detoxing from the church
One of our threads has gotten into a conversation about the idea of detoxing from the church and whether Christian community is necessary for following Jesus. This was originally a comment there, but I have elevated it to create its own thread.
As someone who is involved intimately in the mission of an established church, I declare my bias. Somewhere on this site I have mused about the ideas of christians not attending church. I think that the idea of seasons, of needing a break and needing to detox after draining involvements is totally understandable and natural. But I struggle with the idea of a churchless faith as an end point.
As an example, we can say that forgiveness is a universally important thing for Christians and I would have serious troubles with someone arguing that forgiveness is not a necessary element of being a follower of Jesus. However, I can also accept that some people’s path to forgiveness (eg survivors of incest) is so long and complex that it might not be completed within this life time. Perhaps this is not the best analogy but I can understand people in particular circumstances finding that faith communities are just too hard, but I don’t think that you rule make from the experiences of those people in those situations.
I think as humans we need to be in community. I think that particularly in today’s society we have to appreciate in the power of the communal over the individual - in the context of a world where we are taught that each of us is the most important person in the world and that we control our own destinies. I know that churches can be dismal places and people, but they can also be (and often are) wonderful redemptive and inspiring communities.
I think that the gospels were indeed on about the church In John and Matthew particularly we see a whole range of models for the way that people form communities of faith or assist each other along the road. The first thing that Jesus did was to form a community of faith who travelled together with him. He taught us to pray communally to “Our Father”.
Finally, some of the things that people sometimes react to about churches are not in fact essential characteristics of the ecclesia. The idea of formality, demands, structures or even buildings are not essential to the making of a faith community. In fact some of the people commenting here are working pretty hard at reshaping and rethinking what it means to be church in Australian society these days.
Anyway, just some general thoughts and again not being at all critical of those who comment here that they are or have been on a break from institutional church. Just teasing at some of the edges of where those “breaks” creep towards more generalised statements.
May 6th, 2006 at 10:36 pm
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#148. bec Says:
May 6th, 2006 at 6:33 pm
You sound a lot like my housemate in this post - she says ‘Bec, I’ve hurt like this too, I’ve cried like this too - these people just have to get over it.’
I disagree with her, and I disagree with you.
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I agree with you bec, I have no idea where Christians get this attitude, it’s a phrase from the world, certainly not from the Bible. Jesus always extended himslef to the hurting and needy people, … ALWAYS.
Regarding Jesus’ parable of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10:30-37, it was the Samaritan (of a race most hated of all people by the Jews), had shown the kindness of a neighbour, while a priest and a Levite had denied it to their own countrymen.
I don’t want to be like the priest and Levite, who did NOTHING to help the Samaritan, I’d prefer to be like the Good Samaritan. The Samaritan not only showed kindness and much compassion, but went to great lengths to help the man who ‘fell among thieves’. Wow, look at what he did …
10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
10:34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
10:35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
10:36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
10:37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
To “70×7″, …. which one are you ?
May 6th, 2006 at 10:42 pm
Jack of it - Point taken mate.
No need to run off though… We are all a pretty friendly bunch really (well most of us, Don just wants cold hard cash via bank deposit).
If we disagree on a few things that doesn’t matter does it? If the debate heats up a little we’re mature enough to deal with that aren’t we?
Stick around mate, I’m sure you’ll fit in just fine…
Sorry if I have caused offense btw
WIGGY
May 6th, 2006 at 10:48 pm
Wiggy, I said nothing about context… I talked about understanding the main threads of the biblical narrative and the principles that emerge from it.
I will however mention CONTEXT now… which was DD’s quote from Luke 6. Frankly, I’ve given enough money to people who have asked for it, only to find later I’ve subsidized the drug trade! Taking the scriptures seriously does not necessarily mean taking every word literally. Much as I appreciate the sincerity of those who might attempt to gouge out their eyes or chop off their hands.
May 6th, 2006 at 10:58 pm
“…Taking the scriptures seriously does not necessarily mean taking every word literally. Much as I appreciate the sincerity of those who might attempt to gouge out their eyes or chop off their hands…”
Beautiful Janet - so true. If only more Christians would see that the ‘letter kills but the spirit gives life’ (2 Corinthians 3.6)
I had a serious debate with some others on a topic ‘Does God put a stop to bad things?’.
