Hillsong article
For those that inquired about the Hillsong article which appeared in the Weekend Australian, the Australian (or more particularly the copyright owner) has agreed to permit us to publish the article on this site for everyone to access, for a fee about the cost of a pair of sneakers. This is unfortunately outside of our (non-existent) budget for this site. Could people either comment here or drop me an email if you would be willing to chuck in some money to make this available, or alternatively if you don’t think that it is worth it to do. Ta.
May 18th, 2006 at 9:53 pm
In the sprit of this blog & the amazing work it is doing telling the truth so that people can be healed, i wonder if anyone cares to discuss the issue of Youth Alive in the 90’s.
Will anybody answer to the fact that literally thousands of young people (unchurched, non-christian, sometimes street kids) attended mass alter calls, soft-hearted & open, maybe for the first time in their lives showing that kind of open vulnerability amidst emotionally manipulative hysteria, only to be “counselled” in a special room, given a paperback Bible 7 sent off to dissapear into the abyss?
Were all these kids followed up on? Placed in contact with local church communities even if they weren’t pente?
Does anyone realise what happens in a teens heart when they have a peak experience like that, expecting life to change & then - nothing happens?
I’ll give you a hint, their heart goes from soft to cynical hard & they don’t try again. What was that Jesus said again about Millstones & deepest oceans?
Who will answer for a generation who served as “fodder at the front” so that HS/YA could quote quantitative figures as markers for success with a completely “one night stand” attitude to these poor young guys who thought something special would happen now?
I know this is not the Ministry that AVB wanted it to be before it was passed on.
Does anyone know of ONE person who was saved through Mesitis YA Crusades in the 90’s who is still a solid Christian today?
How do i know all this? I went to YA twice or three times in my early twenties with non- christian friends whom responded to alter calls, out of interest on each occasion i asked them afterwards if they ever recieved follow-up calls to see how they were doing.
Not one.
I notice there is no YA anymore? Change of name? Why exactly?
May 18th, 2006 at 11:38 pm
Why this turning on EP? Seems to me that he is seeking to remind us that without repentance there is no forgiveness of sin. God commands every man everwhere to repent. Jesus went around preaching repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand.
To my mind, God stands ready to accept the greedy and the immoral and the homosexual offender alike; but His acceptance of us requires our acknowledgement of our sinfulness. If we confess our sin He is just and faithful to forgive us and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we are addicted to greed or to drugs or to homosexual tendencies or to immoral thinking; we’re alike … we need the grace of God that leads to repentance. But if we call “greed good” and choose to not only remain in greed but to embrace greed and refuse to seek the grace of God that leads to repentance but rather demand that God relax His standards to suit us … then surely there is then no further sacrifice.
If some church leader is addicted to greed an thereby exploiting the sheep for his own pleasures, is it right then for him to promote greed and the exploitation of hte vulnerable to satisfy his own lust to have more? Will not God hold him responsible for the damage he causes the sheep if he refuses to repent?
Yes, God will meet the greedy pastor where he is and accept him as he is; He will also command him to turn from exploiting the sheep to satisfy his own pleasures. And if he refuses to turn but demands of God that God call greed good! … There is then no further sacrifice …
May 18th, 2006 at 11:50 pm
I guess it is more about a disagreement regarding what is sin and what isn’t James. Not all of us here agree that being gay is actually sinfull - despite the repeated reminders that the bible supposedly says it is!
May 19th, 2006 at 12:20 am
Greg i get the sense that many of us interpret God;s hatred toward sin as His hatred toward us, the sinner.
As for what is sin, anything that falls short of the mark of that perfect holiness that is God, is sin. Mankind is so steeped in our sinfulness; there is layer upon layer of sin - i dont think we even understand what sin is. And i am certain we confuse sin with sins.
Jesus said “come unto me all you who are weary …” He calls all us sinners unto Him … We’re all the same, sinners. And we’re sinners because we remain bound by sin. But let us not call that which God calls sin; let us not call that good.
May 19th, 2006 at 1:58 am
My dear brother James….
You mean well, and are so close to the Truth, but not quite.
However…..
1. What is Sin? Sin is anything that Separates us from God; by that, I infer that sin is anything that we do or say that causes US to turn away from God (because of our guilt, shame, or rebellion). I don’t believe God ever turns His back on us……if your theology is different, then so be it.
