Hillsong article
For those that inquired about the Hillsong article which appeared in the Weekend Australian, the Australian (or more particularly the copyright owner) has agreed to permit us to publish the article on this site for everyone to access, for a fee about the cost of a pair of sneakers. This is unfortunately outside of our (non-existent) budget for this site. Could people either comment here or drop me an email if you would be willing to chuck in some money to make this available, or alternatively if you don’t think that it is worth it to do. Ta.
July 19th, 2006 at 10:24 pm
Hillsong Church - In Their Own Words
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEh4gc33xRI
July 20th, 2006 at 12:22 am
“Displaying ferocious energy and infectious hooks that grab the 7,000 worshippers at its home church in London’s West End, Hillsong London combines the virtues of its Aussie antecedents with a Brit-pop sound.
Opening with “Lord of All” and riding a snaking bass line reminiscent of Frankie Goes to Hollywood’s “Relax,” “Jesus Is” rocks powerfully for the first third of the 14-track CD, pulling the congregation along with one romp after another.”
From http://feed.insnews.org/v-cgi/feeds.cgi?feedid=145&story_id=1998112
(knowing wink to ‘Jane’)
July 21st, 2006 at 2:16 pm
A bit more of the puzzle of what’s been happening with Anthony Venn-Brown’s theological thinking has come to light in his latest emailed newsletter.
From PSA Helpful Hints No. 194.
(AVB:) “There have been 3 periods in my life that I would consider to be truly life changing/transformational. Each one certainly produced dynamic changes in my life.
The similarity with each of these 3 events is that they were the result of a new understanding universal laws and principles. Things that are common to philosophy, religions and metaphysics. Discoveries in the realm of quantum physics reveal how true these things are. There is so much to learn, understand and apply.
I sat in my lounge room watching the amazing new movie “The Secret”, and I knew it. Of course I knew the secret. It is no secret. Anyone who has dedicated themselves to personal growth knows it or is at least operating it by default. But somehow I’d forgotten it.
I’d live the secret most of my years as a preacher. After I left the ministry, Bob Proctor introduced me to new levels of understanding about:
sowing and reaping
cause and effect
the law of attraction
the creative power of thought
the law of abundance
the impact of the words we speak
Amazing things began to happen.
Then somehow I went into a dark place though, some might call the dark night of the soul. I forgot about the principles that had changed my life. 6 years later I stumbled on the secret again through the Delfin Knowledge System. Once again new understandings and insights emerged and this massive shift in my thinking produced corresponding changes. All the good things I have in my life today are a result of the secret.
In the last couple of weeks this information comes to me again in a new form or presentation and that made me realise I forgot the secret.
How can that happen?
One of the answers I’m coming up with is about new levels of consciousness or maybe time for new growth and season in my life. Or could it be that our brain just files the things we are familiar with in the subconscious and they no longer register in our conscious awareness? Could I have slipped into autopilot?
Whatever the answer, these questions are not as important as asking myself “You know how powerful this information is, what are you going to do about it?”
I think its time for me to think new thoughts and create new things.
My question to you today is “what has been transformational in your life in the past that needs to be resurrected?”
______
The guy mentioned..Bob Proctor…is one of these ‘how to get rich’ guys .. http://asamanthinketh.net/bornrich.htm
“You Were Born Rich gives you the complete, proven system for using the potential you have locked inside of you to achieve financial, emotional, physical, and spiritual prosperity. This International Best Seller by Bob Proctor will open your eyes to the deep reservoirs of talent and ability that lie deep within you.”
The ‘Delfin Knowledge System’ ..as well as being the source of AVB’s inspiration….is also…as it turns out… the source of Pat Mesiti’s ‘Millionaire Mindset’…teaching.
“Millionaire Mindset Secrets by Leslie Fieger
Leslie Fieger is the author of several self empowerment books, CD’s and tapes including the best selling Delfin Knowledge Trilogy - The Initiation, The Journey and The Quest. This fine work is also known as the Delfin Knowledge System.
Millionaire Mindset Secrets by Leslie Fieger is for those who are searching for the answer to the questions: Why am I not successful? and How can I be?
Millionaire Mindset Secrets contains the Inside Story about the Mental Mastery Tricks Leslie Fieger used to go from broke idealist to millionaire realist in less than 365 days.”
Perhaps it needs to be asked of Christian City Church and Hill$ong leaders…how much of their teaching is based on the ‘Delfin Knowledge System’…
July 21st, 2006 at 2:18 pm
What a fuckwit.
July 21st, 2006 at 2:34 pm
More about the theology of the ‘Delfin Knowledge System’ that inspires Anthony Venn-Browni.
From http://www.advancingwomen.com/spirituality/23089.php
“Abundance As Spiritual Birthright
I am going to remind of some simple, yet important things, that you should already know, but perhaps need a reminding of just now. I know that I need reminding from time to time and suspect that you may also need the same ’straight to the point’ reminders.
