Hillsong article
For those that inquired about the Hillsong article which appeared in the Weekend Australian, the Australian (or more particularly the copyright owner) has agreed to permit us to publish the article on this site for everyone to access, for a fee about the cost of a pair of sneakers. This is unfortunately outside of our (non-existent) budget for this site. Could people either comment here or drop me an email if you would be willing to chuck in some money to make this available, or alternatively if you don’t think that it is worth it to do. Ta.
May 21st, 2006 at 6:22 pm
Thanks Janet ;o)
Oh man, i don’t know about you guys - but i find myself getting really flat around 5 or 6 each Sunday evening. Knowing that all those ppl still in christian community are going off to church & getting that warm feeling that my head now puts me out of reach from.
Could someone else please tell me they get that void-ache too? i need to connect with someone here.
Even when i went to MCC (The Gay Church) i found that i couldn’t get that same feeling even though i wanted to. I felt like it was just emulating the wider church but even MORE conservative than the straight church would need to be & that i was going somewhere that was just the “dregs” left over from mainstream. Plus they have their own problems, they don’t seem to care whether you turn up or not & keep forgetting your name (clearly not just a problem in large pento’s).
It’s funny, i feel closer to God than ever but in tune with that, more socially isolated than ever.
I got excited about seeing the Blackstump website & seeing the bands & speakers they’re preparing, then i thought…who would i go with? If i made friends there, how will they react when they know i’m gay?
How can i be proper friends with someone whilst holding back that disclosure? Or they might accept it but then it might cause problems between them & their more conservative or less open-minded friends?
I don’t want to necessarily go to a Gay Church, i just want to go to one where there are both persuasions & it dosen’t matter. Long way off, huh?
Another part of me says i must have poor self-esteem because i’m asking approval from ppl who can never give it & that i’m wasting precious time looking for it.
This may be true, but loneliness is loneliness & my brain can’t rationalize that away….
I really ache.
May 21st, 2006 at 6:43 pm
Reve: “I really ache.”
I really feel for you. You are in the wilderness between coming out of “churchianity” and finding other believers to really have community & fellowship with.
Hang in there brother. There is no easy answer other than to seek God & reach out as you are doing. He will bring people across your path - I know as that has been my husband & my walk the past few years as we found ourselves cut off from over 15 years worth of what we thought were friends. We had no-where to turn for fellowship, but God has blessed us with so many new friends & fellow pilgrims on the journey - and He will do the same for you too.
I’ve listed this website so many times that I seem a walking ad for it, but it truly blessed me & I know it will you too - http://www.lifestream.org
May 21st, 2006 at 6:44 pm
Dear Reve… I feel really sad along with you, and wish I could give you a real hug, not just a cyber one.
Which state do you live in? I can try to do some sleuthing… I have some good interdenominational connections.
This might sound weird, but I wonder if it’s worth hooking in and doing some study with a Catholic theological college… it’s the one place I can think of where they are likely to take the issue of discerning whether one has a calling to celibacy half seriously. I think Protestants generally sweep the whole thing under the carpet. (Doesn’t solve the immediate problem of the 6.00 pm Sunday blues alas.)
I will pray for you though… best I can do through cyberspace.
May 21st, 2006 at 7:47 pm
You’re lovely Janet, thankyou for all those suggestions…
Yes i could use a genuine hug from someone who “gets it”.
In fact i know a number of people that walk with God but attend no church, my Dad for one. I just struggle with believing it is God’s Will for me to feel so lonely & isolated. That this is the way he can communicate with me best.
And why is it that the only really decent people i meet that can be truly trusted are those who have no faith at all, but are just really decent human beings? What would God be teaching me there? That the corruption process begins once you ENTER the church arena?
I think i am going to check out Anthony Venn-brown’s “Free 2 Be” Group next time they meet as it’s particularly set up for Gay Pento’s. Maybe God will show me something there.
And i want to learn to really honest like you & Geoff & AVB & post my own real name here, to own my story & attach my name to it without fear or favour. As i’m already unacceptable for church membership by most christians (if i’m honest with them) i don’t understand why i still CARE what they think!
Surely once you know you’ll be rejected you should stop caring whether you have their approval/acceptance?
I guess that’s what GB was saying about still feeling like he was some sort of traitor when he did that interview about HS.
Why can’t i get clear that they are the ones that are wrong & it’s not ME that has the problem?
I wish i could just get clear one way the other. It’s the confusion & isolation that gets to me.
May 21st, 2006 at 7:52 pm
Janet brings out possibly the worst rationalisation made here.
no-one ever says a person has an ‘orientation’ towards murder, lying, adultery, stealing etc.
Why of all the sins we see listed in the bible does this hoary old chestnut come out most times.
