Hillsong article
For those that inquired about the Hillsong article which appeared in the Weekend Australian, the Australian (or more particularly the copyright owner) has agreed to permit us to publish the article on this site for everyone to access, for a fee about the cost of a pair of sneakers. This is unfortunately outside of our (non-existent) budget for this site. Could people either comment here or drop me an email if you would be willing to chuck in some money to make this available, or alternatively if you don’t think that it is worth it to do. Ta.
July 27th, 2006 at 9:46 am
Post #478. Great post Lance! It’s refreshing to hear another pastor speak out against the direction the church at large is moving with respect to money….
The end does not justify the means. Yes, these large churches do get more money by flogging it and manipulating so hard, but at what cost? It actually pushes cynically Aussies further away and people become more reluctant and skeptical about church (and ultimately God).
It’s just not right or Godly….
July 27th, 2006 at 10:43 am
#480 - sounds like getting info out of Centrelink!! Or an Indian call-centre!!
July 27th, 2006 at 1:31 pm
“The end does not justify the means. Yes, these large churches do get more money by flogging it and manipulating so hard, but at what cost? It actually pushes cynically Aussies further away and people become more reluctant and skeptical about church (and ultimately God).
It’s just not right or Godly…. ”
That beautifully summarises the main reason why I push this so hard here and in other places.
Ultimately Hill$ong makes it that much harder for Australians to take Christianity seriously….
July 27th, 2006 at 3:38 pm
You are exactly right Lance!!
The teaching of the health wealth prosperity doctrine is often the step back to atheism and we can’t let it invasively eat away at Christianity or the church. It should be treated like the cancerous growth it is.
July 27th, 2006 at 3:54 pm
Could people please stop saying I’m right?
I’m trying to be a rogue outlaw here.
July 27th, 2006 at 4:02 pm
ROFL!! Your cover is blown!
now just fasten your desperado mask on a little more securely …
and we will all courteously refrain from telling you how right you are ….
there now .. feel better ?
July 27th, 2006 at 4:55 pm
See..when Homer - the big fat screaming Queen - was here…it was much easier…because nothing you would say could be possibly right.
July 27th, 2006 at 5:07 pm
And then you felt much better?
I guess I’m just not made of outlaw stuff …
(and I’m not game to ask what outlaws are made of, though I could probably make a few guesses)
Just keep those guns blazing
July 29th, 2006 at 4:32 pm
Interesting article on non-orthodox Group dynamics in ‘The west’ today (weekend extra) pp4-5 from an ex-leaders perspective.
Article entitled “How a hippie dream fell apart” by Norman Aisbett
He states:
I dare any Hillsonger to publically question teachings on Tithing or ask for detailed audited finacials for Hillsong Church Inc and LMI Inc and report back to Signposts.
None of us has had any luck.
July 30th, 2006 at 2:51 am
“Susan Gray and Becky Zuercher are fans of motivational Christian author and speaker Joyce Meyer.
They can’t wait to attend the Joyce Meyer Ministries and Hillsong Australia Conference Aug. 3 through Aug. 5 at the Gaylord Entertainment Center in Nashville.
Meyer will speak at 10 a.m. and 7 p.m. Aug. 4 and 2 p.m. Aug. 5. Other conference speakers include Brian Houston, founder of Hillsong Church in Sydney, Australia, and Darlene Zschech……
………The three-day conference is free. People attending are asked to arrive two hours before each session for choice seating and to allow time to peruse the resource tables.”
From http://www.theleafchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060729/LIFESTYLE/607290302/1024
August 2nd, 2006 at 2:01 pm
“As I waited in line for Hillsong to open (and the line went down the road and around the corner and then down that road!) a guy who was down and out came begging. I was the only person to give him money for the food he clearly needed. He looked at me in a weird way because I gave him money. How sad that with THOUSANDS of Christians around, no one else was helping him.
Water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.”
From http://achristian.wordpress.com/2006/07/31/hillsong-london/
August 2nd, 2006 at 3:40 pm
That is the saddest thing I’ve read so far about Hill$ong s so called impact on the community and the “blessed to be a blessing” mantra so often pulled out to justify their ever increasing lust for money
August 2nd, 2006 at 3:49 pm
I agree. Doesn’t it make you want to run after that guy and give him the contents of your wallet (or at least some of it!) and show him that there’s more to following Jesus than being a consumer of spiritual hype?
August 2nd, 2006 at 3:54 pm
right Veritas a definite step towards atheism…
August 2nd, 2006 at 4:11 pm
The democrats want some input by way of an online survey regarding church and government. Their first question is refferring to church as abusiness and tax breaks - have at them my dear ones and let’s let tem know!
http://www.democrats.org.au/survey2/survey/GodGovt_v2/
About | Contact | Membership | Donate | News | People | Policies | Campaigns | Links
SURVEY
God and Government: tell us what you think!