We agree to disagree. I don’t believe that God is the wrathful bastard that many religious denominations have made Him out to be. The Holy Spirit and the Word paint a very different picture of God in my mind.
That being the case, I am a Homosexual and I don’t consider myself separated from God. My sexual orientation has not caused me to turn away from God, or to shrink away in guilt, shame or rebellion. So for Me, how can homosexuality be a Sin?
2. You said:
But let us not call that which God calls sin; let us not call that good.
Okay, this is a matter of Interpretation, you must admit. YOUR interpretation of the Word is that to God, Homosexuality is not good, so it must be a sin. That is not My interpretation of the Word. You cannot unilaterally declare and impose your interpretation of what the Word says upon others. That’s not your job and it is not your right. It is the Holy Spirit that reveals the Truth of God’s heart to us in the scriptures, not man’s flawed commentary, poor exegesis, and prejudiced interpretations.
By your standard, I could say that Slavery is good and God approves, because of the my interpretation of scripture, so it’s okay for us to go and find some other culture to enslave.
By your standard, I could say that women have no place in ministry, according to my interpretation of the Word and what is bad in God’s eyes, thus is Sin, so the church needs to repent and remove women from ministerial positions of authority (that is actually happening in the Southern Baptist Church in America today, btw).
It is not your place to decide for me what separates me from God - - I know what those things are and are not. That comes from the work of the Holy Spirit within me, bringing conviction when necessary, which leads to repentance. But thanks for your desire help me along by trying to “Point Out” what you think sin is and what you think my sins are.
And thanks for sharing Your interpretation of what you believe is good in God’s eyes and what is not. Another perspective is always helpful. But don’t try to impose your theology and belief system and interpreations upon me and expect me to adhere to the “gospel according to James.”
Did you ever consider that you might just be wrong?! Sure you may feel relatively safe in that respect since your opioins line up with the Christian majority, but what if…..just what if…….?
Think of the grief your soul will feel if you have one of those “Saul” moments. You know….remember when Saul was running around persecuting and tormenting the early Christians? His beliefs lined up with the other Jews of the day, so He thought it was good, and good in God’s sight, to join in the extermination process to get rid of them. But then…..Jesus and the road to Damascus. Saul was transformed into Paul. Ever wonder what he felt like when he had that ahh ha moment? He was flesh and blood like you and me James. Paul was just a man with the same emotional make up as us. I expect he was grieved beyond words or understanding when he realized what he had been doing.
I believe that it is better to err on the side of Grace and Mercy, James, but I’m not going to impose that belief upon you, forcing you to believe what I believe.
But you know what pisses me off? It’s when people, churches, or denominations take the position that “you have to believe what we believe (cause it just has to be right), otherwise your damned to Hell.” That fuckin enrages me that people are so arrogant to think they are going to speak for God. That they have been given the authority to pass judgement on others and decree the punishment of eternal damnation. FUCKIN Pricks.
Jesus said “Follow Me.”
Jesus said, “Love the Lord thy God with all that you are, and your neighbor as yourself. On those two commandments hang the prophets and the law.”
Jesus said, “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything “I” have commanded you..”
I don’t recall Jesus saying “follow what Others say about me.”
I don’t recall Jesus saying, “for the love of God, point out your neighbor’s sins, so they don’t go to hell.”
I don’t recall Jesus saying, “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations ………..teaching them to obey everything that “YOU” believe to be the truth (your interpretations) about God and Sin…..”
Why does this stuff only make sense to me? I feel like I’m on an island.
(those are rhetorical questions, Homer. Shut the hell up).
May 19th, 2006 at 7:52 am
James, you said “without repentance there is no forgiveness of sin”.
If you read the parable of the sheep and the coin in Luke 15 - both are stories illustrating repentance. They both finish by saying, “and so shall it be when one sinner repents.”
Tell me in the stories - who repented? In the first, obviously it is the sheep. What did it do to repent? In the second, obviously it was the coin. What did it do to repent? Both just let themselves be found. Both simply accepted their already acceptance.
A false gospel is one that puts conditions on acceptance. A person is already forgiven. The job has already been done. We just need to accept it. We just need to allow God to find us instead of resisting. The people of Galatians were trying to put conditions on acceptance and forgiveness, and Paul ripped into them.
May 19th, 2006 at 8:11 am
no-one here has shown anywhere in the bible where homosexuality is not considered sinful. Mere assertions are made without any corroborating evidence. This is not surprising because there isn’t any.
