detoxing from the church
One of our threads has gotten into a conversation about the idea of detoxing from the church and whether Christian community is necessary for following Jesus. This was originally a comment there, but I have elevated it to create its own thread.
As someone who is involved intimately in the mission of an established church, I declare my bias. Somewhere on this site I have mused about the ideas of christians not attending church. I think that the idea of seasons, of needing a break and needing to detox after draining involvements is totally understandable and natural. But I struggle with the idea of a churchless faith as an end point.
As an example, we can say that forgiveness is a universally important thing for Christians and I would have serious troubles with someone arguing that forgiveness is not a necessary element of being a follower of Jesus. However, I can also accept that some people’s path to forgiveness (eg survivors of incest) is so long and complex that it might not be completed within this life time. Perhaps this is not the best analogy but I can understand people in particular circumstances finding that faith communities are just too hard, but I don’t think that you rule make from the experiences of those people in those situations.
I think as humans we need to be in community. I think that particularly in today’s society we have to appreciate in the power of the communal over the individual - in the context of a world where we are taught that each of us is the most important person in the world and that we control our own destinies. I know that churches can be dismal places and people, but they can also be (and often are) wonderful redemptive and inspiring communities.
I think that the gospels were indeed on about the church In John and Matthew particularly we see a whole range of models for the way that people form communities of faith or assist each other along the road. The first thing that Jesus did was to form a community of faith who travelled together with him. He taught us to pray communally to “Our Father”.
Finally, some of the things that people sometimes react to about churches are not in fact essential characteristics of the ecclesia. The idea of formality, demands, structures or even buildings are not essential to the making of a faith community. In fact some of the people commenting here are working pretty hard at reshaping and rethinking what it means to be church in Australian society these days.
Anyway, just some general thoughts and again not being at all critical of those who comment here that they are or have been on a break from institutional church. Just teasing at some of the edges of where those “breaks” creep towards more generalised statements.
May 7th, 2006 at 6:26 pm
Glad to hear it James!
May 7th, 2006 at 6:59 pm
Glad to hear it James.
Paul - I like the sound of your Church Paul. The principle that needs to be applied in a believers life is not one of ‘tithing’ but one of generosity. I disagree with your views on storehouse tithing and the parellel between the Levites and that of modern day Pastors …
Anyway, over the next week - keep your eye on the “tithing’ thread and I have to expersts going Head-to-head on the tithing issue. I have just recieved comments back from the US and need to review it and need to put the final touches on it.
Possibly I will post it next Saturday morning so as not to become a distraction during the working week.
It will be entertaining, intellectually stimulating and spiritually enlightening - that’s my promise.
May 7th, 2006 at 7:55 pm
Jack wrote: “I suggest that you take a little more time reading the posts before you jump in! You’ve obviously gone in half cocked and your ‘not-so-friendly-fire’ has wounded a potential friend and ally, so much for tolerance and grace!”
Fair comment. I have a tendency to, Read a bit … skip a bit … read a bit, often resulting in not getting the full understanding of what someone is saying.
On reflection, and after re-reading a number of posts, i am rather suprised that the AJ, aka also-jack-of-it, so easily took offense at Wiggy. After all:
a) Wiggy did qualify #153 with #154 (although he was actually correct at 153 - even if it came across to some other James as a little legalistic - is this soft and tender enough for you wiggy
),
b) this thread is all about withdrawal from hurt and detoxing from the effects of years in bondage and those that imposed the injuries - a bit of oversensitivity is to be expected, and
c) IMO, one gets a bit of an idea about a pastor by the way he reacts when a sheep pees on his favourite pearl.
I have found folk on this blog to be somewhat “in your face”, but at the same time tolerant and forgiving. Appealing qualities, imo!
May 7th, 2006 at 8:48 pm
James said:
1. b) “this thread is all about withdrawal from hurt and detoxing from the effects of years in bondage and those that imposed the injuries - a bit of oversensitivity is to be expected …” Agreed.
One of the main reasons I joined this particular thread was because of the abuse that I personally have suffered over many years at the hands of the AOG hierarchy.
And once again that is not to imply that many pastors have not themselves been guilty of inflicting abuse on members of their church. Unfortunately, there are a lot of ‘wolves’ out their, who will experience a day of reckoning soon enough!
I simply believe that it is time to hold the perpetrators accountable; I have as I alluded to in earlier posts, done just that in face to face confrontations. However, since those efforts have resulted in me being ‘banished to Siberia’ and therefore minimised the intended impact; I decided to change tactics and expose such hypocrisy on this blog.
