detoxing from the church
One of our threads has gotten into a conversation about the idea of detoxing from the church and whether Christian community is necessary for following Jesus. This was originally a comment there, but I have elevated it to create its own thread.
As someone who is involved intimately in the mission of an established church, I declare my bias. Somewhere on this site I have mused about the ideas of christians not attending church. I think that the idea of seasons, of needing a break and needing to detox after draining involvements is totally understandable and natural. But I struggle with the idea of a churchless faith as an end point.
As an example, we can say that forgiveness is a universally important thing for Christians and I would have serious troubles with someone arguing that forgiveness is not a necessary element of being a follower of Jesus. However, I can also accept that some people’s path to forgiveness (eg survivors of incest) is so long and complex that it might not be completed within this life time. Perhaps this is not the best analogy but I can understand people in particular circumstances finding that faith communities are just too hard, but I don’t think that you rule make from the experiences of those people in those situations.
I think as humans we need to be in community. I think that particularly in today’s society we have to appreciate in the power of the communal over the individual - in the context of a world where we are taught that each of us is the most important person in the world and that we control our own destinies. I know that churches can be dismal places and people, but they can also be (and often are) wonderful redemptive and inspiring communities.
I think that the gospels were indeed on about the church In John and Matthew particularly we see a whole range of models for the way that people form communities of faith or assist each other along the road. The first thing that Jesus did was to form a community of faith who travelled together with him. He taught us to pray communally to “Our Father”.
Finally, some of the things that people sometimes react to about churches are not in fact essential characteristics of the ecclesia. The idea of formality, demands, structures or even buildings are not essential to the making of a faith community. In fact some of the people commenting here are working pretty hard at reshaping and rethinking what it means to be church in Australian society these days.
Anyway, just some general thoughts and again not being at all critical of those who comment here that they are or have been on a break from institutional church. Just teasing at some of the edges of where those “breaks” creep towards more generalised statements.
May 6th, 2006 at 3:31 pm
Lionfish you said -
“We have something special coming soon exclusively for SIngnposts readers… A special guest commentator from the US and an authority on Tithing is to review the teaching by one of AUstralia’s foremost authorities on tithing”
Tell me more Lionfish! Who is this mystery guest commentator?
WIGGY
May 6th, 2006 at 3:34 pm
Trading Ashes…
I don’t really listen to much “Christian” music, but there’s a lot of music I find that I connect with spiritually, and I use a lot in the church services I run…
Ben Harper
Blind Boys from Alabama
Indigo Girls
Sarah McLachlan (esp Afterglow)
Moby
Peter Gabriel (esp the soundtrack from Rabbit Proof Fence)
U2
I can’t think of any more right now…there is a thread somewhere on this blog about fave music, books and films you might like to look at…
May 6th, 2006 at 3:39 pm
And I’ll second Ned, Don Francisco (I thought it was Francesco) has excellent songs. And I dig the 70s hairstyle too.
May 6th, 2006 at 3:41 pm
WIGGY,
Patience my friend. Patience.
May 6th, 2006 at 3:42 pm
Lionfish’s mystery guest american speaker is Bill Gates
May 6th, 2006 at 3:49 pm
bec
Any comments on Christine Caine on the Hillsong thread
and
You listen to U2 - I feel about bono the way many feel about HS.
Bono was thinking about buying a new boat for $24 million.
He says he is a christian and rants about world poverty - I cant help feeling he is a hypocrite when he is worth over 100 million
How can anyone justify that many millions?????
May 6th, 2006 at 3:49 pm
Thanks for the suggestions. I’ll check them out!
May 6th, 2006 at 3:49 pm
C’mon Lion, I can’t have anything?
Maybe a link or a last name - Something? Please?