I have written thousands of pages about success, wealth creation, prosperity consciousness and personal empowerment. All those many words are but an elaboration of these nine basic precepts. If you need convincing or want the substantiation or the practical application of these nine precepts, then buy and read my books. If you just need the simple reminder, then read through to the bottom of this page.
1. Creator, or the Ultimate Source, or the All That Is All, or the Universal Creative Impulse, or God, or whatever you may wish to name it, desires your prosperity and success. It does not desire (or demand) any impoverishment, suffering or limitation of any kind for you UNLESS that is what you desire or envision for yourself. Creator wants you to be blessed, wants you to succeed, wants you to have all the wealth and abundance you desire for yourself. Desire is de-sire… of the father. Your desires for wealth and abundance are divine. Honor them.
2. You are an inseparable part of Source. You are a divine creator as well as a sacred creature. Your intimate connection with the All That Is All is always there and cannot ever be severed for any reason EXCEPT that you will it to be so. (and even that is an illusion) You don’t need to do anything to return to Source. You are already there and always have been and always will be at one with The All That Is All. You are a part of, not apart from, Infinite Intelligence. Your consciousness is contained within universal consciousness. Each and every thought held in your consciousness is an integral part of the universal. It adds to the whole. It is creative.
3. You deserve success and wealth. You do not need to measure up to any standard, not even the ones you have set for yourself in order to merit wealth, success or happiness. Abundance is your birthright as a child of God. There is no prime cause at work that denies you the fulfillment of your fondest desires for success and happiness. To the contrary, the universe is set up to support your abundance. Harmonize yourself with the way the universe works and you will have all you envision and desire. It’s all about vibration and harmonics.
4. The Law of Attraction is always working. Whatever you have in your life right now, you have attracted into it. You do not attract what you wish for or even what you envision; you attract what you are. What you have and what you see around you is but a reflection of who you are being in this moment. Denial does not negate the Law of Attraction anymore than it negates Gravity, which is, after all, just another example of the Law of Attraction in action. Become more and you will have more.
5. The choice is always yours. At each and every moment, you have the power to choose to be, do and have more. Or less. Whatever you can imagine, you can have. The four principle forces that power your creativity are: thought, belief, desire and intent. You can choose what and how to think. You can choose what and how to believe. You can choose what to desire. You can choose your intentions. Such is your power. Choose carefully. Choose intentionally. Choose purposefully. Your choices of thought, belief, desire and intent determine who you are. Who you are determines what you get to have.
6. The true purpose of your life is simply to revere, relish and contribute. Life is meant to be a joyful event. When you honor all things, especially yourself, as being sacred; and when you wholeheartedly partake in and appreciate the pleasures of life; and when you consciously and intentionally choose to make a contribution to life… you are fulfilling the purpose of your life and you will experience joy and fulfillment. When you are searching for the purpose of your life, you are seeking the way that you can make a contribution or express your gratitude for the gift of life. Become a blessing and you will be blessed.
7. Love really is all you need. Compassion will open you up to being able to receive and accept all the love, joy and abundance that surrounds you constantly. Compassion for all creation, most especially for your sacred self, is the key that unlocks the door into infinity. Infinite love surrounds you. Be compassionate to life. Become passionate about life and you will experience all the abundance you are willing to allow yourself. In order to love your neighbor as yourself, you need to first love yourself. Love you. Honor you. Cherish you.
8. When you remember these simple things, life makes sense; when you forget them, you get confused by the apparent complexity. You wrote this script, now you are acting it out as the ultimate method actor. However, you may stumble occasionally, in the brilliance of your performance, when you forget the plot. Since you wrote this script, you can change it at any time you desire. Since you are playing the role you wrote, you can play it any way you think best. Drama, comedy, tragedy, romance, adventure, soap opera? You decide.
9. You are hearing this now because you asked to be reminded, from time to time, of what you know, but sometimes forget, as you immerse yourself in the experience of life on planet earth. You came here to play this game. That was your original choice. It remains your choice. I get to be the guy, this time, to remind you of the rules of your game. That is my contribution. Next time, it may be your turn to remind me. We have eternity to play. Eternity exists in this exact moment. Play full out. Now.
I love you. I honor you. I am grateful that you chose to be a part of my life. I am humbled if I can contribute in any way to the pleasure and success of your journey.
© Leslie Fieger. All rights reserved worldwide.
Leslie is the author of The DELFIN Knowledge System Trilogy: The Initiation, The Journey and The Quest plus many more success publications.”
There’s a heck of a lot there that’s in common with the teaching of ‘contemporary’ churches…and Phil Pringle’s Christian City Church in particular.
July 21st, 2006 at 2:43 pm
Wow…so desire means “from the Father”, eh? That’s funny….I mean, hate to be a pedantic English major stickler and all, but…
” ‘desire’ - c.1230, from O.Fr. desirer, from L. desiderare “long for, wish for,” original sense perhaps “await what the stars will bring,” from the phrase de sidere “from the stars,” from sidus (gen. sideris) “heavenly body, star, constellation”.”