I am a universalist Janet and DO NOT believe in a literal interpretation of the phrases ‘Lake of Fire’ from Revelation and the ‘Fires of gehenna’ from Matthew… Alas though, my posts fell on deaf ears. Many were unprepared to accept that perhaps these phrases were not literal.
Oh well…
WIGGY
May 6th, 2006 at 11:13 pm
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168. WIGGY Says:
May 6th, 2006 at 10:58 pm
I am a universalist Janet
================
Universalism is regarded as a cult, see http://www.carm.org/universalism.htm
” Universalism is the teaching that through the atonement of Jesus, every person who ever lived will ultimately be saved. It is a relatively small movement in America. But this error can have some serious ramifications. Does the Bible teach that everyone who has ever lived will be saved? No. It doesn’t. Find out why here.”
May 6th, 2006 at 11:34 pm
Oygle:
What on earth are you on about? I would not hesitate to help someone if they were lying half dead on the side of the road, but we’re not talking about that. What is intersting though is your estranged analogy likening yourself to the Good Samaritan, in the context of helping somebody suffering from spiritual abuse! Tell me, how are you helping them recover?
So… Oygle: Jesus was compassionate yes, yet at the same time very ruthless in his approach the worlds way of thinking… I’m thinking of a story of a rich young man Matt 19:16-28, This guy was tight, he’d said and done all the things according the law, but Jesus went after the attitude of the Heart. When Jesus asked him to give away everything his true colours were revealed.
OMG, Jesus just told that guy that he couldn’t follow him unless he gave everythin away…. wah wah wah He’s so mean, It’s not fair, how can they do that? The thought of it costing him, finances, family, pride, dignity… it’s just not worth it. Honestly i would really like everyone here to start telling me their stories about how unfair it all is, please I really want to hear them… all the excuses in the world couldn’t save the rich young man.
In response to the disciples question “Who than can be saved?”
V26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
He then goes on to tell them the awesome reward that awaits those who pay the price to follow him. You can GET OVER IT! Just like the Disciples, the Apostles and everyone else still attneding church. God can help you! You keep running around telling your story to everyone else who’s got the same story, aint gonna do you any Good. Grow Up All Of You!!
Its gonna cost you something to follow christ, you’ve been conditioned by world, God wants us to be transformed by the renewing of our minds… If you genuinely wanted help and wanted to help others you would actually see that God uses all circumstances for good, we choose to either let it be a stumbling block, or a stepping stone.
I do not profess to have an infallible belief system, But i do Believe that God is Big, and if he’s telling me to move on I will - not when the pastor upsets me, or i am unfairly treated. Take a look at your tiny spec of a life in the light of eternity. People need to here about Jesus, Not your Whining about how lifes not fair.
May 7th, 2006 at 3:16 am
OK, ok, ok, let’s clarify whom is who.
Pastors who exploit people with their money-hungry dodgy theology are pond scum.
Pastors who act like pharisees (even if they’re well-meaning) to gay people..and are sons of the law and not sons of faith (via Galatians) …..are human filth.
Most pastors are human filth.
Some pastors are pond scum and human filth.
I have never met a pastor who is pond scum but not human filth, and a tiny percentage of pastors are neither pond scum nor human filth….but are too timid to stand up to pond scum and/or human filth.
Homer is just a skid mark..
….Now that we’ve cleared that up…
May 7th, 2006 at 3:25 am
Are gay people who act like pharisees (even if they’re well-meaning) to pastors sons of the law and not sons of faith (via Galatians) Also?
May 7th, 2006 at 4:02 am
Are gay people who act like pharisees (even if they’re well-meaning) to pastors sons of the law and not sons of faith (via Galatians) Also?
Not at all, because the underlying assumption is that no matter what pond scum and human filth do, their actions and beliefs - no matter how wrong, how distasteful, how sociopathic - are ‘covered by grace’ or ‘covered by the blood’..
See, even though many of you think Brian Houston, or Phil Pringle, or Pat Mesiti or any of the other scammer pastors are doing the wrong thing, and doing real damage to real people, and without contrition, you believe they are still going to heaven; thanks to the old ‘no-one’s perfect’ excuse-all.
You would still give them the benefit of the doubt that they are saved by grace through their faith (Christ’s righteousness imputed through grace by faith, not the law).
So since there is no condemnation in Christ (for pastors)…there is nothing I, as a gay man, can do to undo that.
So any of my actions or statements to pastors are essentially meaningless…a bit of pissing in the ocean if you like, where I feel relieved but it doesn’t change the ocean (just don’t swim near me..that’s all).
