to life. Now many are willing to acknowledge a divine dimension to reality. Though more open to the influence of the supernatural in their lives, Americans are increasingly less likely to look to the institutional church for spiritual guidance. The success of books and films such as The Da Vinci Code reveal how deep is the distrust of institutional religion while highlighting people’s desire for a spiritual connection through non-traditional means.
Why has this happened? Let me suggest that one cause may be the secularization of the church rather than the secularization of society. At first the idea of a secular church may appear to be a contradiction in terms. After all, the Church is a religious institution, and “secular” refers to something that is not influenced by religion. A secular worldview assumes that faith is a personal rather than public matter and that the problems of life can be addressed by science and reason. In subtle ways this worldview has permeated the church of North America.
During the era of the megachurches a strong emphasis was placed on personal application and meeting felt needs. The autonomous individualism that characterizes a secular society was encouraged as churches turned the gospel into a means of personal fulfillment. A subtle shift occurred in the interest of “relevancy” as the outward proclamation of the story of Jesus and its claims upon us was replaced with the inward application of principles to enhance our lives.
A second way that the secular worldview has influenced the body of Christ is in our approach to church growth. Many churches engaged in marketing rather than mission to help their congregations grow. As George Barna writes, “For several decades, the Church has relied upon greater sums of money, better techniques, bigger numbers and facilities, and more impressive credentials as the means to influence society at large. These elements have failed us; in our efforts to serve God, we have crowded out God Himself.”
Where do we go from here? We could spend our time mourning the death of Christendom and fighting to regain our position of power, but is that what the Church is called to do? We must resist looking to our culture to provide us with the tools to minister. Instead, we need to look to Jesus. It is the incarnation that provides our model for ministry rather than Wall Street or Hollywood. In John 20:21 he said, “As the Father has sent me, I also send you.” The leaders who guide the church into the future will not be CEOs. They will be prophets and poets who look to God and point their congregations to Him.
In Mark 2:15 we see Jesus exemplifying mission and leadership in a world similar to our own. It says, `Now it happened, as He was dining in Levi’s house, that many tax collectors and sinners also sat together with Jesus and His disciples; for there were many, and they followed Him.’ For Jesus, mission often took place in the context of a community. Rather than a multiple staff, He had friends. Rather than marketing, we see hospitality. Rather than a program, He shared a meal. He brought the kingdom of God into the homes and workplaces where life happened.
Second, Jesus demonstrated that leaders themselves must be involved in mission. As a leader, He entered the home of someone that the religious professionals would have avoided. But not only did he visit tax collectors and sinners, he led his disciples there as well. No doubt the disciples felt uncomfortable as they sat with people that the religious establishment rejected, but they trusted the leadership of their rabbi. They were willing to follow him into dangerous territory. Today we need leaders who think like missionaries and lead their congregations in mission.
Third, Jesus invested His time in people who were followers and not just customers. His concern was never to draw a crowd, but to make disciples. We need churches willing to abandon the world’s standards for success – standards of size and budgets – by becoming intentional about ministering to those on the margins and helping them become followers of Jesus.
More important than engaging our culture, we must reengage with the mission of God. Darrel Guder rightly says, “The answer to the crisis of the North American church will not be found at the level of method and problem solving. The real issues in the current crisis of the Christian church are spiritual and theological.” To overcome the effects of secularization and to minister once again from the margins of society, we must become worshiping communities participating in God’s mission.
The world doesn’t need – or want – a secular church. As secular rock group Green Day sing, “The Jesus of suburbia is a lie.” They speak for a world in crisis – a world that no longer believes that science, politics, or organized religion can provide a life of hope and meaning. In this context, Christians live as an alternative community defined by our trust in Christ and participation in His work.
