Hillsong article
For those that inquired about the Hillsong article which appeared in the Weekend Australian, the Australian (or more particularly the copyright owner) has agreed to permit us to publish the article on this site for everyone to access, for a fee about the cost of a pair of sneakers. This is unfortunately outside of our (non-existent) budget for this site. Could people either comment here or drop me an email if you would be willing to chuck in some money to make this available, or alternatively if you don’t think that it is worth it to do. Ta.
May 22nd, 2006 at 10:49 am
Hey Reve, I live in Melbourne, but I’m going to be in Sydney for two conferences in June - if you drop me a line we can have a coffee. Dan or Phil, can you pls give Reve my email address?
May 22nd, 2006 at 11:14 am
“homosexuality is like any other sin it can be…overcome as it is shown at Corinth.”
So you believe homosexuals should and can be ‘cured’….?
May 22nd, 2006 at 11:27 am
No Luke,
it is merely just another sin which can be overcome.
Are we cured of lying, stealing, murdering, adultery, etc?
no we keep stumbling back into it. We do recognise it is bad and should refrain from it.
There is the rub however. no-one is saying you can continue in it and still be a christian.
Nowhere in the bible does it say that people who have committed homosexual acts cannot be saved indeed 1 Cor 6:11 is quite the opposite.
You can only be saved if you recognise you need saving.
If you believe there is nothing wrong with what you are doing despite god telling us the contrary you are rejecting the cross.
May 22nd, 2006 at 1:22 pm
Homosexuality is not a sin
May 22nd, 2006 at 1:45 pm
Why don’t you ask God to address a group of people to present an answer. Make sure God speaks clearly so everone can hear Him, and that He allows a question and answer session. The meeting could be recorded and posted here at signposts.
What’s the problem? God is not available for group consultations?
May 22nd, 2006 at 1:57 pm
taby,
It is quite explicitly said to be so in Leviticus and is so under ANY circumstances.
This then is confirmed first in Romans and then 1 Corinthians.
May 22nd, 2006 at 2:34 pm
Thanks Bec,
I’ll check my email & get your details.
EP, do you mean “getting too close to the fire” in the sense that in a church environment i might find other men like myself & somehow take advantage of the situation?
That somehow i have such amazing powers of persuasion that i might somehow awaken gay feelings in an otherwise straight man at a church & therefore that is a genuine concern & reason they might have for keeping me away?
I mean, i’m being honest here about my sexuality thus giving ppl an opportunity to discriminate against me (if you met me i guarantee you’d never suspect i was gay.. no-one else does unless i tell them) but are you suggesting that you are aware of the secret lustful longings of all those in your church?
They are welcome because they masquerade as being completely “sexual moral” whereas i am penalised & ostracised because i am stupid enough to aspire to transparancy?
Is that not creating a culture of dishonesty? & how does anything get dealt with that way?
Is not your church a comfortable place SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE no-one really knows what’s really going on in each others heads? Do you presume that you would not be surprised if you did?
You see EP, the only difference between me other members of your congregation is that you can see my struggle because i let you, i can’t see yours or theirs because you don’t.
I’m ready to be bashed with scripture now……………………………
May 22nd, 2006 at 2:46 pm
No by no means.
let us change the subject.
Suppose a man was attracted to married women. if he left it at that then there is no problems.
however if he saw nothing wrong with that and worked in situations with married women he could get so close to the fire he gets burned ie commits adultery.
We ALL have weaknesses that if we are not careful about can lead us to do the wrong thing.
All I am saying is do not go that extra mile that leads you to submitting to temptation.
May 22nd, 2006 at 2:54 pm
Understand this EP,
Assuming yours is a decent-sized congregation, right now someone you respect (because you only have a superficial understanding of them) is having or has had a homosexual affair with someone else in that church, & someone is sleeping with someone elses’ marriage partner, someome else is addicted to prescription painkillers or tickles the whisky a little too much.
Someone else you respect has an addiction to porn. And you’re youth are almost CERTAINLY experimenting with each other. And they’re listening to music so filled with hate it almost defies belief.
The reason you don’t know & nor does anybody else?