I too struggled with the whole ‘don’t touch God’s anointed’; maintain loyalty; don’t be negative or critical and a host of other conditions forced on the unwary by virtue of constant exposure to a repressive culture – again, the frog in the kettle stuff. I am amazed that as a reasonably intelligent, university and Bible college graduate I was so easily deceived and for so long.
Like many of you, I am still coming out of the fog; I’m still somewhat punch drunk and staggering around trying to find something or someone to believe in. My trust has been violated, I have been betrayed by those who I could reasonably expect to protect me (sound familiar) and I was the Senior Pastor.
At this point in my own recovery, I don’t have all the answers; and I too am prone to ‘shoot from the lip’; hence my suggestion in the previous post re ‘copy and paste’ etc.
I know only too well that: HURT PEOPLE … tend to … HURT PEOPLE! The hurt, I realise has to come out; I guess I’m sick of seeing people hurt and want (at times) to ‘snot’ the offender!! Bit of the pot calling the kettle …I know but there you go.
Pardon the ignorance … IMO? Not familiar with that one. Thanks James, I enjoy your posts and your perspective.
Jack-of-it!
May 7th, 2006 at 9:08 pm
Jack; “I too struggled with the whole ‘don’t touch God’s anointed’; maintain loyalty; don’t be negative or critical and a host of other conditions forced on the unwary by virtue of constant exposure to a repressive culture – again, the frog in the kettle stuff. I am amazed that as a reasonably intelligent, university and Bible college graduate I was so easily deceived and for so long.”
Ditto! It takes quite a while for the de-programming to take place & then you get a trigger word such as the ones James & I were bantering about such as “loyalty” & you battle the programming all over again.
In the words of the shampoo ad though:in regards to de-programming - ‘It won’t happen overnight, but it will happen” - so long as you keep walking with God & separating the truth of His word from the man made garbage that is screwing up so many lives.
I so appreciate you being here Jack.
May 7th, 2006 at 9:18 pm
James: Just got it! IMO … in my opinion. Lol.
Jane: Thanks mate, I intend to stick around!
May 7th, 2006 at 9:22 pm
Jack-of-it, please confirm you arrangements in handing your assets over to me. As a true Christian, you must acquiesce to any requests for money or goods. Please indicate whether you have given your worldy possessions to another, or, failing that, the financial arrangements you will be making to complete this transaction. Failure to act may result in you losing your place in heaven. Remember it is better to be poor now rather than spend an eternity in hell.
Once you have completed this asset stripping exercise, I guarantee it will place your own “withdrawal and hurt” in a much better perspective.
May 7th, 2006 at 9:29 pm
Donald Duck: “You quack me up!”
May 7th, 2006 at 9:53 pm
IMO (in my opinion) Jack, your post reveals you understand and can empathise with the experience of many others. As some of us can, to varying degrees, empathise with you.
You said: ” I am amazed that as a reasonably intelligent, university and Bible college graduate I was so easily deceived and for so long.” I wondered at this too; ive got a diploma in bible from CBC, top of my year in Theology, a research master’s degree (finance), i even taught at a low level in a university for a few years . I even saw the error, but never recognised it as, what i now believe it to be, “a different gospel”. As for ministry; i was a bit of a failure (although it is still the only true motivation of my heart) like i have been at a lot of ventures - although i dont know if many people realise im a failure because the Lord in His wonderful grace keeps working my stuff-ups to our good … i am so thankful to the Lord for He has kept me from shame. From the outset, even in bible colleg, i had a tendency to speak out against any teaching that did not seem in concert with the Scripture. That, combined with a fairly week personality, ensured my marginalisation - i was marked from the outset, “does not play well with others
.
I get the sense that many of the people contributing here are at least as erudite as myself; so how did we get sucked in, so far and for so long. I think your reference to the “frog in the kettle” syndrome (slowly introducing heresy while exploiting our desire to please the Lord) explains a lot of it. I think to some extent we also may have succummed to gnostic heresy; the belief that “the leadership” did somehow have some secret knowledge from God that had been hidden from us lesser ones. But there is one other explanation that i think may have some bearing also. We are the Lord’s servants and He is building His kingdom, and:
The Scripture says somewhere, “We comfort others with the same comfort wherewith God comforts us …”. (my paraphrase - from ICor1 or 2Cor 1). May i relate a question that came to my mind as i pondered this matter:
If you had been thru a less traumatic experience, do you think you could share the same degree of empathy with the wounded and scattered sheep; would you be as determined to nothing to do with the unclean thing again; …?