We are interested in your thoughts on what the relationship between religion and government should be. Please take a few moments to answer the questions below. Remember that there’s no right, wrong or ideal response.
1. Currently some churches run commercial businesses as part of their operations. These businesses benefit from the tax breaks that churches are entitled to. Should the commercial businesses run by churches get the same tax breaks as the charitable parts of the church operation?
2. A basic level of religious education (RE) is taught in public schools in Australia. It takes place within school hours under the jurisdiction of the school. Although it is not compulsory most schools have an opt out system, which means that unless parents specifically notify the school that they do not wish their child to be involved then their child will have to attend the RE classes. Should religious education be part of the school curriculum?
3. If yes, should it be compulsory?
4. Should it be opt in or opt out?
5. Should RE be linked to a particular religious faith or should it be more about comparing differing religious beliefs?
6. Should classes in ethics be taught as an alternative to RE?
7. Intelligent design is the idea that the complexity of the universe and living things is best explained as the result of the actions of an intelligent supernatural being, rather than a result of a scientific process such as evolution. Recently politicians have started to argue that this idea should be taught in science classes rather than in religious education. Should intelligent design be taught in schools as an alternative to evolution?
8. If yes, should it be taught in science classes or religious education classes?
9. Currently some public schools in states and territories have publicly funded school chaplains. These chaplains come from a variety of religious backgrounds and provide spiritual support as well as generally play a role in student welfare. Generally they are not required to have any specific qualifications or experience. Should taxpayers money be used to fund school chaplains?
10. Should funding for school chaplains be redirected towards funding for professional counsellors?
11. Should school chaplains be subject to minimum educational qualifications regarding youth work?
12. Currently some religious groups/individual that receive government funding refuse to provide some services based on their own religious beliefs, For example, catholic run hospitals will not perform vasectomies or abortions and some chemists will not stock or supply condoms or the contraceptive pill. There are also government funded pregnancy counselling services that will not refer for abortion and do not make this clear in their advertising. Should hospitals that receive government funding be obliged to provide vasectomies?
13. Should hospitals that receive government funding be obliged to provide abortion services?
14. Should pharmacists that receive government funding be obliged to provide contraception?
15. Should pregnancy counselling helplines which receive government money have to refer for abortion if women ask for a referral?
16. Should pregnancy counselling helplines which receive government money and DO NOT refer for abortion have to make this explicit in their advertising?
17. In which of the following areas do you think government policy has been influenced by religious beliefs
asylum seekers
gambling
welfare
drug and alcohol use
sex education
contraception
euthanasia
stem cell research
gay marriage
same sex relationships
adoption
abortion
war
industrial relations
18. Do you think that politicians who have strong religious beliefs should try to use the political system to turn their religious beliefs into law?
19. Do you think that religious leaders/churches/houses of worship should try to influence government decisions on issues?
20. In the last 10 years, do you think that political leaders in Australia have used religion for their own political purposes?
21. Would you be in favour of legal moves to formalize a separation of church and state in Australia?
22. Should pregnancy counselling helplines which receive government money have to discuss all three options for an unplanned pregnancy - adoption, parenting and abortion?
23. Any further comments?
August 2nd, 2006 at 9:05 pm
I filled in the survey Greg and following is my answer to question 23:
“I would like to see all churches etc have to provide open and clear disclosure of their finances. Some chruches, especially AOG/Hillsong churches will not disclose any meaningful financial information to their members. These churches need to be regulated!
I would also like to see the loop holes tightened which allow chruches like Hillsong and Christian City Church to build a church building on tax deductible contributions. The Tax deductibility is granted based upon the educational college run by the church but the building is used by the college in a very small way. In the very least the deductiblilty should be reduced to the proportion of building and time that is actually used for the college.
Also on the topic of Tax deductiblity, these Hillsong/Christian City Churches run “giver clubs” where you receive certain breakfast meetings, benefits and gifts if you commit to give over a certain amount, for example $10,000. The very fact that these contributors receive something in return for their donation would seem to make the tax deductibilty void.
These funds are raising around $3-$5 million for each Hillsong and Christian City Church each year. That translates into a tax payer contribution of $1.5M to $2.5M for each of these mega churches.”
August 2nd, 2006 at 9:15 pm
Well, It seems that my Hill$ong posts that I wrote for signposts and posted on my myspace blog have hit the mark at Executive Pastor level at Hill$ong….