Overcoming our compromise with secular culture begins with repentance. We must confess we have relied on man’s wisdom to fulfill God’s purposes rather than looking to the Author and Finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2). Once again we must listen to the voice of the Spirit and follow the example of Jesus to become the people of God. As we live out the message of reconciliation and invite others to trust in God, our churches become the arena where He lives and where others can witness what life is like under His rule. This is our greatest witness.
it originated at The Eighth Day http://www.theeighthday.org.au/mt/gdh/
May 5th, 2006 at 1:13 pm
sorry about the lengthy-ness of my post, i idn’t realise til i’d hit ’submit’. thanks for the privilege of allowing me an insight into your thoughts and experiences.
May 5th, 2006 at 1:44 pm
Wire, that is very insightful. Please do not apologize for substance, we all could use more.
Can i pose a difficult question?
What heppens when this theory becomes reality, the pastor of a church says that we are now going to primarily focus on mission. Consequently people and resources may stretch thin, as does happen, then all of a sudden the people in that church start to say things like, ‘i just don’t get fed enough in this church’ or ‘i am getting tired of all this outreach and my calling is in-house ministries, i think i am just being used’.
Another question that may be difficult to answer:
We all will agree that Jesus is the ultimate example of a leader, and most of us would think that Jesus would never do anything to hurt us or call us to anything that might even kill us. The fact is that He does. You don’t have to read very far in a book of matyrs to find people who suffer more than we ever may for ther faith, for thier call and for the prosperity of their church.
May 5th, 2006 at 1:45 pm
Sorry, Caps lock was on!
May 5th, 2006 at 1:50 pm
Why did anybody waste time responding to Steve? He clearly knows it all. Athough, mind you, the first bit of theology i noted him espousing is:
Steve wrote: “Dondald, dead men don’t own anything!”
Now, if we were to refer to Scripture to discover how the Lord views ownership of material possessions after conversion, we might start with Acts 5:1-6. In its context we do see that many of the early church were selling their goods and this money was being reditributed to the poor … and then Ananias was bad etc etc … the only verse that is relevant to Steve’s assertion is Acts 5:4 “While it remained unsold did it not remain your own? And after it was sold was it not yours to do with as you pleased? …” Now Ananias and his wife were believers; dead men (literally a bit later; but not the point). Notice that there was no compulsion and no pressure for the early believers to sell their stuff and give it up. It was free-will. It was also distributed to the poor, not for the use of the “leaders”. Note also, that Ananias and his wife are not criticised or judged for their failure to give their money … the Scripture clearly states that IT WAS THEIRS - although they had died with Christ. No, the judgment was only and solely because they “had lied to the Holy Spirit”.
Now, any good (or even passable) theologian understands the principle of “first mention”. I will apply this principle to the first “theological statement” i noticed in Steve’s writings. (Not saying he didnt make earlier TSs, just saying it was the first i noticed as i scrolled up thru the posts). Anyway, you were WRONG on this one Steve; and i find the rest of your posts consistently follow the principle of first mention. Just in case you dont get my point; WRONG! Not only are you WRONG, but you’re dedicated to being WRONG.
So, i 4 1, will not dialog with you. You are part of the problem, not the solution. Jesus said, “Feed my lambs”, not “Fleece my lambs” …. oops, i guess you would like to apply your principle of first mention here.
Having said this, i am not wanting to cause you any pain Steve (AKA macadamia nut); just not keen to see the lambs being bashed!
May 5th, 2006 at 1:57 pm
Isn’t there a distinction between serving in a church and serving in the church? Steve, you are talking about the former, Wire the latter.
How do you know that your actions in following a leader in a local church is in any way related to serving God? Just because the leader talks the talk and appears to produce “good fruit” is no guarantee. Non-church organisations also produce “good fruit”.
My recommendation is to abandon all forms of organised faith. Helping the continuation and effectiveness of a local church is only on a par with working for a secular organisation such as a charity. That is, churches are just another form of man-made organisation. Considered in this light, you should consider more carefully how you spend your valuable time in helping others.
Do you really think an organisation led by someone who has studied theology and shit out of the bible has any advantage over people with real-world skills who lead real organisations?
At least Steve has some skills gained from the armed forces - although they may not always be the right ones.
