detoxing from the church
One of our threads has gotten into a conversation about the idea of detoxing from the church and whether Christian community is necessary for following Jesus. This was originally a comment there, but I have elevated it to create its own thread.
As someone who is involved intimately in the mission of an established church, I declare my bias. Somewhere on this site I have mused about the ideas of christians not attending church. I think that the idea of seasons, of needing a break and needing to detox after draining involvements is totally understandable and natural. But I struggle with the idea of a churchless faith as an end point.
As an example, we can say that forgiveness is a universally important thing for Christians and I would have serious troubles with someone arguing that forgiveness is not a necessary element of being a follower of Jesus. However, I can also accept that some people’s path to forgiveness (eg survivors of incest) is so long and complex that it might not be completed within this life time. Perhaps this is not the best analogy but I can understand people in particular circumstances finding that faith communities are just too hard, but I don’t think that you rule make from the experiences of those people in those situations.
I think as humans we need to be in community. I think that particularly in today’s society we have to appreciate in the power of the communal over the individual - in the context of a world where we are taught that each of us is the most important person in the world and that we control our own destinies. I know that churches can be dismal places and people, but they can also be (and often are) wonderful redemptive and inspiring communities.
I think that the gospels were indeed on about the church In John and Matthew particularly we see a whole range of models for the way that people form communities of faith or assist each other along the road. The first thing that Jesus did was to form a community of faith who travelled together with him. He taught us to pray communally to “Our Father”.
Finally, some of the things that people sometimes react to about churches are not in fact essential characteristics of the ecclesia. The idea of formality, demands, structures or even buildings are not essential to the making of a faith community. In fact some of the people commenting here are working pretty hard at reshaping and rethinking what it means to be church in Australian society these days.
Anyway, just some general thoughts and again not being at all critical of those who comment here that they are or have been on a break from institutional church. Just teasing at some of the edges of where those “breaks” creep towards more generalised statements.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:50 am
Even though its terrible hearing the stories of blestpickle and urbanmonk -
I am glad they have at least revealed that pentecostals are not all evil.
Abuse in the church comes from other christian segments.
There are many decent pentecostals out there
May 8th, 2006 at 1:02 pm
“70×7″, my apologies if you have not understood me, or where I am coming from. My understanding of this post:
#147. 70×7 Says:
May 6th, 2006 at 6:01 pm
…. You are all so concerned about your own experience, that you’ve created an idolic religion of your own based around your hurt
was …, “sure we have all been hurt, ……. just ‘get over it’.
In fact, in a later post, #170, those words were used …
#170. 70×7 Says:
….GET OVER IT
so it seemed to me, that was the general synopsis of what was being said. To me, that lacked much MUCH compassion, hence the mention of the parable of Good Samaritan.
Parables are earthly stories with a heavenly meaning, that is why _that_ parable was used to illustrate what our response should be to any hurting people, be it physical, spiritual, emotional, etc. See http://www.rc.net/wcc/parable1.htm
Currently, I’m not ‘hurting’, but I would be lying if I said that I do not have compassion and understanding for people who are ‘detoxing’, which is what this thread is about. The compassion and understanding can only come from experiencing hurt ourselves; I can truly emphasise with people in that regard.
I don’t think the bulk of what is being said in this thread is about when the pastor upsets me or people whining, it is about genuine people, who are being open and honest about important issues, issues that are relevant to detoxing.
I think James has summed up a very important point here:
203. James Says:
May 7th, 2006 at 9:53 pm
I even saw the error, but never recognised it as, what i now believe it to be, “a different gospel”.
.. which others have mentioned as ‘dodgy theology’, etc, and this is an issue which concerns me a lot. If the sheep are not being feed the right food, (false doctrines in some cases), this will surely result in ‘weak Christians’, and so ‘the church’, in a corporate sense, are not as well equipped when the storms come, and certainly not as well equipped to help the needy and suffering.
Also of course, if the Word of God is being compromised from the pulpit, what are the flock being taught, and then, what do the flock go and ‘tell the world about Jesus’ ?
Frightening !!
It seems “a watered down gospel”, is at least, part of the ‘problem’.
Again, “70×7″, my apologies if you have not understood me, but more importantly, my sincere apologies if I have not understood you.
