detoxing from the church
One of our threads has gotten into a conversation about the idea of detoxing from the church and whether Christian community is necessary for following Jesus. This was originally a comment there, but I have elevated it to create its own thread.
As someone who is involved intimately in the mission of an established church, I declare my bias. Somewhere on this site I have mused about the ideas of christians not attending church. I think that the idea of seasons, of needing a break and needing to detox after draining involvements is totally understandable and natural. But I struggle with the idea of a churchless faith as an end point.
As an example, we can say that forgiveness is a universally important thing for Christians and I would have serious troubles with someone arguing that forgiveness is not a necessary element of being a follower of Jesus. However, I can also accept that some people’s path to forgiveness (eg survivors of incest) is so long and complex that it might not be completed within this life time. Perhaps this is not the best analogy but I can understand people in particular circumstances finding that faith communities are just too hard, but I don’t think that you rule make from the experiences of those people in those situations.
I think as humans we need to be in community. I think that particularly in today’s society we have to appreciate in the power of the communal over the individual - in the context of a world where we are taught that each of us is the most important person in the world and that we control our own destinies. I know that churches can be dismal places and people, but they can also be (and often are) wonderful redemptive and inspiring communities.
I think that the gospels were indeed on about the church In John and Matthew particularly we see a whole range of models for the way that people form communities of faith or assist each other along the road. The first thing that Jesus did was to form a community of faith who travelled together with him. He taught us to pray communally to “Our Father”.
Finally, some of the things that people sometimes react to about churches are not in fact essential characteristics of the ecclesia. The idea of formality, demands, structures or even buildings are not essential to the making of a faith community. In fact some of the people commenting here are working pretty hard at reshaping and rethinking what it means to be church in Australian society these days.
Anyway, just some general thoughts and again not being at all critical of those who comment here that they are or have been on a break from institutional church. Just teasing at some of the edges of where those “breaks” creep towards more generalised statements.
May 5th, 2006 at 11:11 pm
Dear Jack-of-it
Thanks for your input and honesty…very refreshing!
May 5th, 2006 at 11:18 pm
Jack-of-it,
I have never felt so ill-equipped to serve the Lord than I do right now.
I just read 1 Cor 2:1-5. Sounds like you are in good company.
May 5th, 2006 at 11:47 pm
“Jack-of-it!”, thanks for being so honest. Interesting thread, yes, there sure are a lot of hurting people, in the church (building) and outside the chuch. I’ve had to detox a few times in the past, and am trying to reflect on the different churches we attended (we are nomadic), they all had their problems because it’s not a perfect world, especially with an imperfect person like me.
Rather than reinforce what has been already said, I’ll try and relate to the period when we attended a church, wherein it was the deepest time in God. I know that ‘term’ sounds shallow, but what I mean is, the whole ‘church thing’ was really great, not from a selfish point of view (bless me, bless me), but I beleive it was the closest we can get to the ‘real church’ as possible. Here as the things that really were paramount.
1. The pastor was a real man of God, prayed 3 to 4 hrs every morning (no kidding), man of grace, wisdom, he really was, an example of Christ. Trusting people was high on his agenda.
2. From #1, he lead by example, and also served people in such a humble manner, he was a ‘the pastor should even clean the toilets’ man.
3. You could get close to this guy, he was real, he would share his heart and his life with everyone, he told of his faults, his experiences, was always ‘there’ for counselling,etc. He was a friend, not an ‘untouchable’.
4. I know I’m rabbitting on about the pastor, but that WAS the reason why the church was just SO good, he was just like the good shepherd looking after his flock, he was a living breathing example of Jesus. Willing to impart the word of God to people, accept us as we were.
From his example, we, as a body of believers, we able to minister and fellowship with each other, and the community at large. I believe that ‘church’ typified the early church.
As I read posts here, I hope and pray that people who are now detoxing don’t feel guilty, after all, the word ‘church’ means (ekklesia) “called out ones”, it never implied bricks and mortar. People are more important.