WIGGY
May 6th, 2006 at 3:54 pm
ashes
Great worship by Terry Mcalmon
There are some great christian cds fron Ireland - ” Revival in Belfast”
Michael W Smith
Twila Paris
Steven Curtis Chapman
May 6th, 2006 at 4:58 pm
>>134. PZ Says:
>>May 6th, 2006 at 3:27 pm
>>
>>When I’m feeling low spiritually (more often than I’d like) I turn to the older hymns - Charles Wesley, Fanny Crosby, Ira Sankey etc. Some people have trouble with the music (eg traditional organ & choir stuff) but for me the lyrics are just, well, magic.
I like the old hymns also, and the reason they are ‘magic’ is probably because they are usually straight scripture, the Word of God, so you can’t go wrong. Which raises the question about a lot of HS and other music, if you studied the words, often it is not ’sound’, in a scriptual (theological) sense. The songs get in your head, they sound nice, catchy tune, but if the words don’t line up with scripture, …. what are we renewing our minds with ??
Michael W Smith
Celtic Praise & Worship
.. are good.
May 6th, 2006 at 5:13 pm
Lionfish asked:
“I would like to ask what you think is happening / happens internally when people start asking about / challenging the doctrine of tithing, the speaking circuit or ask for detailed financials”.
Ive always tithed because Ive wanted to. I figure that it is a valid Biblical principle that we can access according to our faith. I have always believed that it is beneficial, my own experience has been very positive to say the least. Thats just me, everyone else has to make their own mind up.
I couldnt care less if other people do or dont however, if they do, then I certainly dont want anyone giving/tithing begrudgingly or out of compulsion but cheerfully like the Bible says. I even say that before the bag is passed about but more recently we just have a box & if people want to they can put money in it, we dont even have an “offering time” or those dreadful pre offering sermonettes.
When visitors come we are often told how refreshing it is not to feel pushed or manipulated into giving & how sick of pre offering messages they are.
Oh, and we dont have those nifty credit card number envelopes or eftpos beasts in the church either. If people cant be bothered bringing money, that’s up to them. We dont announce who to make cheques out to either.
Further, we do not sell anything. Freely we have received, freely we give. If you want a tape or CD its yours. If you want a copy of the sermon notes, theyre yours, free. We have given away thousands upon thousands of tapes & CDs over the years.
If visiting ministry comes, they must be approved of God & not abusers of the flock otherwise our integrity is compromised. One minister did have some very modestly priced books that were very helpful but I still wouldnt let him sell them on principle. I bought enough books to go around & gave one to anyone who wanted one. No product tables/bookshops etc.
When ever Im asked about tithing, I tell the people its up to them. I can explain the principles but I clearly let them know its between them & God & none of my business. They should seek Him & obey what ever He tells them.
In all the years of ministry, Ive never counted an offering, or made a deposit at the bank and have never been a signatory on any account. I have never bothered to look see who gave what. Yet there has always been more than enough, not only for our own needs but to help an aweful lot of people.
As far as the exec goes, I have no idea on what they say about the issue. I feel that they definitely want every assembly to gather as much money as possible because all dues, district, state and national are a percentage of the assembly’s income. I know that there is no way you can demand a tithe as some do. Ive even heard one “minister” say that tithing is essential to salvation on the basis that theives do not enter the Kingdom & those who withold the tithe rob God. Blatant heresy. That was an AoG man too.
No one has ever asked to see our accounts or have asked me what Im paid. Our books are squeaky clean and could withstand any audit & be found legal and ethical. Im sure the reason that I have not been asked is because the people see that the money is used wisely and there is no excess. Integrity can be smelled as plainly as hypocricy.
Ive spoken openly to the congregation about the “speaking circuit” & how we will never have a part of it. Guns for hire with reciprocal arrangements. Ive spoken in a good number of places but always in “poorer” churches & have never asked for anything, have never had an offering taken up for me & have often refused payment. Further, Ive never accepted payment for a wedding or a funeral.
Im not making myself out to be anything special, Im not, because I know an aweful lot of ministers from all denominations that play the game straight down the line, no fudging. I get some fellowship within the AoG but most with ministers from outside. There seems to be a remnant of true Christianity in many denominations & those are the ones that I am proud to call my brethren.