May 7th, 2006 at 9:56 pm
Thanks for the laugh DuckBoy
May 7th, 2006 at 10:23 pm
My understanding is that humans learn an enormous amount by socialisation… however much we like to think we are rational beings, we are social and emotional beings… of course we tend to absorb the values of those around us… especially those who seem to be key leaders. When churches create a culture of withdrawal from wider society, this is only intensified… we stop wrestling with “contrasting cultures” and tend to swallow the social norms of our church culture, however silly these may seem once we escape that culture. Of course we want to fit in, of course we tend to listen to and absorb the teaching of charismatic (in the conventional sense) leaders.
All the more reason for the biblical warning of James 3:1 “Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.”
Anyway… grace to you all who’ve been sucked in one way or another… it’s such a normal human thing! Grace to you all who are struggling to emerge from imperfect church cultures and rediscover the gospel of grace. And grace to you Donald, who keeps us entertained.
(P.S. Does anyone else think some of the people who make a big deal of the doctrine of grace sometimes fail to exercise “ordinary graciousness” toward others on this blog? Should this not be a natural outflowing of embracing the astonishing undeserved favor of God.. that we are especially kind and gracious toward others? Might it not be hypocrisy to affirm grace in theory and to lack grace in action? I’m perhaps exaggerating to make a point, and no doubt some will disagree with me… it’s a point to ponder anyway.)
May 7th, 2006 at 10:33 pm
James you asked:
“If you had been thru a less traumatic experience, do you think you could share the same degree of empathy with the wounded and scattered sheep; would you be as determined to nothing to do with the unclean thing again; …”?
Good question; in short the answer is no.
However, my background is one that impassioned me (very early on) to champion the case for the under-dog and to stick up for those, who for one reason or another were unable to do so for themselves. I won’t bore you with too much detail; suffice to say that I was one of those who endured something of a horrific upbringing involving among other things:
Repeated sexual abuse - aged 5 years (next door neighbour); again at age 15 years (trusted authority figure); a violent alcoholic dad and his (de facto) replacement … I won’t go on, I think you get the picture.
I am very familiar with the passage you allude to … 2 Corinthians 1:3-7; this has been an apt descriptive of my ministry; which apart from Senior Church Leadership has also involved many varied roles in Community Care type ministry leadership roles.
I am particularly concerned to help people overcome the ’victim mentality’ that so easily ensnares us and to become a healer/comforter as described in the scripture passage above.
So much of what passes itself off as Christian Counselling does little more than support people in their hurt rather than helping them to process it and apply the skills learned to not only continue to advance their own healing but to also help others to do likewise.
Now you have really pressed my button! Don’t get me started on this one!!
Jack-of-it!
May 7th, 2006 at 10:40 pm
Wow Jack of it… I’d be really interested to hear of how you see people can find healing from their traumatic experiences… it’s so common to see people trapped in the victim treadmill… it’s an awful thing.
Probably a topic for a PhD or at least a half decent essay… anyway, wish to flag my interest.
May 7th, 2006 at 10:40 pm
“Jack-of-it”, “Also-Jack-of-it”
Thank you for your stories and insight into the “machinery”, so to speak.
Do you mind if I ask what state you were in and who (if you think appropriate) the main instigators of the rotten culture are and who their “henchmen” (for lack of a better word) are?
No need to answer if you’re not comfortable, I’m just curious.
May 7th, 2006 at 10:40 pm
I just want to say - it’s great to have some AOG Pastors on board.
May 7th, 2006 at 10:43 pm
Janet: SNAP!
May 7th, 2006 at 10:49 pm
Apparently, my hand was just underneath yours on the card pile. Close call.
May 7th, 2006 at 10:58 pm
Jamesh you asked:
“Do you mind if I ask what state you were in and who (if you think appropriate) the main instigators of the rotten culture are and who their “henchmen” (for lack of a better word) are”?
No, I don’t mind … but first one for the ‘Duck boy’ … I was in the ‘state of confusion’ - in truth NSW!
Read through what my fellow AOG pastor “Also Jack of it” posted (#129) for context. Then go to the same author’s post #112 and you will begin to get the picture.