May 8th, 2006 at 1:04 pm
Janet (and Jamesh) Re: “… I’d be really interested to hear of how you see people can find healing from their traumatic experiences… it’s so common to see people trapped in the victim treadmill… it’s an awful thing”.
Tall order … I don’t want to hijack the thread but in response to your question; I’ve put together a general outline. Bear in mind that there is no set formula, no cure-all panacea; just a lot of hard work; grit your teeth kinda dogged, determined faith and perseverance.
OK here goes:
1 Born Again
2 Receive assurance of above – deal with any blockages here – unworthiness etc. etc
3 Work through forgiveness – Others, yourself and God (NB God didn’t sin but you held him responsible for … (fill in the blanks) … and you need to release YOURSELF from this through the mechanism of forgiveness)
4 Pray for, and believe that, (in his time) the Lord will heal and that healing is progressive – if you get a miracle fantastic, but they are rare.
5 Bear in mind that some things the Lord doesn’t heal (or only partially heals) but grants you the grace to sustain you and often uses this to bring glory to himself as he uses you to heal others! (2 Corinthians 1:3-7)
6 Understand that the ‘pain’ of healing is sometimes worse than the original hurt – you sometimes get worse (it feels that way) in order to get better – but don’t give up
7 Keep a journal of your progress (even ‘backwards’ progress is OK - this should be seen as ‘consolidating’ the previously received measure of healing – testing it if you like)
8 Remember to thank God for your healing each day – not a magic formula but guards against what I refer to as ‘Stinking Thinking’ which eats away at real faith!! Determine to ‘stay the course’
9 Enlist a GOOD friend to encourage you along the way – realise that this will also amount to kicking your butt occasionally – no codependency here please!
10 Read, understand and be willing to ‘live out’ Galatians 2:20
11 Then study Philippians 3:10-14. Break it down into component parts along the following lines:
a. I want to know Christ (more important than healing – don’t forget this – you’ll be tested on it, I assure you).
b. The power of his resurrection (comes only after death!) In this context; death to self!! Hugely important.
c. Fellowship of sharing in his sufferings – he is with you through it all and will not abandon you … DON’T be tempted to abandon HIM … you are being healed for a purpose beyond yourself
d. Becoming like him in his death (re-read point 5 above) he put us ahead of himself – and counted it as JOY!! (Attitude check)
e. The rest of these passages are pretty much self explanatory – refuse to give up.
12 Understand that the Christ-life (REAL discipleship) is about being as Christ to others. Put others first and the Lord will empower you accordingly – he needs all the genuine disciples he can get. Somewhere along the way you actually find yourself forgetting about your own need for healing and notice that you are being healed into the bargain!
13 Don’t be tempted to go back to the ‘old tape playing in your head’ you know the one that nags at you over and over again … “it’s not fair; it’s not my fault; he/she/they did it to me; I won’t forgive them;” and the many other variants. This point is absolutely crucial!!
14 I have applied this simple faith walk for many, many years and the Lord has brought me through:
a. Sexual abuse
b. Emotional and Psychological abuse
c. Chronic Asthma
d. Nervous Breakdown
e. CFS (Chronic Fatigue Syndrome)
f. PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder)
g. And more
15 I have witnessed a great many people begin this journey and prove the Lord faithful as together we simply put our trust in HIM
16 Please remember it’s a journey … determine to enjoy it as you serve the Lord.
BTW - I agree with Ned Flanders, there are many decent Pentecostal believers out there and abuse in its many forms is alive and well (?) right across the spectrum of church life (?)
May 8th, 2006 at 1:28 pm
LOL! I didn’t know being a husband was supposed to be about winning .. though it does seem to be a male preoccupation (naughty pickle! mustn’t be sexist! :>) The putting down of women either directly (as per SydneyAnglicans — ghastly, but at least they’re honest about it) or repackaging them as breathless Barbie clones who conquer through their sexual allure (a la HS) is a whole subset of abuse in itself. Even my uni-age daughter has noticed in the bible studies on campus how the hermeneutic suddenly changes when you get to the “women” passages of scripture .. truly scary .. and the kids .. bright intelligent tertiary educated young adults … all sit there and swallow it. I ache for how some of them are going to learn the hard way — I had to. but I don’t ever want to get so hung up on it that I forget that men get abused too … it’s always about power and control, us and them, “we are the approved of God and he’ll only bless you if you’re just like us” No matter what their theology, all abusive churches have in common the subtext that God only likes one kind of person (who, funnily enough, looks just like them) The inclusive grace of God is something no abuser approves of.
ned flanders, I agree. Abuse is not the product of one particular theological stream, it comes from sinful, selfish, power hungry human nature dressed in religious clothes but not truly humbled before God. And the pharisees were the spiritual fathers of them all.