Whoops.
July 21st, 2006 at 3:05 pm
More from Anthony Venn Brown’s source of inspiration…the writings of Leslie Fieger..
“Truth or Consequence
Prime probability:
You have been and are being deceived by those you trust the most for your spiritual education. Some of that deception may be intentionally done in an attempt to control your behavior and your wallet and some may be done simply out of ignorance. Whatever the motivation, lies are being presented as truth; worse, often they are being presented as being THE TRUTH.
These deceptions are preventing you from knowing and owning your sacred and divine self.
Some of the lies you may have bought into are presented here and some alternative perspectives are presented for your consideration. Please remember that I am not doing this to intentionally offend or upset you and everything I say here is only my opinion. I only desire to wake you up to your freedom to choose what, how and why to believe, and to empower you to be free to be all that you desire to be.
Beliefs create reality:
When you are free to choose your beliefs, you become empowered to create. When you are imprisoned by your beliefs, you remain a mere creature.
Anyone, including me, who claims to represent THE TRUTH, is a liar, a deceiver. No book, no church, no prophet, no preacher, no guru, no writer has ever been granted an exclusive license to represent The Truth. You are the only consciousness that can ever determine what is true for you.
However, please remind yourself that whatever truth you choose to hold is likely incomplete, so why imagine or pretend otherwise? If there is some grand all-encompassing truth (and I doubt it), the human intellect is not a tool capable of imagining, defining, understanding or communicating it.
Why do I doubt that there is an all-encompassing truth? Simply because the infinite is infinite and contains all possibilities and potentialities, including its own potential to constantly become more than its own grand, all-encompassing truth.
In my experience with the infinite, it cannot be known completely, only approached. That does not mean that you cannot become intimate with it, only, as with a lover, you can only ever get closer to knowing the depth of what is available in the relationship.
To imagine that some current mythology, no matter how culturally pervasive or how stridently affirmed, is any more valid than any other, past or present, in any other culture, time or place is willful self-delusion.
As soon as you, or even humanity as a whole, decide something is known for certain, you can bet your bottom dollar that it will be proven wrong or at least incomplete with the passage of time and greater understanding. Every human understanding and belief should, therefore, be considered to be only theory, even when, or especially when, it is called fact or truth.
All good scientists know this. Even though Einstein’s theory of relativity looks pretty good and most scientists buy into it and it is generally accepted as fact, it is still called a theory.
Quantum mechanics is only a theory, but I believe in it; I believe it is true. It is a good metaphor. It has a major impact on the way I think about and see reality; but it is only just a theory. String theory, although it is getting close to describing the whole of how the physical universe(s) works, is a just a theory. Newton’s laws?only a theory.
Why would you imagine that your spiritual truths and beliefs should be any different? The ancient Greeks were deluded in their beliefs about Zeus and his pantheon of major and minor gods and goddesses, but your beliefs are now The Real Truth? Who is kidding whom? Your most profoundly held spiritual belief is only a theory, an opinion.
That is not to say that your beliefs contain no value; it only means the value is relative, not conclusive or all-inclusive. They may be highly relative to how and why you choose to live your life, but they may not be the least bit relative or important to how and why your neighbor or I choose to live our lives. Are our choices any less valuable than yours? Who says so? Why?
Fear is what says this is THE Way. Love says there is A way. Love says this is my way and I think it is valuable enough to share. Love also says it is also possible that your way is as valuable as mine. Fear says my way is right and your way is wrong. Love says your way may be right for you and my way may be right for me. Neither one of us can know, especially if we are not prepared to consider the validity of another way.
Fear says, “I know THE TRUTH”; Love says, “I know a truth, or even, I know my truth.” Wouldn’t you rather be in love than be in fear? Love creates; fear destroys. Love uplifts; fear denigrates.
Why choose fear? It cripples you. It prevents you from knowing and becoming all that you are capable of being. Choose love. It empowers you.
Let’s take a little look at some people who have chosen fear?
There are almost 10 million Jehovah’s Witnesses who believe that only 144,000 people will make it to the Promised Land, to heaven, and somehow they have convinced themselves that their religion is a nutrient and not a toxin. The toxicity they have fed themselves or allowed themselves to be fed has poisoned their spirit to such an extent that they actually take pleasure in believing that 99.9% of their fellow humans are dammed to incredible suffering on the Day of Judgment.
This judgment is predicted to happen on the last day of the world, which, in turn, has been predicted by their spiritual elders as being first, 1914, then 1925, then it was 1975, then 1999. I don’t know about you, but it looks to me like the world is still here. Next day of reckoning coming soon to a pulpit near you. Are you ready? Get ready. Read Watchtower. It will help you to prepare.
These 10 million people all must live in fear of being excluded from that very exclusive club of 144,000 special folks. How they can manage to convince themselves that any one of them deserves heaven holding such toxicity in their hearts, minds and spirits is completely beyond me. How there can be 10 million people who believe this nonsense boggles the mind. What is even funnier?they still try and recruit more members, thereby reducing their odds of gaining entry.