Sorry for the long answer.
May 6th, 2006 at 5:46 pm
Ned…Christine Caine?? not sure what you’re referring to, but i’ll go look over there…
meh…I happen to really admire Bono, from what I know he’s an admirable person…but even if I didn’t admire him, I’d still get a lot out of U2’s music - I don’t have to like someone to think they’ve got something good to say…
Ben Harper isn’t a Christian, and he comes across as a complete idiot in interviews (”y’know, I like, I just like allll religions”) - but his lyrics mean lots to me.
May 6th, 2006 at 6:01 pm
Have any of you ever considered the countless thousands of people that have been positively influenced by the very churches and leaders you claim to be “human filth”? Did you ever consider the possibility that maybe your ideals and expextations could be wrong? Do you think that you are the only ones in the history of the church to suffer the indescretion of imperfect leaders? You are all so concerned about your own experience, that you’ve created an idolic religion of your own based around your hurt… can somebody please show me that one in the bible… No i didn’t think so! here’s one that is in the bible, Matthew 18:21-23,
“At that point Peter got up the nerve to ask, “Master, how many times
do I forgive a brother or sister who hurts me? Seven?”
Jesus replied, “Seven! Hardly. Try seventy times seven. ”
I know this comment won’t last long, as it would appear that any comments made other than those of incessant whining and church bashing are omitted! So much for the right to express how you feel, is that what this is all about, How you feel… do you think Jesus felt like being crucified?
I’m not saying that churches and their leaders are perfect. God never asked them to be, but God did ask that we treat our leaders with respect. To honour them, pray for them, serve them. I guarantee i could match any church horror story you’ve got, yes even the almighty Geoff Bullock would proud. I’ve had plenty of opportunities to get all messed up, bitter and judgemental. I’ve cried my tears yes, but I have dealt with it. Why do you all feel the need to create another denomination?? I know that you until you can come to a place of humility and surrender under mighty hand of God, you will never see beyond your hurt. So it is almost in vain that i wright this. so in closing i will say this, When all is said and done you will not be judged according to what you have done, you will be judged according to what God called you to do. When you are honest with yoursellf, God did not tell you to run off and get all upset and start a little group with other people, that was a emotive reaction to a real situation, Do not be led by your feelings alone, Seek the truth… if you got this far thanks for hearing me out.
May 6th, 2006 at 6:33 pm
- I believe Lance was the one that used the term “human filth”, and he did so in jest (or at least in part). There’s lots of people on this board, not just one.
- Yes, I frequently consider the possibility that I’m wrong, and for that reason I maintain many relationships with people I strongly disagree with. You should heard the debates in my household! Robust discussion is a good thing, accountability is a good thing.
- No, I don’t think I’m the only person to have suffered - in fact, I think I’ve barely suffered at all. I speak up because I see what is happening to those I know and love, and indeed those I don’t know (ie the voices on this board, many of whom I have never met). Injustice prevails because good people stay silent.
You sound a lot like my housemate in this post - she says ‘Bec, I’ve hurt like this too, I’ve cried like this too - these people just have to get over it.’
I disagree with her, and I disagree with you.
This pain is unnecessary. Nothing is gained by it. Nobody should have to “just get over” abuse. If you spend some time reading this thread, and others, you will be shocked by what has occurred. There is no minor bitchin’ on this board - the occurrences documented by Geoff Bullock, Jane, Singer, and the AOG pastors now posting here are more than that. They point to something frightening, something insidious.
May 6th, 2006 at 7:43 pm
70×7:
These people help many people …?
Get a grip … this is the world’s dodgiest cash-cow. Atleast Hickey is now selling some tangiable product that can be used as a paperweight when your expensive investment in erroneous teaching does not work.
https://www.mhmin.org/donate/FCP2006_2.htm
Seek the Truth. As you say.
May 6th, 2006 at 7:55 pm
Maralyn did not invent that idea, I did!