The rot really began to set in on a national level in 1997 when BH was elected General Superintendent. It’s been downhill since then along the lines of the above post … it’s not rocket science my friend … you just get those who you can control in positions of ancillary leadership at each level and you can control the whole shooting match.
It’s not a matter of being comfortable (although I appreciate your concern) it’s far too late in the day for niceties!
May 7th, 2006 at 11:03 pm
“The rot really began to set in on a national level in 1997 when BH was elected General Superintendent. ”
As one who was there - yes. The boys club quickly took all the State exec positions & some state conferences were faded out & people “encouraged” to attend certain larger ones in their stead.
May 7th, 2006 at 11:35 pm
Hi Jack, hi Jane, “The rot really began to set in on a national level in 1997 when BH was elected General Superintendent. ”
Ditto!
Jack, thank you for having the courage to share some of your pain. Just a thort on questions about your domicile; let us all remember that not every person who visits this blog are of good will toward us.
Hi Duck Boy
Im clearly tired, nite all!
May 7th, 2006 at 11:46 pm
J-O-I says: “it’s not rocket science my friend … you just get those who you can control in positions of ancillary leadership at each level and you can control the whole shooting match”.
Even at local Church level. I was amazed when I got a copy of the Articles of Association of Riverview from DOCEP (Department of Consuemer Employement and Protection) and noticed how autocratically the Governance model was structured.
It is a joke to say that people in the congregation are actually “Partners” - the term used in lieu of ‘Members’. Infact RV Partners have no rights at all - as it appears that power is invested into the hands of the ‘Trustee Members” and just who are they? The Church Board comprising the Senior Minister and his friends.
The term ‘Partner’ implies ‘equality’ - but infact the members of the congreation appears to be relegted to the status of ’spiritual consumers’ (customers).
My reading is that there is no need to have an AGM with the congreagtion or provide them with detailed financials - as this can occur at an AGM represented by ‘Trustee Members’.
The official spin from the Church is that it is based on a Presbyterian model of Church Governance … hmmm
Anyway, the Governance model across the AOG / Comtempory Church appears to be modelled like a mini-thoecracy - which is great for facilitating the aims Shepherding movements and preventing democractic challenges within the organisation.
May 8th, 2006 at 12:31 am
“The official spin from the Church is that it is based on a Presbyterian model of Church Governance … hmmm”
The key term is ‘based on’.
Really, it’s not that hard to publish and disseminate financial statements to whoever wants one. A majority of ASX listed companies have more shareholders than RV or HS have ‘members’ or whatever they call it.
In the modern age, a structure that’s not transparent is seen as having something to hide, and no amount of posturing or self defence will change that perception. People outside (and inside) the Christian community are looking for something to beat churches over the head with … there’s no reason to hand them the stick to do it with.
I haven’t even touched on the accountability aspect. From a corporations aspect, all boards (ie stewards) submit themselves to the owners (ie shareholders, members) and the AGM/Annual Report forms a chief part of that structure. (Yeah, yeah, I know that the whole AGM/Board process is somewhat shonky, but I was more interested in the model and rationale for it).
It’s interesting that Bill Hybels (Willow Creek) is speaking at Hillsong Conference this year. The last time I heard him, he spoke at length on openness in the running of the church, was happy to talk about his salary etc.
May 8th, 2006 at 8:23 am
PZ - Whilst Riverview Church will not provide detailed financials - I do have a copy of the financials for Hillsong. They have only one consolidated line for expenses “operating expenses’. It is impossible to do any meaningful analysis on the Church from these documents.
That’s the way that Scientology, err, sorry Hillsong wants it. A shady Business with a tax-exempt status.
May 8th, 2006 at 9:44 am
Not sure if I belong on this thread or not, since my experiences come from the other end of the theological spectrum, but after getting here via the HS article, and reading so many accounts of abuse in AOG churches, I just wanted to make the point that it isn’t only Houston type churches where people get hurt. Conservative evangelicals (read Sydney Anglicans, presbyterians etc) are equally capable of abuse, though it does tend to manifest around different issues. My worst experiences were in a house church, where the cold distant teachings got close up and personal. I was told repeatedly that the answer to my multiple issues of childhood abuse (sexual and otherwise) and very painful marriage problems was to read the bible more. (huh?) and made to know that I was the “problem person” for not allowing the leadership to run my life and solve me. In the larger church I have been snubbed and eyed suspiciously for being a woman who is more interested in grappling with theology than working in the kitchen or the kids’ ministry. I still haven’t made up my mind which is worse, HS style hype and fakery or cold rationalist “God only speaks through our exegesis” deadness. And in the midst of all this fakery I am battling my way through a theology degree (part-time) without a clue how God can use someone like me in a church that has no room for me, (50-ish and female, with no long string of”ministry-achievements, since I raised my kids and served in the background) yet sticking it out through a kind of quiet despair because i still believe it is God’s calling on the 2nd half of my life.