If someone doesn’t consider homosexuality is considered sinful in any sort of relationship in Leviticus then they are a fool.
The Hebrew is quite explicit and all encompassing.
the man in Corinth would have said the same as some here. I am sure he felt close to God yet he was quite clearly and explicitly disobeying God.
There is no difference with regard to homosexuality.
God is no more direct on any subject within the bible.
In essence what people are saying is you want god on your terms not his.
In essence you have no faith because like the man in Corinth you do not recognise you are sinning.
This is why Paul directs the Church to expel the man.
It is no different in this area. People who support homosexuality and who claim to be Christians are merely perpetrating a lie.
May 19th, 2006 at 10:35 am
You’re right EP, on all accounts.
Thanks.
May 19th, 2006 at 11:49 am
I notice there is no YA anymore?
Reve, I don’t know the status of YA, but they are currently updating their national and state websites - http://www.youthalive.org.au/
May 19th, 2006 at 12:18 pm
hey, I found a photo of Homer. I’m sure it’s him. It could be his uncle.
http://digitaltirade.com/Rants/archives/stuartSmalley.jpg
May 19th, 2006 at 12:35 pm
Hold the personal stuff, mate…..except when it is as funny as THAT.
May 19th, 2006 at 6:37 pm
TABY, be not despair and do not be disheartened! May the Lord grant us all His grace. I’ll not ask you to condone my sin; nor will i condone yours. Nor will i condemn you if your sin seems more “in your face” than mine … and im not suggesting it is. I dont know what events preceded your life to this point, but the Lord does. It has been my experience that the Lord in His grace has winked at much of my sin, methinks because he does understand the events that preceded in my life. So i’ll not deny you the right to same the same grace.
Actually, i thought Wiggy expressed this matter very well on another post, earlier today … ??? not sure. But in essense he was saying lets not justify the sin, nor let us judge the sinner lest we find ourselves being rightly judged.
May the Lord grant us grace that leads to eternal life. May the Lord change us first on the inside, then let the change be manifest on the outside.
As for EP 277; let us jump to judge, TABY’s life is not over and the Lord has not ceased His work within him, or me, or you.
May the Lord bless you!
May 19th, 2006 at 11:55 pm
(EP/Homer, if you reply to this post, I will ignore you. I no longer choose to engage in any form of discussion or debate with you on the topic of homosexuality or 1Corinthians 5. And by the way, Homer, I do know what your secret is).
Dear James,
Not to worry…..I’m not despairing or giving up by any means. I was just trying to get EP to shut the hell up, by agreeing with him in post 276. I figure if we all either agree with him on all points or ignore him, that eventually he will just go away. That’s my plan, anyway.
As Lance already noted, trying to have an adult discussion with Homer is like trying to reason with a door knob.
Now….you said:
Nor will i condemn you if your sin seems more “in your face” than mine … and im not suggesting it is.
First of all James, you ARE suggesting it is. The implication is that you consider homosexuality to be a sin (one of those “in your face” types), but you’re saying that you won’t condone it or condemn me because of it.
Well here’s the news flash: I don’t consider Homosexuality to be a sin. There you have it.
It is not your place to decide what sin is for me. Your interpretation of scripture (very poor, influenced by centuries of erroneous interpretation) says homosexuality is sin. Okay, fine. YOU shouldn’t be a homosexual in that case, otherwise you will be sinning, separating yourself from God, and your conscience will condemn you.
I on the other hand don’t believe that the Bible shows homosexuality to be a sin, so my conscience is clear. The “straight” part of the Body of Christ has taken a tiny handful of scriptures (what? 4 or 5 and twisted them to say what they want them to). James…..there are thousands upon thousands of scriptures in the Bible - - and the ones that speak to sin, morality and godliness are touched upon time and time and time again. Over and over and over. Isn’t it strange to any of you bone heads that the subject isn’t covered in a more comprehensive, black and white, “this is how it is” manner? but that’s a whole different discussion…..
For me, this is a non-fucking-issue, and I cannot for the life of me understand why it is the mission of so many “straight” christians to SAVE or CONVERT homos to heterosexuality?! Why?! Can someone Please, Please, Please, Please, Please explain to me why it is soooooooo damn important that homos be converted to heterosexuality or accept that they are condemned to hell??!! What a crock of shit.
