Hillsong article
For those that inquired about the Hillsong article which appeared in the Weekend Australian, the Australian (or more particularly the copyright owner) has agreed to permit us to publish the article on this site for everyone to access, for a fee about the cost of a pair of sneakers. This is unfortunately outside of our (non-existent) budget for this site. Could people either comment here or drop me an email if you would be willing to chuck in some money to make this available, or alternatively if you don’t think that it is worth it to do. Ta.
July 15th, 2006 at 10:25 am
Someone in Government must ask the question.. what training will Hillsong Emerge give to their $650 a pop counsellors. My psychiatrist charges $217 for 50 minutes. He is under strict supervision from his peers, is a qualified doctor who has undergone years of further study. He is constantly guided by professional ethics and generations of acquired knowledge. However, at Hillsong, I became a credentialled pastor without any bible college training, whilst being a Bible College principal at the time, and I was not ther only one, in fact, at the time, unqualified pastors outnumbered college graduates by a large majority. Who amongst their high profile pastors has completed any accredited theology and counselling training? These well meaning and highly motivated people are at the peak of international influence concerning the future shape and direction of a huge chunk of the Christian Faith. Now the Governement is handing over the souls and psyche of a generation of disenfranchised individuals to their care. I am truly scared.. and scarred… by the possibility of emotional, spiritual and physical abuse. Any organisation that was true to even the basic principles of faith and Christ consciousness would simply refuse to have anything to do with the Governments callous and inhumane new social welfare policies. However, Hillsong Emerge once again jumps into the greedy bin. Urgh, it is beyond belief Who will pick up the pieces?
July 15th, 2006 at 11:46 am
“Who will pick up the pieces?”
The media.
I’m back at work today after 3 weeks of mind-numbingly boring holidays.
Yay.
July 15th, 2006 at 1:50 pm
I absolutely agree with Geoff.
Years ago when i was in my very early 20’s i was a Local Gov’t Youth Worker, & i remember my boss (whom had a proper degree in Social Work & whom i was very closely supervised by) used to be very concerned that a Christian organisation might be successful, through privatisation, in winning a tender & gaining the contract to run what had always been a local govt service.
Her concern was that because Christian orghanisations could run the service at a lesser cost, through volunteerism insyead of trained & paid workers, that the quality & professional ethics might reduce.
Her other concern, but still connected, was with volunteerism itself, she explained that when christians offered their services for free with social & youth work it set up a societal expectation that people in these professions in the secular world do not deserve to be adequately recompensed for their skilled & have their professionalism recognised through recompense the way any other skilled worker would.
So you see, this whole model of “those at the top paid as co-ordinators of minions of volunteers underneath” is not only dangerous to service recipients, but to the reputation & recognition of helping professions themselves.
By the way, my boss was of this opinion even though she was a very strong Christian herself so was not an anti-religious intellectual by any means.
PS. One other thing, i had been doing volunteer youth work for a Christian organisation before i got paid work with the council & i remember when i got the council job thinking that i had to forget everything i thought i knew from before & start my training in the ethics & boundaries of youth work from scratch as i had recieved no adequate training through the Christians.
So, ………………if that tells you anything.
July 15th, 2006 at 2:33 pm
This trained pastor thing is a bit overblown. Trained as a counselor - WHY _ why -do people think the church is the place to get counseling, - it’s the place to get the counselor. Does any scripture give us a direction to counsel people? I know we do it and soem even do it well, but you can be a legitimate church without providing counseling. It’s nice if you can do it, but not a new (or old) testament requiremnet of a church.
Pastors job seems to be - point people to Jesus, pray with effect and give good biblical teaching, guard the flock, feed them the word, teach and encourage, admonish some. Counseling not required.
The evolution of the church has left us with a clouded view of what church is supposed to be. If you haev to have aPhd then where would those uneducated disciples of Jesus be.
Perhaps the governments need to establish something in thier own definitions as to what a churches function is. Let’s leave the counseling to the counselors and the pastoring to the pastors. Hillsong Emerge is trying to get the gravy again - why not voice an opinion to the goverment to quit giving your tax dollars out to any Tom, Dick or Harry who can pass themselves off a counselors - just because they have religious or church tied to their name.