Not sure what point I’m trying to make, except the sickness is wider spread than one particular manifestation, and more than one brand of shepherd is adept at sheep-beating, though I agree that there are more temptations in denominations where “pastors” have more power.
May 8th, 2006 at 10:13 am
Hi blestpickle; cant see how your experience is any less traumatic or any less disheartening then the rest of us. Welcome, and may the Lord grant you encouragement thru dialog. I gotto go and do a bit; hope you are able to keep contributing! … often had my suspicions about house churches … get the sense that some are run by failed-meglomaniacs that are grasping at what power they can get. And as you experienced, with the potential to be even more destructive as you have no where to hide!
James
May 8th, 2006 at 10:26 am
Thanks James. You’re dead right about house churches. It’s easy (but not necessarily beneficial) to be invisible in a big congregation, but in a housechurch (or other small group) the first person to suggest that the emperor may lack a couple of buttons (eg “I’m sorry, but your solution isn’t actually helping me”) becomes the scapegoat that every dysfunctional system seems to need to keep itself going. The emperor is resplendent,you are told, it must be your own filthy mind that sees him as rather naked …
May 8th, 2006 at 10:36 am
Blest pickle,
I too am not one from a large AOG, or pente church, but have suffered abuse in a very small group. Mine is different again, as it was actually a missional, “edgy” church that slowly evolved to an aid/development agency in South East Asia that works with - guess what…. exploited and abused children. So while the “diector” was working his but off, trying to get this thing off the ground, he was simultaneously treating his staff and volunteers in melbourne very poorly. I am one of about four of five who have left in the last two years.. Now there is only a couple left, and I fear that the promises being made to develop projects for innocent kids in South Eat Asia, may not come to fuition.
I have very different experiences from most on this forum, but have found as Ive read the dialogues and posts that it helped lend more certainty to the nagging thought that the treatment I recieved was wrong…Hope you find a similar resonance..
May 8th, 2006 at 10:45 am
blestpickle, and yet we are amongst those that press on! I only bumped into this site, by accident also, a couple of weeks ago. I have found myself somewhat refreshed by dialoging with those whose experiences have been far worse than mine … like yours, methinks. Hopefully we can all help ease your pain as well. And may the Lord grant us all grace to find purpose and direction again (for those like myself who have lost it)!
Must hurry off; wife might find me blogging … and boy of boy, shes one scary girl
May 8th, 2006 at 11:06 am
Thanks guys. I certainly resonate with what I have read here — the presenting “issues” may change from one scenario to the next, but the methodology (and spirit) of abuse stays eerily the same. I still go to church, but warily and carefully, seeking to find God amongst his people in spite of the system, not because of it. I am much more cautious than I used to be, and my trust is not easily won. it is something of a juggling act to keep your critical faculties on red alert and yet try to remain open to God at the same time. Recently I have been asked to preach occasionally (this is a very renegade Anglican bunch for Sydney) and I do so with a trembling awareness of how easily the pulpit can be abused, how vulnerable the sheep are and how very much they need grace and encouragement to draw closer to the God who tenderly invites them. emotional manipulation and dry, pride-based intellectualism are both equally poisonous. One of my dearest friends no longer goes to church because of the corruption his wife has encountered working in Christian agencies — the fellowship of the dispossessed is bittersweet, but very wholesome. We are left with nothing but Jesus.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:50 am
Hi again blestpickle, my dear wife and joint heir in the grace of life, found identity with you, “I have been snubbed and eyed suspiciously for being a woman who is more interested in grappling with theology than working in the kitchen or the kids’ ministry…” (Yes, Yes, she had a read … and i got punished, not for blogging but for my comment about her … how is a husband supposed to win?)
Anyway, what part of “now there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, all are one in Christ Jesus” do so many believers not understand?
… or is that a condescending pat!
Having babies and being good keepers at home does not to my mind mean that that is all a woman is capable of achieving. My wife has, inter alia, a master’s degree … and although it may buffet my ego a little … she is every bit my equal! … I get hugs now
Pleased to hear you are still finding some fellowship and an outlet for expression.