Essentially it is human beings finding a way to rebel against God but saying it in a nice way.
Unfortunately it is complete and utter claptrap.
Homosexuality is a sin like many others. People indulged in it in Corinth but hey they were able to overcome it just as they were able to overcome swindling, drunkenness, greed and the rest.
Stupid that is rejecting the cross because you are not sinning which is just what the man in Corinth was doing.
But hey Paul did not understand his proof texts and he certainly couldn’t understand the biblical interpretation on homosexuality.
He was such an insensitive guy believing people had to repent of their sin to gain the benefits of the cross.
May 21st, 2006 at 8:17 pm
“AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
Yep, I meant it.
May 21st, 2006 at 8:19 pm
When is the “Book of Sins” by EP being published?
May 21st, 2006 at 8:37 pm
Is Hillsong and Revenue church allowed to sell CD’s …DVD’s …books…etc… on Sundays?
“Nehe 13:15 (NKJV) In those days I saw [people] in Judah treading wine presses on the Sabbath, and bringing in sheaves, and loading donkeys with wine, grapes, figs, and all [kinds] [of] burdens, which they brought into Jerusalem on the Sabbath day. And I warned [them] about the day on which they were selling provisions. 16 Men of Tyre dwelt there also, who brought in fish and all kinds of goods, and sold [them] on the Sabbath to the children of Judah, and in Jerusalem. 17 Then I contended with the nobles of Judah, and said to them, “What evil thing [is] this that you do, by which you profane the Sabbath day? 18 “Did not your fathers do thus, and did not our Elohim bring all this disaster on us and on this city? Yet you bring added wrath on Israel by profaning the Sabbath.”
May 21st, 2006 at 8:40 pm
one of the more sensible things Janet has written.
obviously had read and understood her proof text correctly
May 21st, 2006 at 8:43 pm
Yes….but a) they are “resources”, not just “products” thank you very much, &
b) we pick & choose our laws remember - we are not bound by the sabbath, don’t sacrifice animals, eat what we want, don’t circumscise every male born “in the house” - YET we tithe in a manner that Israel never did so that we don’t “Rob God”.
OMGosh - this is about the most cynical I’ve ever sounded in a post - the real jane emerges :-O
May 21st, 2006 at 8:45 pm
It apparently includes having a homosexual orientation, because Reve has shared how he is celibate and what a struggle this is. I feel like screaming a few more times… even those with extreme fundamentalist views would normally say that a celibate homosexual is not sinning… but EP at LP appears incapable of listening to and understanding anything anyone else says. Christ have mercy… other people with real feelings and experiences apparently don’t exist for EP at LP. He apparently doesn’t need to bother to even do a cursory read of these posts before grandstanding his opinions. The arrogance and utter lack of empathy this reveals is what brings me to screaming point.
AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
May 21st, 2006 at 8:45 pm
Lance why are you applying a sabbath rule to a Sunday? Hello? Hello Lance? Earth calling Lance.
May 21st, 2006 at 8:48 pm
er… that was a follow on from DD’s post… the comments are flying thick and fast.
May 21st, 2006 at 8:49 pm
I mean post 307!
May 21st, 2006 at 8:55 pm
Is EP refering to this text from Leviticus 18:22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman. That is detestable. and this one from Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
Can we clear this up once and for all. Please answer this question, EP. Do these verses condemn homosexuality or just particular sexual practices?
May 21st, 2006 at 9:01 pm
golly gee Janet I have only said homosexual practice as in action.
orientation is simply a weasle word.
DD homosexuality is a particular sexual practice!!
May 21st, 2006 at 9:06 pm
So when Phelps and Niles refer to the “homosexual lifestyle” they only mean sexual practices. Don’t they also mean a liking for pastel colours, a keen fashion sense, a penchant for driving girlie cars, drinking Stella Artois beer, visiting gay bars and expressing emotion publicly?
May 21st, 2006 at 9:32 pm
Lance why are you applying a sabbath rule to a Sunday? Hello? Hello Lance? Earth calling Lance.
I was originally going to ask Homer again why he’s posting on the Sabbath, but I thought I’d try a new stupid question.
Those churches can wank themselves silly if they like on a Sunday…(oh hang on…they already do that).
May 21st, 2006 at 9:35 pm
Lance, you’d better send a message out. “All Jews please note, the Sabbath has now moved to Sunday”.
May 21st, 2006 at 9:36 pm
This proves my point that you jump in to judgment without an empathetic attempt to read the whole context. Reve is celibate, which you would know if you’d bothered to read back and not leap in the moment you saw the “g” word. But whether he is celibate or not, you are not excused from treating him with some respect.