Hear me. That is NOT what Jesus asked you to do. Go back and re-read your Gospels, and keep re-reading until you’ve gotten it right. And for God’s sake, stay the hell away from the Pauline epistles until you are fully grounded in the spirit and purpose of the Gospels (some of you straight Christians are friggin conflicted and don’t know whether to lead people to Jesus or wack ‘em over the head with your Bible, and tell them they’re going to hell if they don’t change their ways……geeze…..
Here’s what I believe about 90% of you that think Homosexuality is a sin:
Your belief is based purely upon what you’ve heard and been taught about what OTHERS believe; the same things you’ve heard all your life growing up - - that homosexuality is a sin. You have no chance of ever looking at those “clobber passages” on homosexuality with any degree of objectivity because you approach them with preconceived notions, preconceived interpretations and little to no knowledge of the history or culture surrounding the topic or biblical references.
Your belief is not based in any thoughtful or thorough study of the history of homosexuality or a legitimate, thorough exegetical study of the 4 or 5 scriptures that APPEAR to comment on the matter.
All scripture must be interpreted in the context of culture and the history leading up to that point in time in which the scripture came into existence.
If any of you knew a flippin’ thing about the earliest known origins of homosexuality and its history, then you might have a shot at understanding the Biblical references, what the references meant in relation to judaism or christianity, what they were actually saying and not saying.
For years, I’ve heard the poor argument that Homosexuality must be okay, since Jesus never addressed it. That’s wrong. HE DID. If you don’t know where it is, then you I suggest you go back to your friggin Gospels and read and re-read them again until you find it (note: I said above that in order to read, understand, and interpret scripture correctly, it must be done with a strong understanding of the history and the culture of the day. This applies. Jesus doesn’t actually use the words homosexual, fag, fairy, queer, lesbian, sissy, fudge-packer, etc. He does, however, most assuredly speak to the topic of homosexuality- - whether you choose to believe or acknowledge it will not change the Truth).
NOW……LISTEN UP…….
Geoff Bullock made a great suggestion a couple of days ago in post 246 listed above. I suggest we try to consider following his wisdom by leaving the subject of homosexuality alone. The debate and discussion is pointless. The GLBT community knows and has always known the position of the straight churches on the topic. Why continue to shout your condemnation. Just leave it be. The alienation being stirred by “the church” is just driving the gay community further away from God - - Jesus didn’t say to do that, so fuckin stop it! He said “to make” disciples (not to push them away).
(btw, if after legitimate study of the gospels AND history, and you are still unable to find where Jesus is addressing the subject of homosexuality, I give Dan and Phil my permission to give you my email address. You can contact me and I will walk you through it - - don’t expect a reply, though, if you email me in a couple of days…..cause I’ll know you’ve not searched it out for yourself, and I’m not giving you the answer that easily)
246. Geoff Bullock Says:
May 18th, 2006 at 9:47 am
I’m going to get shot down here, but, I’m going to say my piece, and Ill try to keep it short..unusual, I know. Gentlemen, this is a site where all are welcome. If, however, you feel it is your God given right to come here and try to save our souls from whatever irks you and your spiritual sensitivities, can I politely suggest you go elsewhere. Homer, and all who share your partial concepts of grace, somehow you seem to be able to hijack every thread and turn it into a discussion, no judgement, about gays. I sorry, I’m sick of it. I enjoy the broader discussion here. We know you disagree. We disagree with you. So please, why not just leave Lance and Reve and all of us alone. Leave us a link to your sites, and if we wish to get our souls bloodied we’ll drop by to say hello.
Thankful for His Grace, but not because I’m gay…
Ron Viers
USA
May 20th, 2006 at 6:01 am
Moving on then!
May 20th, 2006 at 2:10 pm
Taby,
Tell everyone about my ’secret’. you will end up looking as stupid as Lance did.
I do note you fail to produce any biblical evidence except the wonderful logic that Jesus didn’t address in specifically.
Well he address incest specifically either. does that mean incest is not sinful.
both Romans and 1 Corinthians confirm that Homosexuality is sinful.
all of lead sinful lives before coming to Christ.
We See in 1 Corinthians that homosexuals can come to Christ by stopping that part of their life.
you can’t come to Christ by denying sin which is the point of 1 cor 5 which I am sad to say few people understand on this blog
May 20th, 2006 at 4:23 pm
So Homer, since you can’t come to Christ by denying sin, what sins have you repented of in the past 2 years, and how have you become more Christ-like in that time?