Who can forget my life size poster with the extended hand and my best prayer grimace - or - the shower cap with the hand of blessing!
Maralyn Hickey is a copy cat.
May 6th, 2006 at 8:04 pm
Also Jack of it; Tithing is not the issue! Not to me at least. The real issue is to do with controlling leadership who have not been leaders at all but bullies and overlords who have exploited the sheep to their; even sacrificing sheep to their “vision”. Though, not necessarily knowing the harm they are doing … deceiving and being deceived. Tithing, double tithing, first fruit offerings … are all just symptoms. Our reaction against tithing is an external manifestion of our rage against having the freedom that is in Christ being stolen away. I think you realise this!
Where indeed are the shepherds?
May 6th, 2006 at 8:10 pm
“Where indeed are the shepherds?”
Usually in small churches that dont play the Christian top 10 each week.
May 6th, 2006 at 9:07 pm
Jack of It you said this -
“…Ive always tithed because Ive wanted to. I figure that it is a valid Biblical principle that we can access according to our faith…”
Mate - what a crock. You can’t be serious. A VALID BIBLICAL PRINCIPLE? Since when?
Can you show me one scripture Jack where New testament believers are encouraged to tithe? Dude you are so far off track it’s not funny.
Tithing is as much a ‘valid biblical principle’ for belivers today as building an ark, engaging in animal sacrifice, sewing tassels onto the corners of their clothing and abstaining from ‘unclean’ meats.
Please, take your VALID biblical heresy elsewhere, you are way off track bro…
WIGGY
May 6th, 2006 at 9:16 pm
Jack of it you said this -
“…Further, we do not sell anything. Freely we have received, freely we give. If you want a tape or CD its yours. If you want a copy of the sermon notes, theyre yours, free. We have given away thousands upon thousands of tapes & CDs over the years…”
For this I SALUTE YOU Jack.
Wow, I am impressed immensly by this. Seriously, I really am.
I think your tithe doctrine is way off the track but this I salute…
FYI Jack I am an ex staff member of CCC and they don’t give anything away for free. Even if you pay top dollar for a conference they will still take up an ‘offering’ at least 3 or 4 times in the space of a 2 day conference. It’s quite ghastly…
Good to see some churches are adhering to the ‘freely received, freely give’ mandate of scripture - well done
WIGGY
May 6th, 2006 at 9:20 pm
“Ive always tithed because Ive wanted to. I figure that it is a valid Biblical principle that we can access according to our faith.”
Also Jack of it, there is another valid Biblical principle you can access right now: Cash in all your assets and transfer the balance to my bank account: “Give to everyone who asks you, and don’t ask him who takes away your goods to give them back again.” and “lend, expecting nothing back” (Luke 6 30 & 35)
I am offering you my bank account details. If you are really on fire for God, Jack, you must act immediately while this offer lasts.
May 6th, 2006 at 9:27 pm
Hey, I’ve offered before to give a deposit when you post your bank account details on the web… you know I’ve offered vast wealth from a Nigerian bank account. I’ll need your password of course to make my generous deposit. Can you let me know your current account balance so can verify it’s really your account? (I also have extensive funds from winning a Spanish lottery that I’m happy to contribute)
May 6th, 2006 at 9:31 pm
Janet, in your case, could you send the proceeds by cheque?
May 6th, 2006 at 9:33 pm
Touche. (Sorry, I just can’t resist!)
May 6th, 2006 at 9:39 pm
I should also add… you’ve probably noticed by now I am not a strict literalist with every verse in the bible… I think the grand narrative and the principles that emerge from the scriptures carry more weight than a “proof text” here and there. The “proof text” approach has been successfully used to justify abominable practices like slavery in the not too distant past… I think biblical interpretation needs to approached with considerable wisdom.
May 6th, 2006 at 9:43 pm
Ok Donald & Wiggy,
You win. Im just like the rest of them. Human filth or something wasnt it?
Damned if you do & damned if you dont.
Note though, that I said “I” meaning for “me”.