May 21st, 2006 at 10:28 pm
Furthermore, I’d encourage you to pray about letting the whole thing go EP at LP… drop the bone, so to speak… commit those “sinful gays” into the hands of Jesus, and ask instead what positive things God might be calling you to do. I’d be pretty convinced not one gay person has become hetero thanks to your efforts… not a one… and how many hours have you devoted to huffing and puffing about this? Is this really what God is calling you to do with your life? If Jesus asked you to leave all this behind and follow Him, would you be willing to do so? Might there not be lonely people you can listen to, sick you can visit, poor you can assist, people you can cook for, needs you can pray about? For all your earnestness, I can’t see you doing one scrap of good for anyone carrying on and on and on about homosexuality on this site… maybe you’d be a whole lot freer if you let this go and moved on. God doesn’t depend on you alone… maybe you can chat to Him about this.
May 21st, 2006 at 11:07 pm
Reve,
You have mentioned a number of issues in your posts and my heart goes out to you . I can remember many years ago when I decided that being a Pentecostal Christian just wasn’t working for me and I decided that enough was enough. It was really scary - within a short time I stopped going to church all together . I knew I made the right decision but I still missed the experience of going - I felt very lonely and isolated . On top of all this you have to deal with your sexuality and not knowing whether other Christians are going to be hostile to you if you are honest with them .
Not all churches are hostile to gay people - I would “shop” around and try some out . Of course after CCC some of them might seem pretty tame but it takes time to adjust . I think making contact with people on the freedom 2b site is also a good idea . It might also be worth going to see a counseller on a short term basis - they can help you clarify some of the issues .
If you are interested in meeting for a cup of coffee please feel free to get my email address off Phil.
May 21st, 2006 at 11:51 pm
reve #304 wrote, I wish i could just get clear one way the other. It’s the confusion & isolation that gets to me.
The Lord has given us His Word reve, for this very purpose - to make His will on the matter clear. Not to condemn us for the sinful propensity that is indeed our “natural orientation”; but to call us to repentance and faith in His Son that He might forgive us and deliver us from our natural sinful orientations. We cant change His mind about a matter by simply arguing a particular orientation. We are not without hope; we have hope in Christ.
May 21st, 2006 at 11:54 pm
Thankyou for your kindness, If you’re in Sydney i may just do that, Katherine…
It would be helpful i guess if we could at some stage create a list of “Gay-friendly” churches in Australia for others, also.
But in order to do that, churches would have to realise that “Gay Friendly” doesn’t mean “get them in, love-bomb them & lovingly show them over time the error of their ways with the end-result being that they discover heterosexuality”, it would mean exactly what it says - Gay Friendly - that is, “we love this person and acceot him’/her as a permanent member even know we know he will never change”.
Now, with that in mind, even if a church is not hostile, i don’t want a church that will “play nice” in front of my face but then secretly pray behind my back for a “Great Work of God” in the area of my sexuality either.
That’s just passive-aggression in place of hostility.
Do you see that just lack of hostility is still not adequate?
I’m sure it sounds like i’m asking or expecting too much.
May 22nd, 2006 at 3:22 am
AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In Homer’s brain (space)…no-one can hear you scream.
May 22nd, 2006 at 3:30 am
I want to respond to post 301..but I want more time to think about it..because it raises very real and pertinent questions about being gay and being Christian and being connected to the church.
May 22nd, 2006 at 7:39 am
actually Janet if you took your own advice then you would have realised all along I was talking about the act of homosexuality but then you merely had to jump in without reading. Ironic.
I have said essentially what James has said. the only orientation we have is to sin.
homosexuality is like any other sin it can be forgiven and overcome as it is shown at Corinth.
Reve,
What you are saying is something like a man attracted to married women.
given he hasn’t acted on this he hasn’t sinned so he sees no reason to change.
There is the problem of getting too close to the fire you eventually get burned.
I believe this is what people would be worrying about.
I don’t believe this is hostility nor aggression.
and Lance tries a new stupid question!!!
May 22nd, 2006 at 7:44 am
Yep, I’ll take my own advice and pray about whether I should be involved in this conversation.
WILL YOU? I mean really.
May 22nd, 2006 at 8:35 am
Homer you say “homosexuality is like any other sin it can be forgiven and overcome as it is shown at Corinth”.
Have you completely overcome thinking lustful thoughts about women other than your very own wife … ? Be honest …
May 22nd, 2006 at 9:14 am
lionfish I can honestly say I have never had any other lustful thoughts about anyone 9 my sins lie in other areas) but that is not the point.
you , I and most other people recognise that would be a sinful act that needs one to repent of and seek forgiveness of.
In this case the argument is homosexuality is not sinful and therefore needs no forgiveness nor repentance.
If I cor 6 tells us anything it does tell us the act of homosexuality doesn’t need any special help to stop. It is merely another sin.