However.
For gay people, it is the reverse.
There is not the underlying assumption of justification through grace by faith, but an assumption of ‘justification through being non-sexual’ and therefore the condemnation by pharisee pastors IS meaningful and destructive…reinforcing the prevailing assumption that all poofs are going to hell.
I believe a gay person would only be acting like a pharisee, if they prescribed to another gay person how to conform to a gay cultural expectation (support the mardi gras, support gay marriage, vote Democrat……..you know…be a ‘good gay’..and you’ll be an acceptable gay person in the gay community).
I don’t like the Gay Mindset Police any more than I like human filth and pond scum.
The bottom line is…I think it’s unreasonable to initiate a Pharisee mindset in any culture, but I believe it’s perfectly reasonable to respond in a harsh way, if someone else is trying to intimidate you…or someone else with a pharisee mindset.
And part of that fending off process that I’ve found necessary, is a few pre-emptive strikes.
The harsh responses were how Jesus handled himself when he was out and about ..and I think it’s perfectly reasonable….
“Forgive them for they know not what they do’ didn’t apply in all circumstances, and I think the church has to be a little bit smarter about who it forgives, and who it challenges.
May 7th, 2006 at 4:30 am
70×7:
Man of peace and wisdom, you seem to think that people should just forgive and forget and move on … should Luther have done the same in the Reformations?
These are not ‘little issues’ people are protesting about. This intentional, sustained spiritual abuse by a cultish-denomination.
I will ask you:
A) “how can we trust spiritual leaders with teaching about things of eternal importance - if we cannot trust them to teach us properly about things of earthly importance such as money”.
B) “Why is their so much secrecy surrounding how the Contemporary Church Business model works – ie. the lucrative speaking circuit. Why are the Books not open?
C) “why do these guys leverage incorporations law for tax gain – yet do not comply with law by having an annual AGM or providing financials.
D) Why do People& Pastors such as yourself stay silent on these matters – are people are afraid to publicly speak out?
May 7th, 2006 at 4:32 am
70 x 7: Until you can adequately answer the above questions - stay out of the way. You are part of the problem.
May 7th, 2006 at 6:31 am
i thort also-jack-of-it presented a well reasoned defense of his position.
Wiggy, you came across to me as rather legalistic in your comments at #153. How bout we give him a bit of space to consider: “I figure that it is a valid Biblical principle that we can access according to our faith”. The this type of teaching is so ingrained, often from birth, that it takes some a long time to really stand outside their tradition and see, that even for themselves, that Jesus made us free men!
I get the sense also-jack-of-it is committed to not laying law on others. That will do me!
May 7th, 2006 at 8:34 am
Sometimes I feel like some who use this site are like circling sharks, looking for any opportunity to pounce and make a theological killing, so to speak. Wiggy, I suppose I must assume you meant well in your attack on tithing (would you have worried so much if “jack” had decided in his own mind and with a clear conscience to give away 20% of his income? 5%? 30%?)… but it was not the main point in a story of considerable frustration and pain. Leading to “Also Jack of It”’s post:
“If we as Christians spent as much time sharing the gospel with the lost as we do bickering about stuff that doesnt matter in the context of eternity the world would be evangelised by now. Me & my “off the track doctrine” have gone elsewhere now.”
I want to commend the “Jacks” for sharing of their story so openly… there should be more of it… I hope you don’t go away forever. Despite 7 X 70’s assertion, this is not a censored site so the theological nit pickers (is that harsh?) have just as much of a go as anyone else… but there’s lots of interesting dialogue that happens here too.
7 x 70… those who have been around this site for a while realise the allegations about gross financial impropriety in HS are serious and substantiated… these are not unimportant concerns. I don’t think anyone is trying to say there aren’t lots of good people at HS, but I don’t think Jesus was into the idea of Christian leaders being above scrutiny… they are particularly called to humility in fact (Matthew 23)
“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.”
Lance… I do think I understand where you’re coming from, but I still personally disagree with pre-emptive strikes… (Look at the mess in Iraq!!!!) In the words of Mammy in “Gone with the Wind”: “You catch more flies with sugar than vinegar”.
Whatever shuts down meaningful dialogue… whether abuse, sarcasm, shooting out proof texts like bullets, rushing to judgment… limits the opportunity for growth and learning and grace.