May 20th, 2006 at 6:29 pm
brilliant post TABY.
I’m actually fascinated by the way Christians engage with each other on this issue (and others, but it’s even more obvious with this) - there’s basically a complete inability to engage - people’s words just slide past each other, bounce off one another, nobody’s listening…
I got pretty p**** off on this thread, as you’ll see - but I found it fascinating as an example of how Christians just cannot engage with each other on this issue (even me at times!)
http://cleave.blogs.com/pomomusings/2006/01/blogging_homose.html
May 20th, 2006 at 7:27 pm
I didn’t realise people in this forum were Christians. Who are you accusing of Christianity, bec?
May 20th, 2006 at 7:46 pm
bec
I believe you are describing Human nature
Many things we say about ther christians is due to our expectations of them
In reality christians are still humans and will still do all the human things that annoy us.
For some reason we dont have high expectations from atheists or devil worshippers - thats why we allow donald to have his say
May 20th, 2006 at 8:54 pm
mmmm…yep, this is human nature, but it’s also something associated with fundamentalism. the way christians talk about sexuality is quite similar to the way members of uni socialist clubs talk about the UN!!
May 20th, 2006 at 9:23 pm
From my observations, people of non-Christian faiths are far superior behaviourally to Christians.
I’d place Christians at the bottom of the barrel. This forum only confirms that.
May 20th, 2006 at 9:47 pm
Then why waste your time with us DD?
May 20th, 2006 at 10:07 pm
You’re ok, bec.
May 21st, 2006 at 12:02 am
DD
Are you referring to all the non-christian muslims who are currrently causing
massive problems on earth.
Whose got their blinkers on….duh donald
Gee who have i bombed recently…………duh
May 21st, 2006 at 9:03 am
No Ned - you left out a few. Don’t forget the folks in India who let the starving die because they cannot move in compassion on them because they are being punished for their former life’s errors. wouldn’t want to interfere with the Karma now would we?
May 21st, 2006 at 10:11 am
This is reminding me of that famous article written in the 70s (I can’t remember the title…anyone?) explaining why the ecological crisis is the fault of Christianity. Huh.
May 21st, 2006 at 10:28 am
Crisis - what crisis????
May 21st, 2006 at 2:14 pm
It took awhile, but then i remembered where id heard it before. Its normally stated something like this:
“Here is the “vision” God has given me, if you dont share the “vision” then no one is forcing you to stay.” or “God esteems UNITY above all else, if you are going to RESIST the “vision”, then please feel free to go and fellowship with other unspiritual people like yourself”, or “there is no room in the “vision” for people who insist on being DEVISIVE” ….
Anybody heard any of this?
Geoff puts it this way, Gentlemen, this is a site where all are welcome. If, however, you feel it is your God given right to come here and try to save our souls from whatever irks you and your spiritual sensitivities, can I politely suggest you go elsewhere
Just because the man is out of control does not necessarily mean the control is out of the man! Took awhile to recognise …!
May 21st, 2006 at 2:33 pm
Just to clarify a point: Just because a person is no longer in a position that enables them to control the thoughts and actions of thousands does not mean they are any less inclined to control the thoughts and expressions of others. Just making myself clear!
The post i was quoting from, #246 … worth a re-read! Of course, people who oppose control are oftimes muted … lets see what happens here!
May 21st, 2006 at 3:14 pm
If that suggestion makes Geoff a control freak, I’m a bigger, meaner control freak. I am really over the insensitivity of people informing others what they must do… and if one more person tells a gay they must become hetero or go to hell I’m going to give a big cyber scream. It’s not just the arrogance of thinking they have completely mastered every aspect of theology and biblical interpretation on homosexuality and the nature of salvation… it’s the sheer stupidity of assuming the people involved in this site have NEVER seen these proof texts trotted out before, and that their contribution alone will make the penny drop, change a sexual orientation, and rescue the gays from eternal torment. Did I mention the lack of humility exhibited in an obvious failure to read any of the arguments on this subject posted previously before going on the attack?
I’m with Geoff on this one… given the utter sensitivity and vulnerability of Reve’s comments that formed the context of Geoff’s remarks, a plea for sensitivity was entirely appropriate, in my not very humble opinion.