May 8th, 2006 at 1:46 pm
“I didn’t know being a husband was supposed to be about winning” Well duh! Guess you do now, eh!
Thanks so much for the laugh!
May 8th, 2006 at 1:51 pm
Perhaps some background information is useful for the newcomers.
Here’s Signposts from 2003…literally in black and white…(and blue)
http://web.archive.org/web/20030406120154/http://www.signposts.org.au/
It was ‘a collection of random musings about life, news, politics and the challenges for the christian church in the new millennium.’
It was so upright and ‘Christian’ and ‘proper’…that one of the authors was referred to as ‘Danielle’.
“Gen X (this what we currently use)
Post-Modern
Emergent
Danielle suggested that as these words mean so many different things to different people that perhaps we could use a word that we fill with meaning.”
That was all before I came along.
I was filthy about everything Christian…and was so angry with my church experiences that I literally wanted to smash some Churchlands and Revenue Church drum kits with baseball bats.
I had also just found out what Christians REALLY think of gay people…and how pastors and congregation members had hid so much of that through all sorts of pretense and double-talk over the years.
My first memories here are of going Phil and Dan repeated sprays…and they for the most part just took it.
Mostly though, it was me just sounding off about the inept and deceptive way that Phil Baker operates ….and how I had no idea why him and other pastors and their churches don’t follow through what they claim to represent.
Since then, I discover there’s all heap of Christians out there who’ve been seriously burnt, and this has been the first opportunity they’ve had to speak about what they’ve experience, because the church culture doesn’t allow them to do that.
It just so happens that the abusive experiences raised so far, tend to revolve around certain leaders in the church…..Brian Houston in particular.
The only reason that specific abusive practices and leaders in the Anglican church …or any other church haven’t been discussed…is because they haven’t been raised…(apart from some interesting revelations by a Salvation Army member about the hijacking of Employment Plus by the money-hungry non-Salvo’s business types).
So Signposts has evolved from those black and white (and blue) days ….and maybe it’s not the standard Christian blog where people write…’……..awesome….Hillsong United rocks!!!!!!!!!!’…..or ‘I am seeking the Lord today in whether I should wear my cardigan or my purple skivvy’….. or……’today we were blessed with the arrival of a new termite we’ve adopted into our family because he has nowhere else to go. ….His name is Oliver..and I’m knitting a quilt for Oliver…and re-decorating the electricity meter box.’
But gee, aren’t we learning lots that we would not have learned anywhere else in Christendom?
And isn’t it good to finally have a website where you could invite Joan Rivers to discuss Christianity..and no-one would bat an eyelid when she says ‘where the fuck am I’…and starts hurling pink logies over her shoulder.
May 8th, 2006 at 3:31 pm
Wow…dont log on for a few days and BAMB the whole place explodes! Not one but two AOG pastors who don’t toe the BH line…as Lance said…Who’d a thunk it!
Very sad to see Also Jack of It jumped on so quickly…of course this from someone who thresw a live grenade at STEVE the moment he popped his head over the wall! I am very glad that Jack of It is still with us - welcome. I’ve got to say that the only good thing to come out of the logies was Joan Rivers and I didn’t even watch it!
May 8th, 2006 at 5:48 pm
I’ve been thinking about this ‘detox’ thing over the last few days. I wonder whether it’s more a case of detoxing from “control, falseness and deception” rather than detoxing from “the church”…
Just so sad that some churches are so filled with toxic substances…
Dan & Phil…I looked at your church website…I love your different ‘congregations’…not planning a church plant in WA by any chance???
May 8th, 2006 at 6:12 pm
Thank you for sharing, Jack-of-it… there is much to learn from those who have walked through pain and not been defined by it… instead found life through a really tough journey in the grace of God. I have a sneaking suspicion some just get attached to their pain, and don’t want to be healed…. but I’m not wanting to judge those who have gone through really tough stuff. I’ve been known to nurse a “sook” on far more minor matters.