If it really is a ministry, why does the governmet need to pay them anything at all. As soon as the goverment pays us, we will even pray for the sick –(another job of the elders/pastors)
July 15th, 2006 at 5:12 pm
Macademia Nut,
Ignorance is not a virtue . Ministers are dealing with complex issues and vulnerable people every day of their life and they need to be educated to do this effectively . Sure not every disciple of Jesus had a college education but at at least some of them were educated by the standards of the day or they wouldn’t have been able to write the bible .
July 15th, 2006 at 6:10 pm
Geoff B - great post. Yes - who indeed will pick up the pieces or be the one to speak out against these issues?
I’ll tell you who it won’t be - it won’t be the vast majority of Christians. No, they’re too busy attending the latest and greatest conference, like CCC’s real men or the recent Hillsong one.
They’re not game enough to speak up because gee, that might mean that someone in the church would get offended or think badly of them. And besides, Pastor so and so tells them what to think and he reckons Brian Houston is a pretty good bloke so who are they to think otherwise?
Besides they’ll argue, shouldn’t we all just on and love each other? Isn’t that what we’re meant to do? Just love each other in our big Jesus bubble?
No, Lance is right unfortunately.
The secular media will be the only one’s with enough backbone and integrity to speak up about this. Any Christian who dares to say anything about the Hillsong’s dealings is labelled a malcontent or worse.
WIGGY
July 15th, 2006 at 7:16 pm
Jesus Wept
July 15th, 2006 at 11:19 pm
Katherine, “Ignorance is not a virtue” - No one says it is. But the idea that you have to offer counseling to people to be a pastor is wrong. Just because people have complex issues and are vulnerable - does not mean that a pastor has to be able to counsel everyone with every issue. Most should and do point to a place where you can get help - especially if it is a phschological issue. But then again, counseling helps some and not others and leaves a few worse off. It is the educated ones that over medicate and just because they are trained doesn’t mean they are good at it either.
a college education is not a requirement to be a pastor - studying to show thyself approved is. A college education is fine and does help - but for most pastors their training could be in business. You seem to discount a new testament concept of ministry traing called mentoring. You won’t get mentoring with a degree - you will get information. But a mentor teaches you by giving information and helping you apply it. A pastors job is to handle the word and let the word heal you. Give me someone who has been mentored over a graduate from most of these Bible Schools. Oh, the last pastor I had who was a liscenced counselor - comitted suicide.
This church thing has gotten sooooo complicated. Hillsong and Mega church pressures are causing small churches to “compete” with their program driven ways of doing church, and are complicating the simple. So is the demand that pastors must have a counseling base and a college educatinon just to tell people that Jesus is alive.
July 16th, 2006 at 8:50 pm
macadamia nut
dumb dumb dumb and ignorant comments quite frankly.
i don’t know of any BA in Theological or Masters for that matter that doesn’t have a very strong and closely monitored mentoring program.. mentoring by people who have learnt ancient greek studied apologetics and theology and pastored churches for many years and given people spiritual counselling (your loose definition of counselling oversimplifys your arguement)
imagine what you would get with people like phil pringle and brian houstan as mentors
your comment on a licensed counselor who commited suicide has no relevance whatsoever… i know someone who went to an unqualified pastor for advice who then commited suicide - so what
the church thing is complicated - as is life - as is Christianity…
my chair is complicated .. at a glance its a bit of cushion and plastic but when you get in close its made of atoms and chemicals in long chains and torsion compression and tension stresses that would take an engineer to figure the maths for…
get to know the complicated stuff properly and you will do the simple stuff right
i could make a chair.. but not even i would sit on it because i don’t know the complicated stuff……..
everyone today thinks they can put out their shingle and start a church and make a buck while satisfying their pride and desire for a microphone
July 17th, 2006 at 8:25 am
Gee abtruth - I must have struck anerve. Brian and Phil are mentoring lots of folks in a round about sort of way… like through their leadership COLLEGE. Maybe in the midst of the following scripture you can point out the scriptural requirement of a counselor or the demand for a degree in greek.