May 5th, 2006 at 2:06 pm
Wire wrote: “You never know, when God has healed your wounds he may well call you to create a church in which people suffering similar problems may seek to come, or he may just ask you to be part of the reimagining and reformation of western church, something which is happening here and across the internet. i suspect that church is headed somewhere new, somwhere vastly smaller (an oxymoron?) and much more numerous. That is my suspicion, unfounded though it may be.”
Thanks wire, i know of quite a few believers, including this scattered sheep, that have the same suspicion. I have the sense that the Lord is calling out more and more, preparing us for He knows what, and i suspect in time He will make His will known. In the meantime, we press on!
May 5th, 2006 at 2:06 pm
James, your own use of scripture speaks against your staement. You quoted, “once it was sold it was not yours to do with as you please”, so why are people so concerned about the distribution of church funds. I know they went to the poor in Acts, but irrespective of where it goes, it not yours once it is given. Please help me understand why people fret over things that are of no concern to them. If God has called to a church, to serve in that church and to tithe in that church it is not my place to question where it is going, once i gave it away it was no longer my own, including my life.
May 5th, 2006 at 2:12 pm
Now, im not quite sure which part of “i 4 1, will not dialog with you.” that Steve failed to understand. Maybe someone else, if they could be bothered, would care to let Steve know the correct wording of Acts 5:4.
May 5th, 2006 at 2:27 pm
Steve - you don’t come across as large hearted here. You come across as someone that can’t hear the sound of the weeping behind all the words on this blog.
May 5th, 2006 at 2:31 pm
I’m not sure who you are trying to convince james, me or yourself!
But anyway, it has been real and i hope you guy’s find what makes a difference. all i know is that you don’t get to the right destinations by going down the wrong paths. Reconciliation can begin with forgiveness, somtimes, even better than an apology.
May 5th, 2006 at 2:49 pm
Steve - i think some of this issue comes down to personal vs corporate conviction. What do you do when your church is engaged in an activity that you believe God says is wrong? For example if my pastor was to say that technology was inherently evil and that anyone who uses the internet should be ostracised from our community* then i would take issue with that because i don’t believe it to be a godly viewpoint. Something does not become true because my pastor says it to be true. So assuming i find it impossible to reconcile own conviction with his i am stuck with a problem - what do i do now? Do i stay with a community that does something i hold to be wrong in God’s eyes and try to change it from the inside? (something which risks undermining the leadership, causing division and a whole bunch of other problems) Do i leave the community and “abandon my post” so to speak? Or do i stay and just ignore my own concience and rely that the “spiritual heavies” have it right? Is there even a universal answer? I don’t know, all i know is that the answer is not found in telling people to “suck it up” and just get on with life, nor is the answer in isolation. To my mind the answer is found in godly discussion, studying the Word, learning from the mistakes of others and most importantly in prayer (both alone and with the body).
The other important (and probably unanswerable in the universal sense) question that comes out of this thread is one that has no doubt been asked before. “How much detox is enough and when is it time to get back into Christian community?” A subsequent question this raises (and maybe a more important one) is “is this a decision that i make on my own or do i have a responsibility to the body to make this decision with others, giving them permission to tell me things i don’t neccersarily want to hear?” Are these decisions one makes unilaterally? Can a man be an island?
*Note: the actual activity is less the issue but more the problem of needing to resolve the gap between a personal conviction and the groups actions.
May 5th, 2006 at 3:15 pm
#99 Bec - - great insight. well spoken.
#101 wire - - excellent questions. They really speak to the dilema in which many of us here find ourselves today, and the whole purpose of this thread.
Steve - - I don’t think you fully apprehend the depth of emotion that many of us are stuggling with……anger, hurt, disappointment…..from the spiritual abuse we have experienced in our previous churches and ministries. These waters run deep, so much so, that most of us have no tolerance right now for judgment or criticism and the last thing we want to hear is the same old sh*% that has been stuffed down our throats for years. Compassion and a willingness to listen and try to understand our perspective is vital if any type of meaningful dialogue is going to happen.