Welcome blestpickle… I’m also a theological student, and one of the issues that gets me reved up is the marginalisation of women in some segments of the church. I’m thinking of getting a separate blog happening for women in leadership, so if you have any articles etc. you think we be good for this, it’d be great if you could email this to me… jwo09826@bigpond.net.au
In keeping with my earlier comments about graciousness… especially toward newcomers… I’m wondering if the prooftext police who think women in ministry are some kind of abomination unto the Lord could reactivate an argument with me on the “coming out of the closet” thread (archives, January 2004) and give blestpickle a bit of space?
Finally, I’m a bit concerned Donald Duck still isn’t getting the funds he desires! Maybe the theological zealots could interpret the passage from Luke 6 about giving for him to explain their miserly response. Those of a more humorous disposition might want to explain how he can more effectively fleece the faithful… maybe some tips on emotional manipulation will help him in his quest.
May 8th, 2006 at 7:09 pm
PJ,
thanks for your comments about Northern’s congregations. We see ourselves as being focused on the northern suburbs of melbourne.. so this may include NSW and QLD but not WA
May 8th, 2006 at 7:12 pm
Jack-of-it, also-Jack-of-it - were you there during the 1997 AOG Conference? What do you know of the vote for Superintendant that year and the associated shenanegans?
May 8th, 2006 at 7:36 pm
Lance (#246) - that is the second time this week that one of your posts has made me cry. What’s happening to you? Would you quit it with the sappy stuff?!
May 8th, 2006 at 7:50 pm
I agree Bec…Lance is shining…nice!
May 8th, 2006 at 7:54 pm
Jamesh: “Jack-of-it, also-Jack-of-it - were you there during the 1997 AOG Conference? What do you know of the vote for Superintendant that year and the associated shenanegans?”
I was there- was quite the eye opener with Benny Hinn as main speaker. Rallies at night were open to public- first time I had ever seen scrambles for seats & people literally fighting for seats.
Two superintendant options were presented from what I recall - Melbourne chap (Hill? name escapes me) who was considered part of the old “regime” & BH touted as the new forward thinking man to modernise the AOG
May 8th, 2006 at 9:16 pm
I am currently working on our Cutomer Experience Strategy for a secular Business … and came across this book at Koorong:
All Business Is Show Business
Every day your organization?and you?are in the spotlight. Your employees are performing and the audience?your customers?will love the show, hate it, or worst of all ignore it. Scott McKain has discovered wha tthe film, television, and music industries have known for years: to be successful, you must create an emotional link with your audience. Tell your story well. It will make you a star.Have a short, powerful, and unique high concept statement. It worked for Jaws and it will work for you.Practice the eight essential acts your customers want you to perform. Your employees are the stars of the show. Treat them that way.Create the Ultimate Customer Experience, and you will acquire amazing loyalty and unlimited referrals. “No matter what your business,” says Scott McKain, “you are always on stage. Make your performance one that leaves your customers with a feeling of Wow!”
[Publisher]
Every day your organization-and you-are in the spotlight. Your employees are performing and the audience-your customers-will love the show, hate it, or worst of all ignore it. Scott McKain has discovered wha tthe film, television, and music industries have known for years: to be successful, you must create an emotional link with your audience. Tell your story well. It will make you a star. Have a short, powerful, and unique high concept statement. It worked for Jaws and it will work for you. Practice the eight essential acts your customers want you to perform. Your employees are the stars of the show. Treat them that way. Create the Ultimate Customer Experience, and you will acquire amazing loyalty and unlimited referrals. “No matter what your business,” says Scott McKain, “you are always on stage. Make your performance one that leaves your customers with a feeling of Wow!” STATUS:N CPCCATEGORY:CLVCLFBUS
http://orders.koorong.com.au/search/details.jhtml?code=0785206086
Is the Church going to far …? Is Church supposed to be an ‘emotional experience’ for sale?
May 8th, 2006 at 9:28 pm
I must be so dumb — why is Koorong selling this? Is it even pretending to be Christian? I mean .. yeah .. I can see why a segment of their customers would buy it, but … (words fail me) may God have mercy on us all!!