I do believe detoxing is sometimes necessary and important. The end result is usually good.
That reminds me of a joke a pastor used to share often, having a ‘dig’ at people who thought that by attending church, they will go to heaven. he would say ….
“If I go into a garage, it doesn’t make me a car, does it !!”
I see the church (as a building/assembly) as an extension of being a Christian, a need to fellowship, hear the word, etc,etc, but I do not see the church (building) as ‘the fundamental and primary aspect’ of being a Christian. The real church, after all, is the body of Christ, believers, …….. sometimes the ‘hand’ or the ‘foot’ needs a detox and some time out, … yep !!
May 5th, 2006 at 11:53 pm
“Thanks for your comments, I read your post and I’m encouraged that others are ‘coming out’.”
The parallels between the ‘contemporary’ church former leaders/members ‘coming out’…and the gay kind of coming out…has not gone unnoticed.
The fear, the how-will-my-family/my-friends/my-church react thoughts, the felt need for anonymity, the lack of understanding, the feeling of being alone, the mind games, and for some, the suicidal thoughts.
And because many of the aspects of the feelings are similar, the remedies are similar.
Just as we have laws that deal with sexual discrimination in the workplace and in society, and workplace bullying laws…I think it’s reasonable to push for laws that specifically prohibit bullying in religious environments…(although I think some of the actions of Houston and Co. at Hillsong could be dealt with under existing workplace bullying laws).
That such laws specifically for religious communities are needed is unsatisfactory, but the present circumstances in many churches are unsatisfactory.
(Note also - how hard it was for the Presbyterian Church to act against ‘The Fellowship’ at Camberwell).
Appealing to arrogant church leaders’ sense of fair play….or the bible or common sense has proved unsuccesful.
The only thing that works, is having pastoral staff sitting in an office, with lawyers telling them that new religious bullying laws prevent them from being excessively coercive, or else the church runs the serious risk of litigation.
It (the threat and reality of litigation) has been what’s finally worked in the Anglican and the Roman Catholic churches dealing with sexual abuse issues….after decades of denial.
Another example………I am told that in the wake of recent anti-competition court action in Australia…that lawyers are now advising company executives attending trade shows that should they find unwittingly find themselves in a conversation with a competitor where pricing of products is being discussed, that they should literally jump out of the nearest window, or at the very least be seen by others to be leaving the room immediately.
I really believe the only real answer to scale down….(of course you’ll never eliminate church psychological abuse) is lawyers scaring the shit out of pastors about the ramifications of breaching ‘religious bullying’ laws….
These pastors are certainly way too arrogant to listen to fellow Christians or anybody else for that matter.
And judging by the concerns expressed by some politicians…I don’t think you’d have too much problem getting such laws enacted in Australia….once you’ve dealt with the ‘Government interfering in church’ arguments.
But I mean….really….how could you argue against religious bullying laws…..?
If your church isn’t bullying people…then it’s not an issue for your church.
May 6th, 2006 at 12:01 am
I mean…feel free to shoot down what I’m proposing..(the religious bullying laws)…but I think at some point…once we’ve expressed our anger, that some sort of constructive solution needs to be found somewhere along the line to effectively deal with the problem of abusive churches.
I was just thinking outside the square…
Like the idea of protesting church teaching on the tithe, by dumping livestock and agricultural produce next to the Welcome Booth at the megachurches…and saying…’here’s your bloody tithe’…
May 6th, 2006 at 12:26 am
Another AOG pastor chiming in here.
I am another who is sick & tired of the lies, cover ups, deceit etc from within the movement. The rot at the top has effectively ruined a once good fellowship.
The AoG was once honourable, God loving & God fearing but not any more.
I am ashamed of what the movement has become & will not identify with the houstonisation of it.
We will not sing any of their pop songs at our meetings and will not pay royalties to the till on the hill.
When we receive enquiries, we are quick to identify ourselves as “old fashioned Jesus loving, Gospel preaching pentecostal” and “absolutely unlike hillsong”.