I did also explain that I have no expectation on others & they should make their own minds up.
Kind of thought that fitted into Romans 14?
Over & out
May 6th, 2006 at 9:59 pm
Jack of it c’mon mate, don’t give up so easily. I never suggested you were human filth did I? Nay, I did not. I simply pointed out your tithe heresy but I also congratulated your ‘freely give, freely receive’ ethos you have going at your church.
I’m not quite sure how you can maintain the freely thing whilst simultaneously pushing a tithe doctrine though… Care to explain?
I’d be interested in hearing you out…
Btw, Don wants your money too - he is serious about the bank transfer.
WIGGY
May 6th, 2006 at 10:18 pm
“…The “proof text” approach has been successfully used to justify abominable practices like slavery in the not too distant past…”
Tis very true Janet. The facts are that ‘the sum of thy word is truth’ (Psalm 139.17) and also that ‘no scipture is of it’s own private interpretation’ (2 Peter 1.20)
Modern day Pharisees say it’s all about context. CONTEXT they scream - it’s gotta be about CONTEXT.
Hmm - ok then
“God is LOVE” (John 4.16). But remember Janet, God is love ONLY in, context, context, context…
“God is SPIRIT…” (John 4.24). But only in CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT. Take God out of His “context” and He is no longer spirit, or love, or truth…
Is this how the apostles understood the words of the Old Testament?
By using the CONTEXT principle?
How about the very first Old Testament scripture quoted in the New Testament?
“Now all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold a virgin shall be with child and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is God with us” (Matt 1.23)
Was this scripture really written about Christ as Matthew says it was?
Is that the context in which we find it?
Let us check the context. Today’s method of scriptural interpretation teaches that the examination of the context is the primary rule for understanding the Word of God.
This verse (Matt 1.23) is quoted from Isa. 7.14.
It certainly does not follow today’s commonly accepted rules for scriptural interpretation.
The context shows that this statement is addressed to King Ahaz, the king of Judah.
To the natural undiscerning eye, there is nothing here to connect this to the birth of Christ. Ahaz was concerned about the conspiracy by the northern kingdom of Israel under king Pekah with Rezin the king of Syria against Ahaz. What possible sign would the birth of the Messiah some 480 years later be to Ahaz? The need (the CONTEXT) was an immediate urgent concern.
Yet Matthew, without explanation or apology, applies this verse to the virgin birth of Christ. The second chapter of Matthew also contains prophecies which appear to be taken completely out of context.
It tells of the wise men coming from the east to Jerusalem searching for “the king of the Jews” (Matt. 2.2)
Herod, after inquiring of the chief priests and scribes, tells the wise men that the prophets say the messiah is to be born in Bethlehem. “And he sent them to Bethlehem and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when you have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also” (Matt 2.8)
The wise men find Christ, worship him, present him with presents, “and being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way” (Matt 2.12).
After the wise men depart, “the angel of the Lord appears to Joseph in a dream saying, Arise, take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt and be you there until I bring you word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him” (verse 13)
Now we come to our next out-of-context prophecy; notice: “And when he arose he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son” (vs. 14 and 15)
This was a quote from Hosea 11:1 which reads: “When Israel was a small child, then I loved him and called my son out of Egypt.”
In context, Hosea is simply saying that as Israel was being called out of Egypt, they were in the process of departing from God: “they sacrificed unto Baalim and burned incense to graven images” (vs 2)
Still Matthew once again, without explanation, applies this verse to Christ’s return from Egypt. Surely we would wonder WHY DOES MATTHEW NOT EXPLAIN HIMSELF?
You see Janet the CONTEXT argument is totally flawed. I can give you many, many examples of this.
WIGGY
May 6th, 2006 at 10:31 pm
Janet also consder this - What was given the disciples “…that they might understand the scriptures?” It was, as demonstrated time and again, a principle of scriptural understanding that defies the context oriented reasoning of virtually every Christian denomination or seminary in the world, whether Catholic or Protestant.
Let me demonstrate this application by one apostle in particular.