May 7th, 2006 at 9:50 am
Sorry some of the comments are a littl behind…
“The answer to this from disaffected pastors however is perceived to be some sort of nostalgic return to a 1970’s or 1950’s AOG, where ‘colouring your world’ would involve all colours known to man at that time, brown, beige, and off-white…..and where people would be pulled aside for fucking swearing, drinking, burping, farting and dancing…..you know….all the stuff that sends you to hell in pharisee religions.” (Lance)
I think, having grown up mainly in the AOG is how inconsistent the denomination is. 30 years ago we had the instruction not to do anything outside the Church, it being sinful. Now we have the Houston empire. What will be next? I guess, what I am trying to ask is how should this be viewed in line with another denomination that is more consistent with its beliefs and practices? I’ve heard a few points on both sides, but am interested in a few more…
“Many new works are “satellite” so the new churches are totally controlled by the borg like mother churches who make sure that everything is droning along properly and that resistance is futile.” (Jack of it)
Doesn’t this go against one of the AOG’s statements of each Church being run autonomosly???
May 7th, 2006 at 10:07 am
Janet & James good posts.
People (inl Wiggy) are not protesting against the teaching on ‘tithing’ just to be sharks though!
The teaching is not good news for the poor or people struggling with familes! It is erroneusly taught as an ‘obligation’ at the expense of Christian liberty.
I like the presence of the “Jack’s” here. I appreciate the tithing is part of the AOG mindset, like sabbath keeping is to an SDA. I appreciate the fact that Jack does not enforce it - it can be a Roman’s 14 type decision ie. Up to the individual and this is in alignment with Paul’s teaching in 2 Cor 9 “each person should give as God has purposed on his heart”.
People are rebelling against the Paul de Jong, Allan Meyer, Brian Houston, Riverview Church mindset (as per their ‘partnership’ agreement) that:
1. All Christians are under an obligation to tithe (regardless of circumstances)
2. The are Robbing God if they do not and will be cursed
3. They will only be blessed if they bring the whole pre-tax tithe into their storehouse (That Pastors Church>
4. St Paul was talking about the amount above the tith in 2 Cor 9:6 - so after you have paid your tithes then you can give to the Church tax-deductible trust account
5. If you donate above $5000 or $10000 into the tax deductible fund you get to join the veryimportantwealthyperson Kingdom Builders cluc … and get special recognistion from the Pastor - who you believe to be ‘an annointed man of God’ so this makes you feel really good on the inside … as if God himself has endorsed your wealthy lifestyle.
And what is going on in the background is Pastors exchanging these tithes for reciprocal time on speaking circuit for ‘unjustifiable amounts of money’
Pastors have teax-effective family comapies call ed ‘ministry accounts’ (ie. a ’second set of books’) that do not pay FBT, GST and income tax and distribute sizeable incomes and pay mortgage repayments pre-tax through these bodies …(in fact these Pastors are not living by the tough ‘pre-tax’ standards they set for their own people). They are getting rich and fat and going on propery buying sprees. Very little of this money is redistributed to the community. Detailed financials are not provided.
In fact Tithing as taught in the OT has ceratin caveats.
-It was to go to the Levites who were not allowed to own or inheit properties (preventing the Spiritual Leaders ammassing wealth)
-90% has to be redistributed to the ‘widow and the orphan’,
-There were Jubilee years where people did not have to tithe
-Only the wealthy had to tithe (not eveyone - poor, treades people etc)
The way tithing was taught and practiced in the OT is not the way that it is taught in the Contemporary Church! It is a lie, that leaders will not respond to our requests questions about! Sort of like the indulgences in the middle ages.
I welcome Jack & Jack, and their honesty. They apparently do not practice it like these Mega Church Pastors do.
70×7 I hope and pray that you will see the logic and reason behind this protest. Deceitfulness is should not be practiced in the Church - Pastors ammassing great wealth at the expense of their trusting but naive poor.
There is huge implications as “evil prevails when good men do nothing” .. and believe me this practice can only be termed as Evil.
Tithing is not good news for the poor…or struggling families or anyone - because it is taught deceitfully.
May 7th, 2006 at 11:00 am
James you said -
“…Wiggy, you came across to me as rather legalistic in your comments at #153…”
James I saluted Jack-man for his freely give, freely receive ethos in post #154 - that is to be commended and is quite rare in my experience with churches that teach or endorse ‘tithing’.
I should clarify something James, whatever someone chooses to give that’s fine but why call it a ‘tithe’. A tithe by implication is a set and stated amount and as you have pointed out time and again we are called to give freely.