We do not do the “pre offering sermonettes” and people are given the freedom to participate in giving if they wish, without obligation.
The poor & ordinary are welcomed in probably even more than the well off & exceptional. Id rather fellowship with honesty in a flanno than a snake in a suit.
Neither do we suck up to politicians who need to be rebuked for their lies or leech money from the government to do works of charity with their check book. No one with a conscience would give a sacrifice that cost him nothing.
I, like many others, hope & pray for the movement to return to the Lord & repent of our arrogance & blatant apostacy. We live in hope that the current leadership will repent or be removed.
When I entered full time ministry I did so because I believed that I was called by the Lord. I believe it as much today as ever. I know the Lord & I know right from wrong & will have nothing to do with this corrupt circus that is the modern pentecostal church. Have I changed? No, but the denomination certainly has.
All I can do is take accountability & responsibility for my own actions & to be faithful to the trust given to me while I work out my own salvation with fear & trembling & help as many as I can along the way & encourage others to do likewise. Just as Jesus would have done.
I want to encourage those who have been burned out, cheated, lied to, used, abused, chewed up & spat out while they genuinely sought to please Jesus from a pure & vunerable heart. Im sorry that you were taken advantage of by unfaithful shepherds who only fed themselves. They will answer for that and a stricter judgement awaits them.
There are still good pastors & good churches out there. Dont throw the baby out with the bath water. Take you time, be lead of the Holy Ghost & next time round, have your eyes wide open, not just your heart.
The Bride & the harlot are being separated & by their fruit you will know them.
It can be hard to keep a sweet spirit at times. Its like the Book says: with much knowledge comes much sorrow.
From an honest pastor’s perspective, I know that there are many, many good God loving people out there who want to fellowship together & worship the Lord with an assurance of safety & integrity. I do my best to help provide that so that we can all grow in the grace of God together.
Do I speak this way from the pulpit? You bet I do!
May 6th, 2006 at 1:25 am
Jack-of-it…and Also-jack-of-it…some questions….
What are the consequences of ….trying to work within the current system to challenge the ‘Houstonisation’ of the AOG….and…..should the internal system not be an option for change…….what are the consequences for you as pastors..for going outside the system…and putting your name to an ‘enough is enough’ public protest against the ‘houstonisation’ of the AOG?…(eg. ‘rogue’ priests who challenge the Pope)
I’m not asking you to do either of these things, just putting forward hypothetical scenarios, and trying to discover what the risks and rewards are….
As far as I understand…..AOG’s are fairly autonomous….although there is an expectation that your church would not ‘interfere in the ministry of another AOG church’.
I would have thought anything you do internally or externally in the AOG system would be seen as interfering in the functioning of Hillsong….and the system has no effective way of dealing with a bad apple at the top…except maybe state or national conferences, which I presume are just touchy-feely dick-size-comparing events in swish hotels.
May 6th, 2006 at 1:33 am
I guess my ban on conversations with human filth….errrr…..pastors…..is now over.
Pastors acknowledging what’s been going on………who would have thought it…
May 6th, 2006 at 5:13 am
Lance … there have always been some good and honest Pastors out there.
You know them by their refusal to preach the tithe, they disclose their modest income, they are not on the lucrative speaking circuit … they spend their days visiting the sick, counselling, diligently exegeting the Bible etc.
Their eys are focused on the bottome - not the top.
There is and always will be wheat and tares, sheep and goats, shepherds and wolves, Good Shepherds that look after the flock and Shepherds that grow fat on the flock.
It’s great to see some AOG Pastors coming out - but like the scientology juggernaut, Hillsong and its like will be around until the ‘end of the age’.