Ok. It is admittedly easy for one to see the idiocy of this and to make fun of it, but ask yourself this: Do some of these same exclusionary attitudes exist in your favorite religion?
Will only those who buy into your particular belief system make it to heaven, achieve nirvana or escape the cycle of reincarnation?
Look closely? it all sounds like some marketing promotion for a special event; only members of the ‘XYZ-In club’ can qualify to get tickets or passes to this event. Become a member today and you will qualify. Sign up now, operators are waiting. Have your credit card handy. Sign up today and save, no, make that-get saved.
Now, it is highly likely you are getting offended. But why? What difference does it make to you if I call into question what you believe to be The Truth? Unless it unsettles you because, deep down, you know that you may have bought into a pack of lies.
If what I believe and say is likely to put me amongst the dammed instead of the blessed, then you should be saying, ‘Good riddance. At least that is someone else who is not competing for one of those 144,000 reserved spots and the special attention of that big judgmental guy who lives in the clouds.’
Come on, get a life. Wake up!
Do you hold your religious beliefs simply because you are afraid of dying? Do you attempt to find meaning for your life in some theology about an afterlife simply because you don’t have the courage to assign purpose and meaning to your life now while you are alive? Do you really need some stern parental image of divinity that doles out love and rewards according to your adherence to some set of rules? Do you hope for reward in some imagined afterlife instead of going about living an abundant and joyful life right now?
Grow up. Get a life.
If you want to be at one with the divine and to exist within the sacred, why put it off for some imagined future. Be sacred now. Be divine now. Well, you already are; but wake up to your divinity and your sacredness. Get reverent now. Why wait?
———-
This article is excerpted from the eBook, Get A Life! To obtain this entire eBook now, go to http://LeslieFieger.com/success-store.htm
© Leslie Fieger. All rights reserved worldwide.
Leslie is the author of The DELFIN Knowledge System Trilogy: The Initiation, The Journey and The Quest plus many more success publications.”
Well..it says a lot about where and how Anthony has been thinking since getting turfed out of the penty church scene…(and being gay….I have full sympathy for him over the trauma he went through with that)….but it sounds a warning to MCC churches in Sydney and Brisbane who’ve embraced him…..(and fair enough)….that those churches should exercise some spiritual discernment…and not allow Anthony to preach until he abandons this Delfin bullshit.
July 21st, 2006 at 3:52 pm
I can’t think of a word that’s awful enough to describe this. I think I now understand what the bible means by doctrines of demons. Anyone who thinks they can call themselves Christian and take any of this on board is either schizoid (at least)or a rampant con man. So evil, injustice, misery etc only exist because we’ve chosen to invite them into our lives (or something)? If we can all sit around and envision our reality to be whatever we want, how did we end up with this one? I think St Paul said it best, something like if in this world only we have hope we are of all men most wretched ..
July 21st, 2006 at 3:54 pm
And Luke, maybe this really means we were fathered by the stars?
well, it’s as logical as anything else he says
July 21st, 2006 at 4:10 pm
It’s the Da Vinci Code for Mammonites.
July 21st, 2006 at 4:15 pm
Hey Lancerino,
I can certainly understand your concerns re AVB’s inflluences & i don’t disagree with them. Indeed it is intersting that both Anthony & Pat both resorted to Life Coaching / New Age Positivity training speaking circuit when they left the church & it is curious that it is such a close “culture-fit” betwen the two industries. Like any Pentecostal Preacher has an alternative back-up in New Age Life Coaching.
But i can tell you that i have met AVB & shared a drink, attended one of his meetings, even went to church with him once, i have also read his book cover to cover more than once & the thing is this, ……
If gays are ever going to be able to attend mainstream Pente churches in this country, it will almost certainly be through the work he is doing right now. Make no mistake, he has the ear of some of the major key players (BH included) & is relationship-building on behalf of all of us Gay Christians.
I’m not defending him, I’m just saying, someone has to do it, he is, & you know…..let’s take the good with the ummm…..concerning.
Having said that, of course any christian public figures theology & influences are up for scrutiny. Goes without saying.
July 21st, 2006 at 4:19 pm
Post #455 is so close to Hill$ong’s teachings that it is actually quite numbing. I’m not sure what to do about this. Do I alert all of my Hill$ong “Friends” to this?
That is really very disturbing!
What are other ex Hill$ong people’s thoughts on the Delfin system and Hill$ong’s teachings?
July 21st, 2006 at 5:17 pm
Reverino…I think AVB’s overtures to Houston and Co. will ultimately be a failure…(oh my goodness…I’m speaking words of negativity into AVB’s life…I must be evil..)
And this is why…
Believe it or not…Houston and the AOG people have..in their mind…. a biblical framework for what they believe.
It’s a bullshit biblical framework..and it takes bible passages out of context..and connects with their own greed and materialism and various other bullshit beliefs…and completely ignores biblical passages that refute their beliefs…..but in their (distorted) mind….it’s a biblical framework.