BECAUSE THEY DO NOT TRUST THAT IF THEY TOLD THE TRUTH THAT THEY WOULD NOT LOSE THE CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY THEY DESPERATELY NEED. They are terrified of, not God’s judgement (because they know he is forgiving)…….but yours & those like you.
May 22nd, 2006 at 3:19 pm
You see EP, the only difference between me other members of your congregation is that you can see my struggle because i let you, i can’t see yours or theirs because you don’t.
That’s why I keep asking Homer what sins he’s repented of in the past 2 years, and how he’s become more Christ-like in that time…..to level up the playing field.
I can honestly say I have never had any other lustful thoughts about anyone 9 my sins lie in other areas
What are those areas Homer, so we can have a fair discussion about whether you should be considered a Christian while still committing sin (your criteria, not mine).
No-one can take you seriously Homer until you stop hiding your sins and a proper evaluation can be made of your ‘Christian life’ and your sin life.
May 22nd, 2006 at 3:52 pm
Hey Reve, I live in Melbourne, but I’m going to be in Sydney for two conferences in June - if you drop me a line we can have a coffee. Dan or Phil, can you pls give Reve my email address?
Done. Almost missed that one. If you want us to pass on email addresses, better to send us an email request - we can’t guarantee that we will always see comments of this sort promptly.
May 22nd, 2006 at 3:59 pm
ok…*sigh* Signposts is getting THAT popular, huh?!
May 22nd, 2006 at 4:01 pm
reve, you and lance as most others do share a particular theme.
you just cannot get your heads round the difference someone sinning and then repenting and someone sinning and seeing nothing wrong with it despite gos sing Paul to tel us that in 1 cor 5.
when people tell me tell me the church is full of hypocrites I tell them they are wrong.
It is never full. No-one can ever live up to what we believe in.
That is a million miles from someone saying they belong yet doing deliberately and thoughtfully something contrary to what god has showed us.
May 22nd, 2006 at 4:30 pm
I feel it is an insult to God to repent of something both he & i know will not change.
Instead, i ask for his understanding & to help me to accept myself. He’s involved, make no mistake on that.
My lifestory & journey tells me that’s what he wants, too.
I don’t believe it’s God’s will for me to live in a cage of half-truths & pretense, i think that’s the churches Will.
And Homer, when i do find a Christian Community that i can really share with - there will be a depth connection between them & i based on what we KNOW & can CONFESS to one another freely without fear of rejection or distancing.
Do you not wish for the same?
May 22nd, 2006 at 5:17 pm
reve, you and lance as most others do share a particular theme.
you just cannot get your heads round the difference someone sinning and then repenting and someone sinning and seeing nothing wrong with it despite gos sing Paul to tel us that in 1 cor 5.
when people tell me tell me the church is full of hypocrites I tell them they are wrong.
It is never full. No-one can ever live up to what we believe in.
That is a million miles from someone saying they belong yet doing deliberately and thoughtfully something contrary to what god has showed us.
Homer, do you believe being a haughty, heartless, legalist, without grace, mercy or compassion, is sinful?
May 22nd, 2006 at 5:44 pm
I am confused with some of this discussion. Is there some common ground
that homer, lance and reve have.
Lets start with this.
Is it possible for people to having homosexual inclinations/desires and still be christians - My understanding is yes
A person who haves “feelings” either homo or hetero towards another is not necessarily sin.
A person who has LUSTFUL desires whether homo or hetero has committed sin in their heart.
A person who wilfully acts out homo or hetero sexual acts has committed sexual sin.
My belief is the only place sexual activity can occur with God’s blessing is in a marriage of a man and woman, anything outside of this is sinful.
My belief again is if a person wants to live as a christian they must remain celibate and free from sexual activity wheter it is homo or hetero.
My belief is also that a person can still serve God and be in leadership(Pastor) even though they struggle with homosexual inclinations as long as they remain celibate.
Homosexual sin should be treated similarly to heetrosexual sin.
Marriage must only be between a man and a woman.
How much do people agree/disagree with this???????????????