May 6th, 2006 at 5:56 am
Jack-of-it…and Also-jack-of-it
In the town where we live, hoostinisation (although methinks hoostin is himself a product of a much broader heresy, a different gospel) is sweeping into every nook and cranny of the evangelical church. It has become so that there is nowhere safe for the scattered sheep to flee. Even the most conservative evangelical churches are being sucked in to accept compromise in the name of Unity! Some still look pretty good on the surface, and i am not imputing motive to anyone, but if one has been attuned it is possible to observe the “New Paradigms” (different gospels) rising on the horizon; just a little dark cloud.
I know of a couple of pastors from CBC days who have been boldly proclaiming the Word and speaking against the different gospels that have been sweeping thru the evangelical churches; (you would know them too). These men have been labouring for over 20 years to bring change (a return to preaching the Word of God only) within the AoG. For a long time i held out hope, now i believe the AoG has gone the way of the Roman Catholic church at the time of Luther. And even as Luther was incapable of changing the RCC from within, nor will you if you choose to remain within the AoG (or the baptists or the churches of Christ) be able to bring repentance. Its nice to belong, but at what price? A little leaven …
Thank you for your input; please continue to contribute!
May 6th, 2006 at 6:12 am
LF, youre up early; morning to you! “there have always been some good and honest Pastors out there.”
One thing i have observed, it is not always the pastor that is the problem. Church boards (councils, call them what u will) and even denominations as a whole are seeing the benefits of coporatisation; authoritarian leadership, tithing etc etc etc. One way that “good and honest” pastors may escape bashing the sheep; bring in the visiting preacher. Let him preach a Pat Mesiti style message on giving!
Had coffee with the pastor of a largish local church recently; he is quite concerned with some of the things that are happening in the name of Church Growth. But he sees himself as powerless to withstand the change; he is employed by the church council after all … This is a fine young man, to my mind, but …
This thing is so insidious; can anything short of a coming out being separate offer any hope to our children and grandchildren?
May 6th, 2006 at 8:44 am
You guy’s are such a bunch of hypocrites….I read yeasterday all of your stories about how you weren’t allowed to have an opposing opinion to the leaders, or, ask any questions because you would be cut off and kicked out. Well i had a differing opinion to you guy’s yesterday and what happened…..i got kicked out and my opinion was stricken. you guy’s have fallen victim of the same problem you are trying to fix…YOU are the intollerant ones also!
So go and try to make your laws and split churches…spend your days wading through the pools of pity and keep fighting off the ‘wolves’….Go start your perfect church movement… but at the end of the day you will start something that others will not fit into then you will be the ones who are targeted by blog sites and maybe you will be usurped!
GO YOU GOOD THINGS, YOU GOT ALL THE ANSWERS AND KNOW THE ‘TRUE’ GOSPEL! YAY, YAY, YAY, YAY….WE HAVE A NEW SAVIOUR FOR GOD’S CHURCH.
May 6th, 2006 at 10:30 am
One thing in favour of the AoG is the autonomy of the local assembly. The local assembly is responsible for its own governance, constitution & set up. So long as the Statement of Belief is adhered to, there can be voluntary fellowship.
An assembly doesnt have to be a clone of anything unless those who are responsible for the oversight choose to be so.
I have no problem with the Aog Statement of Belief & doctrinal stance. The problem within the AoG is dishonest & deceived power hungry people who are greedy & peddle the Gospel for profit. The AoG was not always like this & not all AoG churches are like this. Problem is, all the high profile ones are & this is what people see.
Because of our autonomy, we can be separate from anything that we want nothing to do with within the Aog. Sadly, every denomination is polluted in some way but when they are centrally goverened, there is no escaping being tarred with their brush & so disassociation is the only course.
I read the Scriptures & I expect every Christian to do the same. If you are well versed you will pick these snake oil salesmen & their false doctrine a mile off. There is so much said about exactly this sort of thing happening in the last days.
The Hillswrong “style” and perceived (deceived?) “success” is seducing many. The adulterous pat mesiti embracing false profit Pringle of the Oxford Falls Sinagogue is just as bad, the poor Salvation Army sent every officer to Hillsbong conference a couple of years ago because their “style” was perceived to be the answer to the Salvos decline.