May 8th, 2006 at 9:48 pm
Thanks jane… I appreciate that. Pretty sure it was Phil Hills of Richmond AOG (since retired) you’re talking about.
So there was something of a dichotomy in the AOG around then, hey? Any thoughts on that (anybody? Geoff?)?
May 8th, 2006 at 9:58 pm
I remember that conference well.
May 8th, 2006 at 10:03 pm
jack of it
I heard that some aogs are not happy with planetshakers in melbourne.
Many youth have left to join.
Any truth to that
May 8th, 2006 at 10:07 pm
ned, I know for a fact that many AOG churches in Melbourne are not happy with Planetshakers. So yes, much truth to that.
Also Jack of It - care to expand?
May 8th, 2006 at 10:07 pm
Hi PJ, you wrote: “I’ve been thinking about this ‘detox’ thing over the last few days. I wonder whether it’s more a case of detoxing from “control, falseness and deception” rather than detoxing from “the church”… ”
You seen right into the heart of the matter! I concur; its not the church per se! Well spoken PJ!
May 8th, 2006 at 10:26 pm
“why is Koorong selling this?” Our daughter informs me that Koorong is owned by unbelievers; apparently there is money in Christian literature. Dont know this for a fact myself, but daughter is quite switched on and her info is usually reliable. It may be they are “pretending to be christian” only in as far as it generates profits. Theyre clever tho; tend to employ christian staff so one might assume they were owned by believers.
As for, “I must be so dumb …” you know i cant comment on this. Very much want to, and I do remember your sexist jibes
… but, as i mentioned before, my dear wife reads all my posts …
May 8th, 2006 at 10:31 pm
Jamesh,
I dont like any of the rock concert/night club style youth events. They are a copy of the world as far as Im concerned. Ive heard some preaching from PS & there has been nothing wrong with it in that it calls the hearers to holiness, righteousness & purity & that is good. Youth alive was nothing but a sham & a disgrace under brothel man pat mesiti’s oversight. His gutter mouth & sexual innuendo was a disgrace.
I find all that moshing Christianity very superficial, but thats only my opinion.
I cant believe that adulterous wolf mesiti is credentialed again & even spoke at Sinsong. Oh, hang on, yes I can.
May 9th, 2006 at 11:37 am
James (and wife-of-James) what can I say? Dumb comes in so many different flavours we’re all suckers for one or more of them. Interesting about Koorong, I hadn’t known that, they’ve come a long way from 30 or so years ago, when they were the bastion of reformed theology. Every time I go there I am shocked anew by the resplendent array of religious junk. Some of us maybe need to detox from “christianised” consumerism as well as from consumerist religion…
May 9th, 2006 at 12:17 pm
248. PJ Says:
May 8th, 2006 at 5:48 pm
I’ve been thinking about this ‘detox’ thing over the last few days. I wonder whether it’s more a case of detoxing from “control, falseness and deception” rather than detoxing from “the church”…,
PJ, you have hit the nail right on the head, ….yes that is the very root of most of the problems.
May 9th, 2006 at 12:22 pm
263. Also Jack of it. Says:
May 8th, 2006 at 10:31 pm
I dont like any of the rock concert/night club style youth events. They are a copy of the world as far as Im concerned.
Yes I agree. To bring more of the world into the church is not what Jesus said. This article is quite good - http://www.jehoshua.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=4 , written about a year ago.
May 9th, 2006 at 12:30 pm
“why is Koorong selling this?” Our daughter informs me that Koorong is owned by unbelievers; apparently there is money in Christian literature.
Koorong is not owned by unbelievers - they are most defintiely Christians…I met them once a long time ago (I was 22 and am now 41) at a Christian Camp, I think they may be Baptist - but donpt hold me to it. Your daughter is incorrect - and James well sourced argument is preferable to unresearched innuendo
May 9th, 2006 at 12:39 pm
Blestpickle, we sense your warmth of spirit and find that a blessing.
James (and wife of James)
May 9th, 2006 at 12:46 pm
Greg, im willing to stand corrected. 22-41 is a long time tho. If they are still owned by Baptist believers, wonder what the explanation might be for some of the stuff they sell?
May 9th, 2006 at 1:34 pm
having books and items for as many traditions as possible perhaps? Dunno - I could be wrong - but I doubt it…I’m so seldom wrong that it’s quite frightening sometimes!