May 22nd, 2006 at 6:38 pm
actually Ned,
you are parroting the same song as I have been singing,
Lance as usual sadly you have no idea of what you are talking about.
reve,
There is only one place where you can determine whether you need to repent of anything. I certainly haven’t asked that.
that place is the bible where God talks to every one of us
May 22nd, 2006 at 10:06 pm
Homosexuality is not a sin.
According to Your interpretation it may be a sin. But it is not a sin according to My interpretation.
May 22nd, 2006 at 10:36 pm
Taby
Can you clarify what exactly are you referring to -
If 2 men or 2 women engage in physical sexual behaviour - do you consider this a sin or not??????????
May 22nd, 2006 at 11:07 pm
My comments are pretty self explanatory, ned.
If you wish to pursue this line of discussion further, I suggest that you go to the Bumping Uglies section and find the thread devoted to “God and Homosexuality.”
This thread is for discussion on the topic of Hillsong and the article that appeared in the Weekend Australian (and Geoff Bullock’s comments in the article, to be specific).
I think everyone would appreciate it if the Homosexuality discussion is limited to one thread instead of ALL the threads.
Does anyone concur??
May 23rd, 2006 at 3:23 am
Reve, IMO you make a good point when you say:
I feel it is an insult to God to repent of something both he & i know will not change.
(realise this isnt really the right thread … but this is where the comments are … im happy to move on too)
Then you talk about being transparent. I like to be transparent too, i think its the only way we can hope to find reality in God, or in ourselves.
Unlike EP, i spent over 20 years consumed by lust; before and after marriage. I recall trying to “repent” and it just never worked. After many years of soul-destroying … sin, try to repent, depression, sin, go to the pastor and confess my sin, go out the front at church and confess my sin (poor wife would cringe), depression, sin again (although like reve i was not practicing adultery, just totally guilty in all my thoughts and in my inner being) … until finally i came to realise it was not possible for me to change. This was it, this was who i was and it was inevitable that eventually the desire to commit adultery (and all sorts of debauchery) would overwhelm me and … that would become my life. Or so it truly seemed to me. And i knew it! I could trace my lust at least to the age of 6. It had always been me, what was the point in denying it.
But God showed me His mercy
In the midst of my utter despair, and at the point where i was about to give up and abandon myself … i could deny who i was no longer, the Lord brought to my attention the Scripture, “if we confess our sin He is just and faithful to forgive us our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (the sin principle that underlies the act)”. Yeah yeah Lord ive confessed and confessed and confessed a million times, id read the scripture thru and thru and knew all the proof texts well. Then i believe the Lord spoke clearly to me: James you call me a liar. I recoiled at this and asked, Lord how do i call you a liar. And i believe the Lord spoke to again: You confess your sin but you dont believe i forgive you. And you never truly confess your sin - only a sanitised version. Well this changed my life.
From that instant I acknowledged my sin before the Lord. I prayed something like: “Lord i look at naked pictures of women and any other sexually stimulating material i can find. The reason i look is because i really want to be having sex with women other than my wife. Lord i have committed adultery, i am fully and totally guilty and i am not repentant because that is what i want to do … and so on and a whole lot more.” Well, Duh, God forgave me and the blood of Christ was effective in cleansing me of the unrighteousness that drove the sin and, by the grace of God i have been free from the control of spirit of lust from that day to this. Not like a reformed alcoholic who needs AA, but a man set free. The power of the Cross! (this all happened at home alone, the Lord and me)
That was 19 years ago next month, and since that time i have been free of the controlling power of lust. It had been part of me for so long that i had come to believe it was who i was; it was only after the Lord granted me repentance and forgiveness that i realised it was sin that had control of me. Funny irony of it all, i dont lust for other women any more (find them attractive but dont lust) but boy of boy do i see my wife with eyes uncovered. And a loved wife blossoms
TABY, reve, im not trying to patronise you with “my story”. I know your experiences differ greatly from my own. What i do know is that we have hope “in Christ”. I also remember the years and years of patience the Lord extended to me … and that was just one area. You see, you might be able to convince others and even yourselves that “this is what i am”, but you cant convince me. I think you guys are just like Ned and EP and me, men in need of God’s grace and the cleansing of the blood of Christ.