I detest the corrupt speech & corse joking that comes from the Hillswrong type pulpits in the name of being “relevant & contemporary”. I also detest the way in which the Truth is compromised for the sake of unity with denominations that preach heresy . Indeed the Aog has become just like the Church of Rome & does anyone want to guess who the pope is?
Im not trying to change the AoG, only God could do that with a sweeping conviction of sin & how I wish He would. Ill keep living right & preaching straight & continue to teach & train others to do so & have our sights set on winning the lost & making disciples for Jesus - not for a denomination.
May 6th, 2006 at 10:36 am
Dear Also Jack of it
Thanks for your post. It brings back memories of a time when the AoG was a wholesome church movement in Oz.
But I’m also curious. Does the AoG Executive put any pressure on you to conform to the HS model (especially as it’s president is also the senior pastor at HS), or do they leave you alone to get on with it?
I admire your honesty and courage in speaking out.
May 6th, 2006 at 10:37 am
Hi Guys,
My intention in posting was not so that I could ‘lead the charge against all the injustices’ or become a ‘repository of wisdom’ for the multitude of questions out there; but rather I thought it timely to speak up and by doing so encouraging others (pastors) to do likewise.
I am pleased that we have now broadened the discussion and have begun to establish that not only is the problem far more pervasive (and complex) than at first thought, but now we have the opportunity to establish ‘strategic alliances’ out of which could come some real answers.
But please be patient, we all have a myriad of questions but I still believe that ‘out of the council of many comes wisdom’. I will continue to contribute, but please direct your questions etc ‘to the forum’ and allow all comers to chime in. Where it is fitting, I will try to respond to direct questions.
Lance,
The ‘coming out’ you refer to was deliberate, as you detected; this was my way of reaching out to a brother ‘in code’, so that you could choose whether to engage or not – mutual respect kinda stuff. I value your perspective; it challenges me, even though I may not always agree with you.
As far as ‘keeping the ba#$%ds honest’ goes; while I understand your argument, I think the church has become ‘secular’ enough without resorting to such means. I much prefer to believe that the Lord will discipline his own; though of course he may use a “Luther” to do it - anyone up for it?
And in answer to the many ‘coming out from among them’ arguments, I have thought and prayed long and hard about that; but I must confess, that I have a stubborn streak, and to abandon a once Godly movement to ‘the tares’ is not at all palatable. It would, in many ways, be easier to come from a position of outrage or ‘defending the faith’ etc. but such would inevitably amount to little more than mere ‘chest thumping’ and that doesn’t even take into account the possible damage done to the ‘young wheat’. (See Matthew 13:24-30 for some context). I would probably feel better (after the cathartic release) but at what price? After all it’s not about what I feel; it’s about honouring the Lord and his choices.
Personal vulnerability (within appropriate bounds) that points to Christ as the answer is my preferred ‘philosophy of ministry’; although it is at times very costly and (painfully) slow. I believe in honesty, integrity, personal responsibility and accountability. I am convinced that such things have more to do with ‘our authority or influence etc’ than our (often self-proclaimed) anointing.
In truth, Lionfish is right; the ‘tares’, ‘apostate church’ etc are here for the duration. So do we attack this ‘conglomeration of evil’ or do we help to strengthen the real bride of Christ? Hmm … so many questions…
James,
You’re right, I do know the guys that you are referring to (CBC days) and have had many conversations with one of them. Please read my above comments, and understand that I am not trying to bring about change in the AOG or any other denomination for that matter; that would be incredibly presumptuous of me.
Quite frankly it’s not my problem unless the Lord makes it my problem. My role, as I see it, is to fulfil the call on my life as directed by the Lord. Everything in me cries out to be released from the sin-ridden AOG leadership currently at the helm; but up to this point HE won’t let me go! Why? God only knows! He’s not telling me YET!
In the meantime, having endured a great deal of incredible personal and family anguish, I have been obedient and returned to the fray; and this, after three years of ‘living in the cave’ (i.e. out of ministry - by the way Elijah says hello!).