May 5th, 2006 at 3:18 pm
Mmm… Very interesting conversation? From my experience (I was forced to go to church my whole life) church’s today, especially leaders, just don’t understand where people are at. All they care about is their vision and what they want to do, and they’ll do what ever means necessary to get there, even if means casualties along the way. I just want to be able to enjoy life and enjoy God. Jesus is my shepeard, and i don’t need church run my life!
May 5th, 2006 at 3:20 pm
You don’t have to read very far in a book of matyrs to find people who suffer more than we ever may for ther faith, for thier call and for the prosperity of their church.
True - but nobody who killed a martyr ever became popular!
May 5th, 2006 at 3:35 pm
daingerosdave, i am glad that you have found a shpherd in Jesus. But let me ask you, do you really feel able to hear from God personally to the point that you can walk the path of your destiny. If you read the Bible you will find that church is God’s idea, and he has delegated leaders to help us on our walk.
Part of being a Christian is knowing how to serve, especially the vision of a church. If you don’t get invovled in a church i fear for your growth. Don’t become a victim of the ‘anti-establisment, we don’t need authority, movement’ that is causing Christians to do their own thing instead of doing what they said they would, and that is lay down their life for whatever Jesus wants.
May 5th, 2006 at 4:00 pm
Steve…..
you just don’t get it, dude. A friggin cookie cutter christian.
I bet you are so closed-minded that it would be impossible for you to ever really step outside of the religious box in which you live and see things from someone’s else’s perspective, with compassion, instead of judgment and criticism.
Maybe this thread should be re-named…….”Detoxing from ignorant christians like Steve.”
You see, we’re really not that much against the institution of the church, but rather the assholes like you that are in the church.
If I have caused offense, you were forwarned in post # 103.
May 5th, 2006 at 4:09 pm
AFB….
So causing offence is OK fro you to do with your opinion, and ordinary language, but i can’t share my opinion. You call me names and then talk about judgemnet and criticism. Who is the Closed minded?
May 5th, 2006 at 4:21 pm
DD… ref #96. I currently run a $2,000,000 a year business and i have 12 staff.
May 5th, 2006 at 5:20 pm
AshesForBeauty…
I have been reading through these messages and i don’t know where i stand. But i don’t think your statement is very progressive. It sounds like raw emotion. I don’t agree with a lot of things said but people are allowed their opinions…you cant just go off in a name calling frenzy and think you are making a point. One person in this blog it seems is copping the effects of a certain culture and because it isn’t the norm he is called names. Sound familiar?
May 5th, 2006 at 7:03 pm
Amazing that greg, james, ashes, bec, donald doofus all sound like
BRIAN HOUSTON in their abuse of others.
You guys obviously read his books and listen to his messages.
You would all make great little Houstons.
The person you despise is actually the person many of you have become.
Maybe thats what Jesus meant about judging others - you have actually become like the man you judge
May 5th, 2006 at 7:08 pm
And if anyone gets angry with me remember I have been hurt by all you
liberal type christians and I am allowed to vent all my hurt and pain.
or
dont you have compassion on conservative believers - we bleed just as much as you
May 5th, 2006 at 7:33 pm
Regarding detoxing from churches, is there an expectation amongst some that churches should be somehow different and better than other organisations? Perhaps the bitterness for some comes from having thes unrealistic expectations. Unrealistic because, after all, churches are just another man-made form of organisation - but that’s just stating the obvious.
Wouldn’t a better strategy for church-goers be to rotate their attendance around a number of churches and groups? Like financial investement, it may be better not to put all your eggs in one basket.
May 5th, 2006 at 8:04 pm
Wire, “how much detox is enough …” Short answer: Whatever it takes. For some it may be months; for others it may be a lifetime. The point is, we don’t give up on others and we don’t give up on ourselves and we don’t stop trusting the Lord … even if we die never having recovered.
Have you read, think its in Romans, “… we who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak, and that not to please ourselves.” There was a time when i thought i might have been one of the strong ones. Now i know, without any doubt, i am one of the weaklings. But that doesnt mean im willing to submit to a lie. You’ve heard of passive resistance. Well, let me introduce you to pathetic persistance, AKA, James!