Jack of it said that he tithed and endorsed it and I believe his words were that it was a ’sound biblical principle’.
Ok - maybe I’ll start a church and engage in some light animal sacrifice (y’know, just birds, sheep etc). No pressure for anyone else to get involved though but if I said that was a ’sound biblical principle’ then would that make it right?
Perhaps if I decided to build an ark of gopher wood - no pressure for fellow memebers to lend a hand of course - and claimed I was engaging in a ’sound biblical principle’… Would that make it right?
How are any of these suggestions different to tithing James?
All of them are outmoded practices that a NT believer need not concern himself with.
Can you see my point?
WIGGY
May 7th, 2006 at 11:45 am
Wiggy, if someone wants to tithe of their own volition and God has purposed it on their heart … or keep Saturday Sabbath, or abstain from certain foods (because their faith is weak) then let them do it (Rom 14).
They should not compel others to live by their own standards … and perhaps the term ‘tithe’ should be dropped - perhaps it should be 10%.
You and I both have an undertsanding of Grace and our liberties and freedom as a Christians. Some people don’t … they have to live by rules - because their faith is weak.
Though, there is no excuse for leaders and teachers to bring people under laws such as sabbath day observance, tithing etc. These teachers need to re-read Galatians… but they won’t becuase they know they will lose control and fear that they will lose $$$ (where is their real faith when they don’t trust God or people to give … hence their own faith is weak).
May 7th, 2006 at 12:24 pm
Wiggy and LF… I agree with you both on this… that generosity according to our means is what is called for in the new covenant, rather than a legalism. I still want to note my concern that sometimes new contributors get “pounced upon” over points of minor theologcial difference, and this not only discourages open discussion but can also offend unnecessarily.
May 7th, 2006 at 12:49 pm
Janet … agreed.
May 7th, 2006 at 2:16 pm
Hey Wiggy #180, i agree with you re the use of the word “tithe”. I also realised that you were trying to bring our attention to “… sound biblical principle …” which tithing simply is not - in fact, in Christ it is a very unsound principle, leading men back into law … a little leaven …
We do all need to realise that TITHING SIMPLY IS NOT NEW TESTAMENT; AT ALL, NOT ONE LITTLE BIT, IN ANY WAY …
I did think #153 sounded harsh towards someone who is proactive in not bringing others under law - hence my comment.
May 7th, 2006 at 2:49 pm
Hi Guy’s. I was just wondering, are any of the people here senior ministers or were senior ministers whe they began their ‘detox’?
May 7th, 2006 at 3:57 pm
Paul, just what is your point?
May 7th, 2006 at 4:02 pm
i was just wondering what rfange of situations people came out of. obviously there are people who served other leaders, i was wondering if there were any who were on the other end of the stick.
May 7th, 2006 at 4:26 pm
Hey Paul.
I was on staff @ CCC for about 4 years and also a 2IC at a CCC church plant…
It wasn’t until the church plant that I realised the damage this ‘tithe’ message was causing (amongst other things).
When you’ve only got about 150 or so in a church you get to know people and their situations pretty well and you see first hand the cause and effect of this deception.
WIGGY
May 7th, 2006 at 4:33 pm
Actually Paul I was often asked to do the ‘tithe’ message while in the church plant.
Y’know the funny thing? Towards the end of my tenure there I just stopped talking about tithing altogether. I came to a realisation it was deception… So, I just spoke on giving and I pointed out it need not neccesarily be money that God wants you to give.
How do you think that went down with the ‘Senior Minister’ Paul?
Not too well I can assure you
WIGGY
May 7th, 2006 at 4:36 pm
Hi Guys,
Wow, I had a wedding yesterday and Church this morning; and so much has happened since!
I’ve just finished ‘catching up’ on the posts I’ve missed. I now need to set some things straight:
Firstly Wiggy,
You attribute to me (in your posts #153, 154, 161, 162, 166, 180) comments made by ‘Also Jack of It’ – comments which apart from ‘tithing … as a valid biblical principle’, I would support.
I suggest that you take a little more time reading the posts before you jump in! You’ve obviously gone in half cocked and your ‘not-so-friendly-fire’ has wounded a potential friend and ally, so much for tolerance and grace! (BTW pastors too get hurt and carry wounds just like anyone else and sometimes respond ungraciously – I’m speaking for myself here not … ‘Also Jack of It’).