As for belonging, I belong to Christ and not to any man made institution; my allegiance is to him alone but I must serve in the field where he has planted me. Please do not presume to know what I should or shouldn’t do … that’s not helpful. By the way I haven’t chosen to stay (see above) I have chosen to be obedient … to the best of my ability.
Jack-of-it!
May 6th, 2006 at 10:53 am
Lance,
I can appreciate your sentiments, but greater legal regulation of the churches is not my ideal … I’d like to think we serve a higher power than the Attorney-General. The mess we’ve seen in Victoria regarding anti-vilification is a worrying case in point.
A true, Biblical, church doesn’t need secular regulations on how not to bully. I think our ‘rule book’ sets out some pretty decent guidelines.
May 6th, 2006 at 11:21 am
Jack-of-it: ” Please do not presume to know what I should or shouldn’t do … that’s not helpful.” You did correctly interpret my meaning; I was wrong and i apologise!
May 6th, 2006 at 11:25 am
The arrogance of some churchies - thinking they should be above the law and take special directions from God instead.
PZ, the church has demonstrated that it fails to self regulate. The law most citizens subject themselves to has developed over centuries and reflects the latest legal argument and discussion. The Biblical law you want is frozen back in the times of a primitive tribe. And you think the latter is preferable? You must be joking.
May 6th, 2006 at 11:48 am
DD,
Sorry if it came across as arrogant but I think you need to read my comment again.
I’ll try again … The Biblical laws a true church would follow would, of course, encompass the normal laws of decency and fairness that should exist in any group at any time. Harrassment, bullying, defamation etc are all wrong in a secular sense and a Biblical sense.
A Christian should always submit themselves to the Bible and the laws of the land.
Your comment that ‘the church has demonstrated that it fails to self regulate’ is a generalisation that I reject. As part of the leadership of my church, I know that we try to deal with all issues with grace and humility, constantly referring to the Bible, and, where required, theological documents and laws. A case in point is the recent adoption of denomination wide Child protection laws in order to conform with ‘best practice’.
I hope that clears it up.
May 6th, 2006 at 12:09 pm
How ironic that DD says:
The arrogance of some churchies - thinking they should be above the law and take special directions from God instead.
That is exactly what this site is encouraging people to do. “you don’t need church, just ask God what is right for you and do that instead”
I have found the majority of what is being posted here is so fake…you are becoming like those you are calling the problem. want an example…I read yesterday stories about how people were feeling like they were never allowed to have an opposing opinion and that if you asked any questions you would be kicked out. Well that is exactly what happened to me.
SO GO MAKE YOUR LAWS, GO START YOUR PERFECT CHURCH TAKE ALL YOUR LITTLE WOUNDED POSSE AND I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT YOU WILL BE THE SUBJECT OF A BLOG WITH PEOPLE COMPLAINING ABOUT HOW THEY HAD TO CONFORM TO YOUR VIEWS…. YAY, YAY, YAY, I AM SO GLAD WE HAVE FINALLY FOUND THE ANSWERS WE NEED RIGHT HERE AT THIS SITE.
May 6th, 2006 at 12:12 pm
James: Thanks mate!
May 6th, 2006 at 12:24 pm
From what I can gather, there is a widespread sadness among many in the AOG movement, including pastors, dismayed by the theology (or lack thereof) among the Houstonisation set, and the power-hungry and money-hungry way it is being implemented (the Salvation Army story fitting squarely with their recent exposed excesses of Employment Plus, which is effectively no longer run in many instances by Salvos, but is merely using the Salvation Army as a marketing brand name).
The answer to this from disaffected pastors however is perceived to be some sort of nostalgic return to a 1970’s or 1950’s AOG, where ‘colouring your world’ would involve all colours known to man at that time, brown, beige, and off-white…..and where people would be pulled aside for fucking swearing, drinking, burping, farting and dancing…..you know….all the stuff that sends you to hell in pharisee religions.