I tim 32 A bishop then must be blameless.. husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, F3 lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
i know a lot of people who have sacrificed much to start churches in obscure places in the outback and countryside from North America to China. What is your condemnation of the house church pastors in China who have not compomised to join the government approved national church - people like Brother Yun who go to prisons and serve the Lord as pastors - I guess they do this to satisfy their own ego, to get a microphone.
You seem to undervalue those who serve without the education.
Some of these pastors in these out of the way places start a house church in China with 2 weeks of Bible training, and they get results. Greater results than you or I a re probably getting. For some reason, I believe a simple chair would be too hard for you to build. the complicated stuff like 4 legs and place to park you backside.
July 17th, 2006 at 8:54 am
I never heard of Phil Pringle or Phil Baker until I read about them on htis site. Found an intersting articel by Phil Baker.
http://www.faith4life.com/PhilipBaker.htm
July 17th, 2006 at 9:14 am
In relation to Geoff’s comment,
I worked for an organisation run by Hillsong as a qualified counsellor. There were other staff employed who had no qualifications but I was sent on my way because someone prayed about who should be on staff and was told by God it wasn’t me. I was the only qualified counsellor and I was told I wasn’t going to be a counsellor anymore yet 3 others without qualifications would be. I was told it was only a bit of paper and anyone could counsel. These are the types of people you have to deal with at Hillsong. Scarey huh. I quickly resigned for good reason. And “supervision” working there for a year I recieved none. I was also told to become a pastor because I recieved tax breaks. Not because I was called to but because it was more profitable. I wasn’t a qualified pastor nor had stepped foot inside a bible college but was immediatly given the tax breaks and called a pastor. WHAT THE!!!!!!
July 17th, 2006 at 9:18 am
MN,
Take it from someome whom has ben both a Christian Volunteer Minister (uneducated) & Local Govt. Youth Worker (better educated), the issue here, regardless of whether you are a Counsellor or Pastor is POWER.
The title is not important, what is important is that there are vulnerable people who rely on those who appear to be in authority on certain issues for advice.
When these people are not properly educated in how that authority & power must be ethically handled when dealing with anyone more vulnerable than themselves, then there is room for abuse.
No-one is born with inbuilt knowledge of the responsible use of power, how to guide someone without abusing them. It is an extremely fine line & must be tought over time & then supervised continuously.
I repeat, take the focus off qualifications exclusively & focus in on “how educated is this person in the ethics of the responsible use of power”.
July 17th, 2006 at 9:33 am
John, Post #42
Agreed, that is scary stuff.
When someone’s ministry path is dependent on a “word” from someone else who has never been taught the difference betwen the pure word of God & their own sub-conscious prejudices & motivations the scope foe Spiritual Abuse is enormous.
I attended a conference on cults last year where for four hours i sat under the teaching of an ex member of “The Children of God / Family” cult. For his own protection & privacy i can’t mention his name.
One of the things he said was that we must NEVER allow anyone, NO MATTER WHAT STANDING THEY HAVE IN THE CHRISTIAN WORLD to prophesy over you & then tell you what it means.
This of course does not mean that we don’t prophesy at all, whast it means is, if you have a word of knowledge for somebody, or you think that God has given you a dream that relates to them, the only way to ethically communicate that is by saying “Steve, I feel i had this revelation for you the other night, i don’t know for sure if it’s for you but i’m just going to tell you what happened & leave it with you to interperet if you think it is for you”.
But you NEVER say “God told me this, & this is what he’s saying you have to do”. Doing this is the EPITOME of spiritual abuse.
July 17th, 2006 at 9:36 am
Reve - I can buy that, power is the issue when it comes to most church stuff. My point is merely this. You don’t have to offer services as a counselor (trained or otherwise ) to be a legitimate pastor. Nor does it require a degree in ancient Chinese Horse farming. You don’t have to be doctor in order to be a pastor.
A pastor is not someone who has to provide mental health services anymore than he has to set broken bones or do cancer surgery. Some Pastors are Dr’s and do a fine job - others are doctors and wouldn’t recognize the Holy Spirit if he rode in on a white horse. some non degreed people have incredible wisdom and they can relate it to people most effectively. even better than the greek scholars. But you won’t find a lot of greek scholars ministering to the poor or working in the shelters. You won’t find a lot of pastors there either, but the ones who are there are probably under educated in the ways to minister effectively - while they minister effectively.