So…for them (Houston and co.) to change their thinking….they would need to be presented with a convincing biblical framework for understanding homosexuality and gay people…
AVB is not the person who can do that. The best he can come up with is a vague notion that love is supreme..and that we’ve accumulated growing knowledge on the subject since the bible letters were written.
Houston and Co. aren’t going to buy an argument ..that essentially is…”the ‘world’ is right..and you are wrong.
Remember….that Houston is a prick….a narcissistic sociopath who is devoid of empathy for others. He can fake that empathy for the purposes of having the appearance he is expected to have in public situations as a church leader..but he doesn’t experience the emotion of empathy in reality…so AVB’s efforts are doomed to failure.
Brian Houston is not a thinker or a feeler…he’s an entrepreneur….
He doesn’t sit on planes thinking….’gee….I hope gay guy X at church is going OK’……he’s thinking….’how can I build the church and have it impact on nations’.
Gay people don’t build the church as far as he’s concerned….they’re an unwanted distraction.
Houston is just humoring AVB..because consultation is part of the ‘look’…that pastors are meant to have. Most pastors do it..but it’s insane to suggest that pastors actually listen…lol.
And geez…..SY ROGERS…who’s MUCH MORE conservative than AVB….hasn’t even been able to get into the Hill$ong network yet.
AVB’s got no chance of being heard.
July 21st, 2006 at 6:19 pm
You may be right.
I must admit, you do always seem to end up being right.
And reading that Delfin stuff, it is the same shit served up through different mediums since The Celestine Prophecies was first published.
I guess i just figured, AVB & BH clearly talk the same language and if BH saw that it might bring more success to have a trained Life Coach & prosperity Thinker with mass-audience speaking experience on his staff in the same way that Pringle realised that Mesiti would be useful to CCC, add to that the fact that Houston would be an innovator & pioneer, approving the first ordained Minister in Pente circles that was gay, say if AVB had a clean-cut partner that was presentable?
I’m not talking now but in 15-20 years?
You can’t see it?
What if Pente Churches were looking for a poster-child to bring in all the DINK Gay Christian couples with their disposable incomes ready to donate to the cause? (& dance, & sing & produce their stage effects).
You think they’ll ignore thst untapped source of wealth forever?
I mean, i know it’s not biblical as far as they’re concerned right now, but neithers half of what they do! Heck, the Toronto Blessing was an abomination but that was accepted with open arms.
Am i being completely naiive?
July 21st, 2006 at 7:45 pm
Lance, great posts today … that Delphin stuff #455 has permeated the Contemporary Church … Amazing Achievers, etc
July 21st, 2006 at 9:08 pm
NEIL #462
Friends are friends and, as such, I know how you can feel for them. I’ve been in your situation before but, as much as you love them, a generoeus beating with a piece of 2×4 wouldn’t wake them up. WARNING, WARNING WILL ROBINSON!!
July 21st, 2006 at 10:31 pm
This is an interesting conversation - why is it that people involved in these Groups (including ‘friends’) don’t want to face the reality?
I have a friend, whom has been shown all the evidence (including the stuff that I can’t post on the Internet) and says “mate, I know one day I will have to face this stuff - but I am just not ready yet”. Others just don’t want to atlk about it.
I thought Christainity was all about persuing the Truth?
It seems community and relationships is more important…this is not ‘radical commitment ‘ at all. It’s plain weak.
July 21st, 2006 at 10:48 pm
Lionfish,
I respect your wisdom/selectiveness in entering a debate. I’ve attached a dummy spit posted on another thread regarding some similar themes.
********************************
“There is nothing mad pastors won’t do in the name of Jesus”.
Well guys, I’ve got one that takes the cake. It’s been a while since I’ve visited signposts and I’m happy to see a healthy dose of sarcasm in the $ sign in Hill$ong.
I’ve just attended a regional conference which I can’t really elaborate on for fear of losing my job but, having passively endured the usual backslapping and “serious concerns” crap that is trotted out, one person reported on yet another instance of Hill$ong’s involvement in the welfare environment, most likely with Government endorsement.
I’ve given up on profanity, so I’ll resort to the alternative. These bloodsucking !!#**#* parasites are now endeavouring to mooch in on those who fall victim of the IR reforms and end up on the dole. The Federal Government is initiating a scheme whereby those who find themselves unemployed will be able to access financial counselling to assisst them through their woes. Guess who sticks their hand up??
To offer financial counselling in this state you need to be accredited, Hill$ong are not.
To provide financial counselling to the unemployed in whatever circumstances, accredited financial counsellors will be given $650.00 per person. This is probably a bit over the top for even fair dinkum financial counsellors, but Hillsong!!!!!
The Government is still in judicial proceedings against Hill$ong for their foray into “helping” the indigineous community and now we have this.
I’ll go one step further.