I don’t think Houstonisation and having 200 men in tuxedo’s giving red roses to women while signing Elton John songs is the answer, but neither is returning to the AOG of old, which successfully flew under the radar of Australian society for decades (well, I’d never heard of it ..in my first 20 years of life growing up in Geelong with no connection to the church. This is why it’s all only being reported on now, because literally no-one outside the church had heard of AOG until Hillsong started making headlines for all the wrong reasons.)
The good news is….if Houstonisation supporters of like mind are free to gather together and network and strategise, then I see no reason why disaffected AOG pastors and members can’t gather together to network and strategise, and re-claim the faith and way of Christ (not the AOG ideology and culture of the 1950’s to 1970’s) and discover how to relate it to Australians in the 21st century.
I think ‘Wayne’ is on the right track (though he be a pastor, and therefore, officially still classified as ‘human filth’….maybe ‘Wayne’ if you called yourself a Christian Ministry Facilitator or something, instead of a ‘pastor’, then we could get around the pastor=human filth problem)
May 6th, 2006 at 12:41 pm
“A case in point is the recent adoption of denomination wide Child protection laws in order to conform with ‘best practice’.”
But I would agree with Duck, that the only reason why the church is adopting those practices, is under the threat of litigation if the (secular) law is breached.
Churches theoretically should be standard-bearers and pace-setters in these areas, but the reality is, that they’re nearly always playing catch-up.
It is still legal for churches and Christian organisations to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation, because the churches specifically sought an exemption to laws that work remarkably well in the community…
I expect in 20 years, the church will start playing catch-up there as well.
May 6th, 2006 at 1:27 pm
Lance
The answer to this from disaffected pastors however is perceived to be some sort of nostalgic return to a 1970’s or 1950’s AOG, where ‘colouring your world’ would involve all colours known to man at that time, brown, beige, and off-white…..and where people would be pulled aside for fucking swearing, drinking, burping, farting and dancing…..you know….all the stuff that sends you to hell in pharisee religions.
How right you are . plus the sins of going to the movies, trying to engage with the wider society, going to university , mixed bathing , listening to popular music , yoga and watching Cliff Richard video footage ( well actually that might be a sin) .
The Assemblies of God in the past was an inward looking institution - obsessed with keeping the rest of the world out . If people wish to go back to that era good luck .
May 6th, 2006 at 1:36 pm
Singer asked
“Does the AoG Executive put any pressure on you to conform to the HS model (especially as it’s president is also the senior pastor at HS), or do they leave you alone to get on with it?”
Sure. They would like to see everyone just like them. BH loaded the exec with his clones & disposed of the ones that could offer an alternative. It was a bit like the Invasion of the Body Snatchers.
The constitution was changed so that the National exec chooses the state president & the state president then chooses the district president. Jobs for the boys all the way through.
Because the district exec deals with the grass roots of the movement they ensure the state & national flavour is “imparted. Bringing in national & state exec members to speak at district meetings (and paying them rediculous fees $2k plus, plus expences etc + love offerings) keeps the district leaders safe in their positions.
Credential renewals have now become credential reviews & they are making it harder to get credentialled if you havent read the recommended heresies (I mean books) and gone to all the hillsongish courses and know when to say “amen” at the right times. Success is based on being “seen”.
Many new works are “satellite” so the new churches are totally controlled by the borg like mother churches who make sure that everything is droning along properly and that resistance is futile.
However, having said all that, if you havent been brainwashed & taken over by the borg or the pod people that snatch your body while you are sleeping you can ignore them & simply get on with what God has called you do. As far as Im concerned, the Hillswrong mob dont even exist, I treat them the same as the JWs or the Mormons or who ever else that las lost the plot.
I must admit, I love it when we have people turn up & say things like “Im one of BH’s 100 kingdom people” & I say “we dont have that here”, or “whats that?” You never see them again, which is good. Anyone who pays $10k a year on top of every thing else for “privileges” & a ride on BH’s boat obviously hasnt read their Bible or must honestly think that purchasing indulgences is a really good idea.