Monk wrote: “We already are casualties of the system! that is why we are here talking the way we do, coz no where else is safe to do so. The internet is the catacombs of the 21st Century.Casualties are not in a position to begin fighting again.. ”
Wire, we are not all sooks who quit our local church because the pastor got cross and yelled at us. (Some might be like that, and that’s OK … ) Many of us believers who have steadfastly refused to yield to the pressure to accept what we believed to be “a different gospel”. Or, to varying degrees, we have been those that embraced the different gospel until, recognising it for what it was, we began to question. Or whatever, we all have differing - but interestingly similar stories.
Whether we are casualties as a result of our own wrong thinking or wrong actions, or wheter we became casualties as a consequence of some more noble action. Fact is, as Monk reminds us, we are casualties.
And, because the strong are not interested in bearing with us; we seek to help each other.
May 5th, 2006 at 8:30 pm
Ned, sorry you found some of my comments harsh. They probably were, i confess. But what do you do when you know you are weak and others are vulnerable too and you are confronted by a wolf. You just might start whacking at it with the largest lump of wood or rock you can find. I saw what appeared to me to be a wolf so i tossed a couple of small rocks in the hope of chasing it away.
May 5th, 2006 at 10:09 pm
At the risk of inflaming some of you, I want to introduce another perspective. I have been following closely the various opinions expressed here and elsewhere on ‘signposts’, re the disillusionment, abuse etc that so many have suffered as a result of attending an institutional Church.
I am currently the Senior Pastor of a small but growing church in Sydney where we have determined that we will no longer conform to the image demanded of us by a hierarchy who have clearly lost their way. We have all been victims in various ways, and have spent years ‘detoxing’ from the toxic influence of increasingly cultish behaviour; wrapped up in contemporary, ‘charismagic’ and ‘pente-this-will-cost-you’ movements.
We have determined to find a way out of the insidious black cloud of disillusionment, despair and depression that overtook us somewhere along the way. Together we offer each other encouragement, grace and real friendship for the remarkable but incredibly painful journey we have begun.
As an AOG pastor of many, many years; I too have suffered greatly at the hands of an abusive, elitist and consistently (and increasingly) arrogant group of Church (Executive) leaders who seek to control all dissidents – those who refuse to assimilate into the prevailing culture and evidence the ‘same spiritual DNA’ as proof of assimilation. The shameful (and shaming) tactics used by these ‘men of god’, might be expected in a cruel, repressive and intolerant regime … but not in the Lord’s Church.
I have personally felt the sting of betrayal; overt attempts to control; and the sinister use of twisted innuendo (the cowardly, contrived, concoctions of closed minds; countenanced in the confines of Executive meetings where NO thought is ever given to ‘right of reply’; ‘judge not an elder unless…;’ or innocent until proved guilty etc) and have long since been sentenced to serve out an indefinite term in some spiritual ‘Siberia’.
My ‘sin’ was refusing to bow the knee to intimidation, deception and just plain lies. Unfortunately, when cornered in a contrived (and concealed) ambush, I shot myself in the foot by declaring that my ‘accusers’ were acting contrary to scripture and therefore refused to recognise their authority in the (then) current situation.
To add insult to injury (mine - I was on a roll at the time) I then followed up with: “… you are also guilty of denying me my common law rights …” And just for good measure, chimed in with, “in another setting you would be inviting court action, which incidentally I have not yet ruled out …” (Two can play the intimidation game). Oops … so much for the truth will set you free!
Siberia … I welcome you … at least your icy coldness, is not born of some convoluted conspiracy of contrived, ill-considered and cowardly conduct!
Now, this is not to say, that I am absolved from my part in any hurt caused by wrong doctrine e.g. tithing, prosperity etc. although in the interest of fair play my foray into these arenas was short-lived and quickly followed by a large dose of Holy Ghost conviction.