A complaint came across my desk some months ago where a “brother” and his friend attended a church service of a Pacific Island congregation and spruiked the benefits of getting a home loan through their “christian” organisation. Part 2 of the sales pitch occurred in the Hill$song auditorium (dare I think there may have been some clandestine affiliation) where quite afew apparently signe up and paid a “deposit”.
All were ripped off, never to seee their money again.
Good on you Hill$song, whatever time I have I will devote to exposing scum like you.
Long time since I’ve lost my temper but… quietly rioting
July 22nd, 2006 at 4:40 pm
“I guess i just figured, AVB & BH clearly talk the same language and if BH saw that it might bring more success to have a trained Life Coach & prosperity Thinker with mass-audience speaking experience on his staff in the same way that Pringle realised that Mesiti would be useful to CCC.”
Mesiti can add value to CCC by adding dollars….as Mesiti is one of the few pastors who’s as audacious as Pringle in brazenly preaching the pure greed gospel.
I’m not sure that AVB can add anything to Hill$ong that they don’t already have access to…and Hill$ong has everything to lose if word gets out that a poofta is preachin’….particularly in the US where a lot of Hill$ong’s music is bought.
I can’t see Houston taking that risk.
“add to that the fact that Houston would be an innovator & pioneer, approving the first ordained Minister in Pente circles that was gay, say if AVB had a clean-cut partner that was presentable?”
I think the Gene Robinson fallout ended any possibility of that…especially in Sydney where Houston would most likely be sympathetic to Jensen’s position.
“What if Pente Churches were looking for a poster-child to bring in all the DINK Gay Christian couples with their disposable incomes ready to donate to the cause? (& dance, & sing & produce their stage effects).
You think they’ll ignore thst untapped source of wealth forever?”
I think they would see it as the potential to lose far more dollars than they gain.
And Houston would suddenly find himself being being ‘overlooked’ on the lucrative speaking circuit…..no more invites to speak in other churches and receive thousands in love offerings….etc…
“Am i being completely naiive?”
Just hopeful…nothing wrong with that….
July 22nd, 2006 at 4:41 pm
“A complaint came across my desk some months ago where a “brother” and his friend attended a church service of a Pacific Island congregation and spruiked the benefits of getting a home loan through their “christian” organisation. Part 2 of the sales pitch occurred in the Hill$song auditorium (dare I think there may have been some clandestine affiliation) where quite afew apparently signe up and paid a “deposit”.
All were ripped off, never to seee their money again.”
We’re now moving into the realm of clearly illegal conduct in which authorities have no option but to take action.
July 25th, 2006 at 6:11 pm
“Brian Houston was here in Christchurch a while back and I went along to hear him speak, he was preaching in the church where I got married, the New Life Church, which is now called the City New Life, all very smart and trendy, Purpose Driven, Prosperity Gospel preaching etc.
Houston was going on and on and on about money and how much God wants you to financially prosper and anyways about three quarters of the way through Brian’s speech he said, “None of you here are against the prosperity gospel are you?”
I jumped up out of my seat straight away and said “I am.” I reproved and rebuked him as a false teacher in front of all the people there and the bouncers there grabbed me and manhandled me and physically threw me out of the place and told me to never come back????
The church I was married in. Lovely eh? God forgive them. That’s the result of the rotten doctrines they teach, brother. They are foul corrupt dictators, white washed tombs full of dead men’s bones. Little Hitler’s!!! They have their day of Judgment coming, they will have their day in Court, God’s Court. It is God’s elect who will see the wolves in sheep’s clothing.”
From http://simplyagape.blogspot.com/2006/06/gods-millionaires.html
July 25th, 2006 at 10:58 pm
ANd for those who dont really undertsand the Propserity Doctrine … here it is as blatant as it gets:
If you feel you have a call on your life to make a significant financial impact for the Body of Christ, or
You do not want to struggle financially anymore and want to know how to have a financial breakthrough…
Sign up today for the Kingdom Millionaire Intensive! It will change your Life!
http://www.kingdommillionaire.com/kmi.html
July 25th, 2006 at 11:18 pm
“This event projects you five years in the future to the year 2011… We will roll out the red carpet and formally introduce you to the world, because you have achieved your Kingdom Millionaire status.”
http://www.kingdommillionaire.com/kmi.html
Mark it in your diaries everyone…..we’re going to hold them to it in 2011.
July 26th, 2006 at 3:33 pm
Well it’s me again (Kevin) - hello Lance - have you missed me? probably not would be my guess. Anyways…. just stopped in to let you all know that I am heading for Nashville tennessee next week to see Darlene and Brian - say hi to Joyce and comapny . Leaving the checkbook at home though. Okay, I confess, I proabably will take it.
July 26th, 2006 at 3:47 pm
It requires a certain level of stupidity…being a pastor who’s been presented with a mountain of evidence about the harmful and heretical goings-on at Hill$song..and then travel halfway across the country to see the Hill$songers in concert…like you’re some giggling schoolgirl trying to catch a glimpse of Robbie Williams.