Do i judge you, NO! You know, the funny thing about people whom the Lord delivers from sin; so often they think the Lord instantly appoints them as judges of those who have not been so delivered. But how can we be free unless the Lord Himself delivers us? And if it is the Lord who delivers us, what have we to boast about? May the Lord grant you His grace.
May 23rd, 2006 at 3:29 am
May the Lord grant us all His grace.
May 23rd, 2006 at 4:02 am
Homer, do you believe being a haughty, heartless, legalist, without grace, mercy or compassion, is sinful?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Lance as usual sadly you have no idea of what you are talking about.
Case closed.
May 23rd, 2006 at 8:36 am
James,
We all come from a broken past which is why we are humble.
We were sinners just like anyone else.
One cannot say my sins weren’t as bad as yours!
However the point is you realised you were sinning.
You wanted to change.
Taby, IF I am reading him correctly does NOT believe he is doing anything wrong if he commits acts of homosexuality.
reve’s position is somewhat different.
Grace abides and one of its manifestations is a realisation what sinners we were.
If a person declares, like Taby, his sin is not sin then that is exactly the same situation as is Corinth.
lance clearly is confused by these two different situations as is most people on this blog but it is important to understand otherwise the church involved will gradually dissipate.
It is no coincidence this happens to liberal churches whose understanding of basic biblical doctrine is quite poor.
May 23rd, 2006 at 8:43 am
Homer/EP,
Do you not see a contradiction between saying that you are humble and then in the same comment saying that everyone else on the blog can’t see what you see, don’t understand what you are understand and that all liberal churches have poor understanding of basic biblical doctrine?
I don’t know about you but I did find that funny this morning.
May 23rd, 2006 at 9:12 am
Phil,
humble means we were all sinners. that is what God talks about.
We can only gain things through him not ourselves. We put ourselves in God’s hands
That is possibly the most basic biblical doctrine of all yet you a minister do not seem understand this.
If churches such has yours do not have the first inkling of what god is telling us in 1 Cor 5 and keep on mixing it up with grace then what does it say?
May 23rd, 2006 at 10:06 am
Apolz TABY,
I will limit my input to the “god and homosexuality” thread so as to prevent cross-fertilisation of issues.
;o)
May 23rd, 2006 at 10:15 am
was that said with a pregnant pause?
May 23rd, 2006 at 12:36 pm
Now may I ask EP at LP (or Homer or whoever) and anyone else… when yet another new person comes along and slips in some remark about homosexuality, politely refer them to the “God and Homosexuality” thread too? It’s not just that every thread get off track and onto this… I think as I screamed about earlier, it’s the way it’s approached.
Really… if someone came to you and shared that they were in the midst of a divorce and really struggling with it, would the first thing you do be to hit them with verses about this is adultery and how they are sinning… how the bible is perfectly clear about this? No?????
Regardless of your views about whether divorce (and / or remarriage) is sinful or not, shouldn’t there be some sensitivity to the tender feelings and woundedness of the people involved? Isn’t it appropriate to begin with a pastoral response… and perhaps to explore a theological response later if the person concerned is interested in / open to this? Doesn’t it just further wound an already wounded heart to leap in with a theological judgment when what they might actually be open to is some understanding?
Isn’t this exactly what happens however when someone mentions the “G” word”? Clobber them with scripture for their own good?
I really don’t expect you’ll change your theological views on this EP and LP… not in a million years. All I’m asking… and with little hope at that… is that your response to others is sensitive and gracious. The Pharisees had the law all right and the spirit of the law all wrong. They had good intentions… they really did! But they failed to be agents of grace or transformation.
Do you know what I’m trying to say?
May 23rd, 2006 at 12:46 pm
Janet,
first of all the pharisees didn’t have the law right indeed that was the major criticism Jesus had of them
That was not the issue here. IF a person who considered they were a christian kept on with adultery behaving and indeed saying it was not sinful then I would indeed hit him over the head with the bible literally.
however this has never happened.
No-one makes such an absurd claim.
However that claim has been made of the act of homosexuality here.
There is a million miles of difference between a person committing a homosexual act and realizing it is wrong and reacting so and a person who sees nothing wrong with it.
This is what 1 Cor 5 is all about and why God wrote it for us