July 17th, 2006 at 9:41 am
Sorry, in Post 404 i was referring to John’s Post 402, not 42.
July 17th, 2006 at 9:44 am
You may be right in some of what you’ve said MN.
For me, the line is simply drawn between those are not personally aware that they are sub-consciously pushing personal agenda’s & those whom are truly ministering as a vessel of the Holy Spirit (less of them, more of God).
We know we don’t have to worry about the latter.
July 17th, 2006 at 10:10 am
I find myself agreeing with both Reve and MN in part. I agree that it is not necessary for a pastor to be a counsellor or skilled in crisis counselling. At the same time, though, some training in dealing with crisis situations on a “triage” basis is often pretty darn useful in a church environment.
On one level I agree that there is nothing magical about training or qualifications to prepare people for ministry. Many untrained people (such as the leaders of the chinese house church movement) are often inspiring and godly servants. However, there are equally untrained ministers who are frankly “quacks”, exploiting their followers and drawing people into error.
A systematic process of training, qualification and mentoring, such as the processes required for ordination in many denominations, serves to maximise (though not guarantee) the prospect that ministers will be capable of critical thought, schooled in ethics and boundaries, equipped with practical skills such as the ability to identify issues and refer to appropriately trained professionals and so on.
July 17th, 2006 at 11:13 am
All I will say on this matter, is that there is a noticeable difference in the theology and exegesis of scriptures by those who have undergone extensive seminary training and those who go to an Amway styled Bible College.
Why do seminary trained Pastors teaching giving by Grace rather than ‘tithing’?
Why do we have no Pastor who support doctrines such as tithing giving a logical well considered defense?
It is simple - they do not have the expertise to ‘know truth from error’. They do not know what they are teaching – and the implication of the errors that they teach!
You may see this as a ‘minor difference’ in theology – something to be over looked, but it quickly becomes a ‘major’ if you want to ‘join’ one of these Churches or start asking questions on this ‘minor’ doctrine.
Qualifications may not be essential – but they lower the ‘risk’ of the teaching of dodgy doctrine and thus spiritual abuse.
For the rest of my life – I will sit under the teaching of a qualified Pastor.
July 17th, 2006 at 11:28 am
Oh, here is weblink to guy that I guess you would sit under, seeing he was Qualified - or more like Bonafide maybe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobart_Freeman I knew people who went to his church where they laid dead babies on the altar next to live ones and tried to pray life from into the dead. No joke.
or http://www.drgenescott.com/home.htm where you can sit under the “qualified teaching” of pastor, Dr. Gene Scott (Ph.D. Stanford University) is the Pastoring Teacher of the University Cathedral in Los Angeles, California. He teaches on subjects ranging from Basic Christianity, to Atlantis, to the Pyramids.
All dodgy doctrine has someone credentialed espousing the line. These guys are However, there are equally TRAINED ministers who are frankly “quacks”, exploiting their followers and drawing people into error
July 17th, 2006 at 11:31 am
My point is simply that the Government is legitimising a counselling service and funding it whilst those who oversee this service and those who provide the service are ALL unqualified and/or ill-equipped. It’s not about Churches or doctrine, it is about a total avoidance of compassion and care. Hillsong once again sets a dangerous trend in it’s quest for power, prominence and prosperity. Will they now presume to add a counselling course to their conferences, with instructions on how to obtain Government funding, without the slightest thought as to the soundness of their procedures and ethics, let alone their clients?
July 17th, 2006 at 11:33 am
Lionfish - I fear you may be like the antithesis of the Kenneth Copeland bunch. No pastor wants them in his church because they hang on every word to make sure it aligns with Cope’s teaching of the week. - But you would be likewise difficult to pastor becasue of your hanging on every word to make sure it aligns with your teachers guidelines. is there room for honest error or “grace” with you? - or do you cut and run? or just not bother to go, since no one is right anyway? Just curious, no foul intended though I admit it does look that way.