I have, to the best of my ability and where appropriate, sought forgiveness for my action or inaction. I have forgiven (and continue to do so … it’s a long process) those who have caused me or my family a great deal of harm.
I refuse to become (or remain) a victim of these thugs. Even though my healing is interminably slow; it is thank God, progressive; thanks mainly to an incredibly understanding wife (also an AOG pastor) and a couple of GOOD friends.
Before venturing into my latest attempt at Church, I spent several years ‘in the wilderness’, (out of ministry) seeking the truth; only to have the Lord declare … “I took you out of church in order to get church out of you’. Not exactly what I was expecting at the time! I was amazed at just how insidious is the ‘little leaven’ that sneaks in under the guise of ‘we are your leaders … trust us’! Sort of ‘frog in the kettle stuff’!
I still don’t have the answers, but I am blessed to have a group of wonderful and courageous fellow seekers of truth accompanying me on this most urgent of all journeys – I want my faith back!! I have only had the courage to ‘get back into the saddle’ because of caring friends who have continued to believe in me and the call they perceive is still on my life. I have tried (very hard) to evade the call, but have found that you can’t earnestly seek the Lord and not be obedient when he (persistently) calls!
I personally know of a great many AOG pastors that like me are feed up with the current regime. One of the dilemmas we face is; do we simply give up and walk away and leave the Church at the mercy of the current executive leadership, or do we fight on believing that the Lord will prevail?
I am also acutely aware of the harm done by many pastors, I’m certainly not trying to lessen their culpability … their deeds will not go unanswered … a sobering thought for all of us!
I have therefore decided not to suffer in silence any longer and call on any other pastors out there who know the truth to stand up and be counted. The damage done in the name of church in this country is astounding, the pain I sense on this blog alone has demanded that I break my silence and speak up. Hopefully the outcome will be fruitful for all concerned. I pray that it will be so.
Jack-of-it!
May 5th, 2006 at 10:22 pm
Jack-of-it!
Thankyou!! I am so glad to finally hear an AOG pastor standing for truth. Please read my post in the Geoff Bullock no 2 thread.
I was an AOG pastor too ……. there’s a weight off! Feel like I’m at an AA meeting!
Bless you.
May 5th, 2006 at 10:42 pm
Wow!
I found this site following up on the Hillsong discussions and it’s really opened my eyes to the hurts that a lot of people are carrying.
I’ve always said that the worst part about church is that it has people in it!
Having attended 2 Hillsong conferences and watched a lot of early morning televangelists (thanks to 2 kids) what strikes me profoundly is the preaching of the Word (or lack thereof) - instead of Paul’s “Christ and Him crucified” we have ‘Better Budgeting’ and ‘Weight Control’. Bah!
The key difference (that I perceive) between my church and Hillsong - besides about 18,880 congregants - is in the preaching … a significant part of our leadership meetings is formed around discussing whether the preaching is Christ-centered or not.
Anyway, I thank God that my arm’s length experience of the HS churches hasn’t led me to the hurtful experiences that I’ve read about here -don’t worry, I have other hurtful experiences to deal with
- on the other side of the coin, there’s now a long addition to my prayer list.
May 5th, 2006 at 10:43 pm
I’m speechless that a serving pastor from an AOG background could be this honest.
It forces me to revisit my ‘all pastors are human filth’ belief system.
May 5th, 2006 at 11:01 pm
Jane,
Thanks for your comments, I read your post and I’m encouraged that others are ‘coming out’. Maybe a ‘support group for disillusioned pastors’ is in order? Not sure at this stage, as there are still so many questions to be answered.
I have never felt so ill-equipped to serve the Lord than I do right now. I am often overcome by self-doubt and disillusionment and would love to ‘step down’ and not have the ‘pressure’ of trying to care for others; but in spite of all my misgivings I am constantly forced to admit that I’m still called and the call consumes me!
Lance,
I don’t know what to say … but thanks mate for extending me some grace. Even pastors are human and make mistakes; the trouble is our mistakes have the potential to do a significant amount of harm.
Jack-of-it!