July 26th, 2006 at 4:32 pm
Yeah, well… it’s one of those addictions. By the way, you might want to be careful using the $ sign in HS - Rev has adopted it for his new baptismal network and this may ce copyright infringemant.
July 26th, 2006 at 9:14 pm
What’s wrong with Robbie Williams?
I have tickets to take my harem with me in Sydney…..
July 26th, 2006 at 11:29 pm
At last, found a pastor prepared to speak out about the money-mentality gripping the church in Perth and beyond.
http://www.churchinperth.com/site/adetails.asp?ArticleID=1184
“Warning: Traders in the House of God
One of the things that turned my stomach recently, and I trust that it was a divine thing, was going to the web site of a popular church in our city and finding prominently there on the Index page the heading “Product”, that is, things for sale. This unpleasant incident provoked me to further prayer and the reflections below. My sense is that what I raise here is something that God is very unhappy about and is something that requires a warning for the church in Perth.
One of the more disturbing features of Christian practice in some of its more contemporary forms is the emphasis on money. The well – known joke that some churches preach two sermons, the second being: “you need more money and the way to get it is to give to the storehouse of God”, exemplifies this trend. The problem is this situation is not funny. Amongst other things, the New Testament offers no precedent for such an appeal. Jesus was supported privately (Luke 8:1 -3). The “collection” that Paul promoted was neither for his ministry nor for a congregation that he planted but for the “poor” in Jerusalem (Acts 24:17; Rom 15:26; 1 Cor 16:1- 3; 2 Cor 8 - 9 ).
This tendency to focus on wealth is unfortunately not at all new. One of the distinguishing features of the evil kings of Judah was that they opened up the Temple to idols (1 Ki 15:12; 16:13; 2 Ki 17:12 etc.). These idols were worshipped, not for their inner goodness, but for their ability to meet the needs of their followers. They were gods of military might and economic advancement.
The prophets continually railed against these practices with an intense fiery passion: “within me there is something like a burning fire shut up in my bones” (Jer 20:9). In this context the word of God was “like a fire… and like a hammer that breaks the rocks to pieces.” (Jer 23:29). Idols drew out from God a wrath that was not satisfied until Israel was a nation no more and had to be revived by the miracle of the return from exile (Jer 22:8 - 9).
This was not a strange or extreme reaction but something that reflected the very nature of God. Because God had always put his “eyes and heart” (2 Chron 11:16) in the Temple, it was his own very being that was wounded by the presence there of “abominable” and “loathsome” idols (Ezek 8:5- 18). His wounded holiness must rise up and destroy all that defiles the land. “Therefore, thus says the LORD, assuredly I am going to bring disaster upon them that they cannot escape; though they cry out to me I will not listen to them.” (Jer 11:11).
Even though Israel never returned to visible idol worship after its exile to Babylon, the hearts of the people remained unchanged. Outwardly haters of idolatry, the religious rulers of Jesus’ day were bound by the love of money. Some of the Jews of the time twisted the law of God in order to control their finances (Mark 7:11). The most biblically learned men, the Pharisees, were “lovers of money” (Luke 16:14) and the rulers of the Temple, the Sadducees, were wealthy land owners. In this “money –grubbing” context the death of Jesus is easier to understand.
The Jerusalem Temple was the biggest economic hub of the eastern Roman Empire. The trade that surrounded the Temple through its services and sacrifices for Jews coming from throughout the empire was enormous. So, when Jesus, in typical prophetic fashion, came burning with the “zeal” of the fire of God against idolatry (John 2:17) and upset the money changers (Mark 11:15- 17) the whole economic framework of Judaism was threatened. Perversely, Jesus’ life had to be forfeited (Mark 11:18) because it was reckoned of less worth than the trade in animal sacrifices that he came to replace.
The spiritual rulers of the day refused to see that in the person of Jesus, God himself had come to his house to test the worth of what was practiced there. He tests it and finds it wanting, just as has been prophesied (Mal 3:1). “Who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears?” (Mal 3:2). The red – hot holiness of Christ in the Spirit burned against the synthesis of the spiritual and economic powers of his day. As the prophets of old predicted the destruction of the nation, he likewise knew Jerusalem must be destroyed (Mark 12:9- 12; Luke 23:28- 30). For this vendetta against false worship he was crucified under trumped up charges.
The hold of money over people is exactly the same as the power of visible idolatry. When Jesus said: “you cannot serve both God and money.” (Matt 6:24), he uses “serve” in the sense of “worship”. Spiritually, money can be an object of worship. Paul makes this totally clear when he twice warns Christians, “greed is idolatry” (Eph 5:5; Col 3:5).
Money and religion have always been a potent mix. Simon Magus tried to buy the power of the Holy Spirit and was warned of everlasting destruction for his sin (Acts 8:18 – 22). The letters of the New Testament consistently warn of the love of money, especially among Christian leaders (1 Tim 3:3; 6:10; 2 Tim 3:2; Heb 13:5; 1 Pet 5:2). Early false teachers were characteristically people greedy for gain (1 Tim 6:5; 2 Pet 2:3).