For the record, I (Jack-of-it: posts 102, 106, 120 and 125) do not believe in, practise or teach tithing (except where applicable in the Old Testament). (But I only came to that understanding three years ago after some detoxing, soul-searching etc).
‘Also Jack of It’: has given insights into the inner machinations of the AOG, something I thought may have been welcomed on this blog in the current search for truth etc.
Janet & James: Thanks for your well-reasoned analysis:
Whatever shuts down meaningful dialogue…whether abuse, sarcasm, shooting out proof texts like bullets, rushing to judgment… limits the opportunity for growth and learning and grace. (I couldn’t agree more).
I (Jack-of-it) decided to enter the fray to bring some balance and clarity as well as to receive some. Can we please keep it constructive?
Secondly Splat
You are guilty of the same error as Wiggy: Post 178 (not me mate … but ‘Also Jack of it’)
1. “Many new works are “satellite” so the new churches are totally controlled by the Borg like mother churches who make sure that everything is droning along properly and that resistance is futile.” (Jack of it)
Doesn’t this go against one of the AOG’s statements of each Church being run autonomously???
No, it doesn’t; but to answer satisfactorily I would need to elaborate on certain AOG procedural stuff i.e. at what stage does a church receive autonomy etc?
A thought: I have made a practice of first constructing my comments / replies in a word document and then after I’ve checked the facts, my attitude, my own initial reaction and perhaps an even more radical suggestion … prayed; only then do I ‘cut and paste’ onto the blog sight. Maybe this could be an aid to more constructive and meaningly dialogue? I apologise in advance if this seems to smack of ‘preaching’ or is perceived by some as patronising etc; that is NOT my intent.
Keep ‘em coming! Jack-of-it!
May 7th, 2006 at 4:42 pm
In our church we actually have a program for finding people jobs, and it is quite effective. We also have unlimted free counselling, a dirt cheap book shop which turs no profit, but everyone loves it. We also have a food bank, and we suplly chaplains into 1 highschool and a uni campus and a primary school. we run a job club in a very disadvantaged suburb and all this is very expensive. you being on staff at a church must know how little some staff members get paid. However, i have seen first hand that if people are not encouraged to give they wont. but they love all the free counselling, job clubs and foodbanks…obviously i am not talking about the ones who genuinely need them…why shouldn’t they be asked to put back into a community that has literally pulled them to their feet. i actually believe in tithing, because i have seen the fruit in my own life, i come from a very poor family, but now i am married and clean and have a good income….i tithe on it. as i understand it, a lot of the offerings made in the OT were not jsut for atonement etc. but they were also to feed the priests and maintain the temple. i know that i don’t tithe for my salvation, but there are still priests to feed and a temple to maintain.
May 7th, 2006 at 5:12 pm
is anyone out there?
May 7th, 2006 at 5:34 pm
Paul you said -
“…there are still priests to feed and a temple to maintain…”
Nay Paul - there is not.
Consider these verses of scripture -
“What? know you not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you…” 1 Cor 6.19
“The God who made the world and all things in it, this One being Lord of Heaven and of earth, does not dwell in handmade temples, nor is served by hands of men, as having need of anything. For He is giving life and breath and all things to all” Acts 17.24
“…You also (any one who is in Christ Paul) as living stones are being built a spiritual house, a holy priesthood…” 1 Peter 1.5
“But you (anyone who is in Christ) are an elect race, a royal priesthood…”
Paul please read some of the posts on ‘tithing’.
I’m sure you will see from there that tithing is not something a believer practices…
We give Paul, yes you may give 10% if you want but it’s not tithing Paul.
A tithe by definition can never be on money - it was only ever on agricultural products and livestock. The Pharisees were over the top about this and even tithed on their personal herb supplies…
James, hopefully that was not too ‘legalistic’?
Jack of It my apologies - surely you can see how we confuesed Jack of it with the other Jack?
WIGGY
May 7th, 2006 at 5:45 pm
Hey guys; guess what? My wife and i went along to the local Baptists today. The pastor (i only refer to him as “the pastor” as he does appear to be a pastor … as distinct from many who demand the title - different issue) preached from 1Cor. 1:17-2:5. The emphasis of his message was that Paul preached Christ and Him crucified; he didnt come with clever or elegant speech. It was a sound uncompromising message - and he didnt deviat from scripture at all … What tha!. In the light of what so many of us have endured and/or preached for so many years, wife and self were just sooooooooo refreshed. Just wanted to share that