Lance said:
“It is still legal for churches and Christian organisations to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation, because the churches specifically sought an exemption to laws that work remarkably well in the community…
I expect in 20 years, the church will start playing catch-up there as well. ”
I certainly hope you are wrong there Lance, thats about the only thing that I can think of that would make the present situation worse.
Lance said
“The answer to this from disaffected pastors however is perceived to be some sort of nostalgic return to a 1970’s or 1950’s AOG, where ‘colouring your world’ would involve all colours known to man at that time, brown, beige, and off-white…..and where people would be pulled aside for XXXXXXX swearing, drinking, burping, XXXXXXX and dancing…..you know….all the stuff that sends you to hell in pharisee religions.”
No, we dont need to return to the 70s or 50s, we need to return to the Lord.
We need to return to His standards & His word including a genuine work of sanctification which should also effect the way we speak & behave. I certainly dont see that as painting the world beige but is I had the choice between today’s AoG or that of the 70s or 50s Id gladly swap today’s for either.
May 6th, 2006 at 2:12 pm
To ALso Jack Of It
I would like to ask what you think is happening / happens internally when people start asking about / challenging the doctrine of tithing, the speaking circuit or ask for detailed financials.
Externally we are being stonewalled, Leaders refuse to dialogue or produce any positioning documentation on Tithing … what is happening within the walls of the executive - when people ask these questions. Obviously we are not the first - except that we can share information and sermons via the Internet.
What is their modu operandi ? There seems to be a consistent process when individuals have enquired at their Churches. Do AOG/WOF leaders have any training in ’stonewalling’ information on finances and teaching re finances …?
INFOMERCIAL
(We have something special coming soon exclusively for SIngnposts readers … A special guest commentator from the US and an authority on Tithing is to review the teaching by one of AUstralia’s foremost authorities on tithing. So keep tuning in!).
May 6th, 2006 at 2:31 pm
Okay, folks…..this is completely off the subjects at hand, but I need some immediate feedback (please). Since I have discovered SignPosts and decided not to abandon God and Christianity just yet (though, believe me, I was right there…..I was so, right there) I’m starting to desire a little Christian music again. Something about this blog stirs a little hope in me about God and the whole Christian religion thing.
For years, I lived on a diet of Hillsong, Vineyard, and Passion. It’s been about a year and a half since I went off that diet. So where do I go from here??! I know that Geoff Bullock is a great place to start, but do any of you have any other suggestions for good christian and/or praise and worship music?
May 6th, 2006 at 3:12 pm
Lance,
“But I would agree with Duck, that the only reason why the church is adopting those practices, is under the threat of litigation if the (secular) law is breached”.
WRONG. And again with the generalisations.
We (ie the churches I belong to, which is not HS or AoG) wanted something in place so that if the unthinkable happens, it is dealt with correctly - all involved are counselled, victims healed, perpetrators punished (by the authorities), those who don’t need to be involved kept out, etc, etc, etc.
Because it’s the right thing to do.
DD & Lance, I can see why you guys think like you do. I’ve been on this site for only a few days and have learned that compared to your experience of church, mine has been pretty easy and I have the blessing of being in a relatively ’sane’ church.
I guess we can all be cynical at times and the challenge is to keep our minds open. That’s why I hang around with Baptists AND Pente’s
May 6th, 2006 at 3:13 pm
Don Francisco is a great artist - i know his albums are old but they are good
May 6th, 2006 at 3:27 pm
TradingAshesForBeauty,
When I’m feeling low spiritually (more often than I’d like) I turn to the older hymns - Charles Wesley, Fanny Crosby, Ira Sankey etc. Some people have trouble with the music (eg traditional organ & choir stuff) but for me the lyrics are just, well, magic.
Koorong sell a line called ‘Hymn Makers’ that’s really quite good.