In Acts 1, the disciples are gathered in the upper room awaiting the gift of the Holy Spirit. (verse 15)
“In those days, Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said…(verse 16) Men and brethren this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.”
Peter says the scriptures from Psalms he is about to quote were “by the Holy Ghost” speaking of Judas. (verse 20)
“For it is written in the book of Psalms, let his habitation be desolate, and his bishopric let another take.”
Now this verse, (Acts 1.20) is nowhere to be found in Psalms as quoted here. It is actually a conjunction of two separate Psalms with many Psalms in between.
The first part is from Psalms 69.25
David in this Psalm is simply asking God for protection from his enemies. (verse 1) “Save me, O God: for waters are come into my soul. (verse 13)…my prayer is unto thee, O Lord…(verse 14) Deliver me out of the mire and let me not sink: let me be delivered from them that hate me, and out of deep waters. (verse 18)…deliver me because of mine enemies. (verse 19)…mine adversaries are all before thee”
In context, this is all about David’s enemies.
But Christ had “opened (Peter’s) understanding, that (he) might understand the scriptures” (Luke 24.45)
Peter now understands about whom this is actually speaking.
Now in the verse of which Peter quotes only half in Acts 1.20, which is Psalms 69.25, “Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents”, he left off the “and let none dwell in their tents”
The last half of Acts 1:20 is quoted from Psalms 109.
The inspired heading declares this “A psalm of David…”
In verse 2, he says “…The mouth of the wicked…are opened against me” From verses 2 to 19, David calls down curses on HIS enemies.
Verse 20 says “Let this be the reward of MINE adversaries”
But Christ only days before had opened Peter’s understanding (Luke 24.45) “…that they might understand the scriptures”
Armed with this new “understanding”, Peter borrows only verse 9 out of this chapter of Psalms, throws it together with the first half of Psalms 69.25 and concludes that all these experiences of David are actually referring to Christ.
Where did the apostles then get the “understanding” that allows such “out of context”, “prooftexting”, “you can go anywhere with that” approach to scriptures?
They got it from Christ Janet -
Luke 24.45 - “Then opened He (Christ) their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures”
WIGGY
May 6th, 2006 at 10:34 pm
Wiggy:
I already have. Post 145.
I dont “push” tithing on anyone. Never have & never will. I dont care if they do or dont.
I dont judge anyone for not tithing, why do you judge me if I do?
One man eats meat another doesnt, same with wine. Its between you & God & nothing to do with me - cant see that as “pushing”.
It really has me beat that people want to die on this hill of tithing when there is a world of lost sinners that need to hear the good news.
I totally object to the manipulation & sheep abuse of the modern “church” & have often put myself in harms way when rebuking shonky shepherds who are nothing more than a pack of wolves.
There will never be a perfect assembly or a perfect pastor or someone with perfect doctrine but there are plenty of good men who do their very best to get it right for the Lord they love & cherish.
I could imagine it now…. “What a shame Ethel, I though we had found a perfect church, BUT>>>>>> the minister actually thinks its OK for him to tithe if he wants to. What a shame”.
Here’s another funny thing. You say my tithing “doctrine” is way off track” yet you dont even know what I believe or why. All you know of my “tithing doctrine” that you say I should “take elsewhere” is that I do tithe and I expect no one else to, I believe they are capable of making their own minds up & I dont care what way they go.
I seriously dont give a hoot as to what they put in the plate. What is so off track with that?
You know what? When it comes to subjects that are not essential to salvation, I really dont care too much. I think there is plenty of room for grace.
I speak in tongues, I believe there is great benefit in that but if you dont agree, I dont care, we can still fellowship & respect one another. Its not essential so to me, it doesnt matter but if you want to blackball me for speaking in tongues, thats your choise.
If we as Christians spent as much time sharing the gospel with the lost as we do bickering about stuff that doesnt matter in the context of eternity the world would be evangelised by now.
Me & my “off the track doctrine” have gone elsewhere now.