July 17th, 2006 at 11:42 am
Geoff - you’re right. The government should not recognize them as counsellors - under any circumstances - they are not counsellors. In the States, you have to be careful for insurance liability reasons, about who you call counselors. The courts hold you liable for your advise if you make that designation. If you call yourself an “altar worker” the standard is lower and liability harder to prove, because altar worker is a church/religious term, where as counselor is considered a presfessional designation.
I don’t think the scriptures give us carte blanche to “minister” as counselors. Pray for yes, Love them even more yes - encourage and teach the word to - yes. As Reve said it is all about Power.
July 17th, 2006 at 11:56 am
Lionfish – you would be welcome in my church any day. It would be a great asset to the church to have someone who is passionate at keeping what is preached from the pulpit biblical; who is determined to keep what is lived by the pastor is biblical; who is discerning enough to keep the pastor in check with the bible. I don’t think you would be difficult to pastor as MNut has bluntly said. We are advised to be strong in the faith and not weak kneed.
MNut – you’ve got to be kidding - since when has honest error and ‘grace’ been synonymous?? If there are mistakes coming from the pulpit do you just ignore them?
July 17th, 2006 at 1:10 pm
The other issue that Hillsong will be under-eqipped to deal with is that of Counsellor burn-out. Anyone at the cutting edge of society’s needy (not just your own churches parishioners) will eventually hit burn-out if they have not adequately been drilled in boundary setting & keeping.
DOCS Case Workers - whom are almost all Uni Grads - normally burn-out & never return to the profession sometime betwen 6-18mths.
Signs of burnout include feelings of depression, anxiety, emptiness, meaninglessness & so on.
How forgiving & understanding will Hillsong be when their inexperienced counsellors suddenly start needing time off because inadequate boundaries have caused them to become spiritually & emotionally exhausted?
Have a guess - they will be told they are not strong enough in God & in faith & will be turned away from in disgust.
Make no mistake, the counsellors themselves will be casualties through all of this as well. & will require years to recover.
As a matter of fact, you will see them starting to emerge on this blog inside three years. I’ll put money on it.
July 17th, 2006 at 1:41 pm
I dumped fifteen months of my 21st & 22nd years into a Christian “coal-face” ministry as a volunteer. I remember the guy at the top & one other got paid & acknowledged for much of the work & relationships-building & seed-sowing that we did, constantly taking credit in the newspapers & often putting out newsletters misinforming their supporters that they were doing all the work. I & others suffered burn-out in the end for what they were being paid & acknowledged to do.
It was my first experience as a Christian, not yet six months born-again.
Was only there for less than 2 years, but it took me a lot longer to get over.
July 17th, 2006 at 1:50 pm
MN- what I stated was that qualifications reduced the risk of error – not eliminated it altogether.
Sure there are well qualified guys, I would not sit under – John Shepherd, Barbara Thieling, Bishop Spong for example.
And despite my long, probing venomous barns, I would gracefully tolerate a certain level of crap from the pulpit in the interests of Unity – I did for four year in the contemporary Church until I realised that what I let through to the keeper (eg. Tithing, prosperity doctrine) was actually contributing to a wider problem (ie. An elite class of anointed leaders making $big dollars on the ‘lucrative speaking circuit’) at the expense of those who are duped into giving sacrificially and are addicted to consuming the pulp fiction of these ‘self-improvement’ motivational books/conference event marketing family controlled businesses.
I choose my battles wisely – however as the saying goes ‘If you don’t stand for something – you’re going to fall for anything’.
July 17th, 2006 at 2:03 pm
Point taken lionfish. And yuo have a point about the speaking circuit $$$ - it’s just that I’d like to be one of the speakers and I am afraid you’re going to ruin it before my big break comes.
July 17th, 2006 at 2:10 pm
LOL!
July 17th, 2006 at 2:20 pm
rofl mnut
your own posts (previously) confirm my postion though
look at verse 6
I tim 32 A bishop then must be blameless.. husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, F3 lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
someone in China doesnt have the ability to get as educated as others - this is a false arguement called a ‘red herring’… you also miss the point about the chair… what seems simple is often sophisticated upon closer inspection…
a better analogy or rejoinder would have been ‘ things should be as simple as possible but not simpler than they are’…