It is impossible to love God purely and at the same time have a comparable emphasis on material prosperity. Sooner or later, either God or money comes to prevail. The early Puritans, John Wesley and many others in the history of Western culture, have sensed that when wealth and spirituality have been fused together as something to be desired it is always money that has in the end prevailed. (The church of Laodicea clearly had this problem Rev 3:14 -22). In “Christian” nations of the West the love of money has led to general spiritual decline, itself a judgement of God upon a rebellious people.
As the standards of godliness and morality drastically decline, sooner or later a godly remnant cries out to the Lord for a visitation of holy power. Eventually, a spiritual awakening occurs, godliness increases the prosperity of a nation and then the cycle seems to repeats itself all over again. The only this that predictably keeps the church free from the plague of money – loving is relentless persecution. For example, some of the house –church leaders in China today are more fearful of the rising prosperity than of the opposition of the state. If this pattern is entrenched in the history of the people of God, where are we today?
I believe that we are in a bad place. For better or worse, I have been in a position to know that Christian personalities and performers can charge up to $10,000 per night. Some preachers will not do a series of sermons without a guarantee of a certain take.
Others insist on the offering. Some will only come on the basis of first class travel and five star accommodation. Not only is there no precedent for this sort of luxury in the lives of Jesus and the apostles, but it sends a very bad message to suspicious pagan Aussie culture.
To my mind, there are evidences of the divine disfavour for this sort of materialism. Why do we hear of miraculous healings in other nations but never seem to credibly witness them in western nations? God does not have any favourites (Rom 2:11; Eph 6:9), so we must be displeasing him by our sin. Someone might say (I am being sarcastic now), they have the miracles but we have the music. Not only would I say, give me the miracles anytime because this is something I know only God can do, but there is not even the mention of music in the New Testament.
Things are even worse than I intimate above. As soon as something great happens in America, or the U.K. or Australia it seems to be “marketed”. Books come out, the church becomes a Christian tourist destination, and the senior pastor starts to tour the world and so on. This is a very long way from the apostolic environment when after Ananias and Sapphira were slain in the Spirit people actually feared to get too close to the apostles (Acts 5:1- 16).
Who is praying for this sort of apostolic anointing to come on the church in Perth? What we really need is not more money but a fire - storm of holiness. We need true priests in the house of God, those who will fearlessly and ruthlessly teach the people the difference between the holy and the unholy, the unclean and the common (Ezek 22:26; 44:23).
Zechariah prophesied that in the coming time of holiness there would no longer be “traders in the house of the LORD of Hosts” (Zech 14:20 -21). I long for that day! Do you?
Let me issue a warning to the church in Perth. When God moves in this city in power he wants to move in a pure and mature fashion, for he is sick to the stomach by bartering in holy things. If the church in this city partakes of the characteristic sins of the culture, allowing the Babylonian spirit of trade for profit to prevail in its midst then the Lord himself will make sure that the characteristic woes of the age prevail even amongst his people (Rev 18: 4- 19). A Pandora’s Box of trouble will flow out of any Perth revival that makes a few people rich and famous.
As I write these final words I am struck by my own slowness. My present experience of pastoral ministry teaches me that already all over this city the people of God are being overcome by the characteristic ills of the age – depression, anxiety, family dysfunction, disease, divorce and so on – that no number of books, videos, tapes, seminars or anything else they pay for seems able to cure. We are already in need of coming out of Babylon.
The only remedy for our idolatry, our love of money, is the cure of the cross, for the cross is God’s place of no compromise, the place where everything that is unclean is destroyed. “Only what the cross cleanses can the Holy Spirit fill.”
July 26th, 2006 at 11:38 pm
I have a friend who still works in the call center at Hill$ong. I rang her and asked if they held a file and if there was anyting interesting on it, They did but she claims there was nothing much written in there. I actually had her delete it, or did she???? IT felt liberating to be finally deleted of their system, or did she???? I am still a synic. DAMN!!!!
July 26th, 2006 at 11:54 pm
From Hill$ong’s privacy policy.
http://www2.hillsong.com/policies/default.asp?pid=452
“You can request access to the personal information that the Church holds about you by contacting the Church’s Privacy Officer as set out below. We will provide you with access to your personal information unless we are legally authorised to refuse your request. We may charge a reasonable amount for providing access.
If you wish to change personal information that is out of date or inaccurate at any time please contact us. After notice from you, we will take reasonable steps to correct any of your information which is inaccurate, incomplete or out of date. If you wish to have your personal information deleted please let us know and we will delete that information wherever practicable.
We may refuse your request to access, amend or delete your personal information in certain circumstances. If we do refuse your request, we will provide you with a reason for our decision and, in the case of amendment, we will note with your personal information that you have disputed its accuracy.”
It’s quite clear in the policy that you can ask Hill$ong to delete your personal information…and they must at least tell you why…if they won’t.