This is a message posted to me on my myspace page from Joel A’bell - Executive Pastor at Hill$ong Church - Waterloo.
Date: 2 Aug 2006 4:43 PM Flag spam/abuse. [ ? ]
Subject: Sad how you have changed.
Body: Hi Neil,
It’s so sad to see how you have changed.
My only memory of you (until now) was that you were a really nice guy that loved Jesus.
Now it is obvious that you are only committed to tearing down His kingdom.
I feel so sorry for you and pray that somehow you will allow your hard heart to become soft again.
Joel.
August 2nd, 2006 at 9:50 pm
Neil thanks for sharing that mate.
Yeah that’s what these cats do unfortunately.
It’s just another form of character assasination… Somehow because you’ve developed an opinion, a backbone and have also located the neural pathways to the common sense part of your brain this equates to “tearing down the kindgdom”.
Joel A’Bell couldn’t possibly consider the notion that you’re even remotely right because well… that would mean he’d have to relinquish his little castle made of sand and perhaps think for himself. No, best to let Brian and the H.S leadership team do that…
Stay strong Neil and don’t let modern day pharisees get you down!
WIGGY
August 2nd, 2006 at 10:01 pm
This is my reply:
Hi Joel,
Nice to hear from you. I hope everything is going well with your family.
Joel, I am still a really nice guy who loves Jesus with a heart that is softer then ever.
Joel, I am not committed to building a man’s kingdom of buildings.
I am committed to helping people and loving people which is something Hillsong doesn’t do very well if at all - well never with out an agenda. I think I am doing more to build the kingdom of God by helping people, like Jesus did, than by being part of Hillsong RSL Club. (Flashing lights, bad music, take your money).
Quite honestly Joel, I feel sad for you. Do you really think that you are building the kingdom of God via Hillsong? What are you really building?
I assume someone has pointed you in the direction of my blog here. Although, no one has asked me a question. If you want to refute anything I have written or posted please do. I would like to run through all of the arguments.
I was manipulated, brainwashed and spiritually abused in Hillsong by all the behaviour modification teaching. Now that I have escaped I am able to think and see things clearly.
I know from experience, that free thinking and debate are not encouraged in Hillsong but if you would like to run through things with me that would be fine.
I really do wish you the best Joel! I hope you, Julia and the kids are all well and enjoying life.
Talk to you soon,
Have a great day!
Neil
August 2nd, 2006 at 10:20 pm
Neil,
Thanks for sharing that as well.
Joel would write such a letter to Jesus, or John the Baptist - because they were both, like you committed to Truth. They also were accused of blasphemy and being an enemy of ‘the kingdom’. The only Kingdom I read that you criticise is that thiefdom that is a mix of secrecy, legalism, power and finance.
Hillsong and its newtork are not part of orthodox christianity. If they were they would have your best interests at heart.
Joel A’Bell would have contacted you and gone ‘the extra mile’ to answer your questions.
If you have any doubts, just email him and ask him if he is interested in answering questions regarding BH’s conflicting media statements, Russell Kelly’s rebuttal of Brian Houston’s theology of tithing and providing detailed audited financials for all entities relatedto Hillsong.
I would love to hear the response of this Pastor of the ‘Kingdom’.
Further to my post #489, Dr. Sherwood, an ex-cult leader himself remarked in the same article that ‘people in cults do not know that they are in cults’.
Lance helped me think through things and start asking questions when I was in Riverview. (I did not even know it had deep roots in the Word of Faith movement - and at the time I did not even know what it was). Study up people.
These guys now think ‘we are not a cult - we’ve changed’. No Phil Baker refuses to answer simple questions or provide financials at my request.
They have not changed. Lot’s of ‘nice’ people there. People I honestly like - but noone will answer or ask basic questions.
When they were Rhema - they would have said then ‘no - we are not a cult’ and possibly truly believed it then. Same thing now. They would be saying ‘we are not a cult’.
If they want to be orthodox, then they should be humble. Admit their errors and provide answers. Its simple. Just like alcoholics anonomous.
August 2nd, 2006 at 10:32 pm
Any new or prsopective Hillsong or Riverview recruit should read this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_faith
August 2nd, 2006 at 10:39 pm
In Case you missed it:
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_faith
Neil - ask Joel to share his thoughts on the WOF movement.
August 2nd, 2006 at 11:44 pm
Thanks for your support Wiggy and Lionfish.
This guy runs the Waterloo church and I interned/slaved for him at one stage.
It shook me up a bit actually to have the heavy put on me.
I will wait to see if he engages in debate or whether he runs away.
For me, it’s a case of pushing the bully back and waiting to see what happens…
August 3rd, 2006 at 12:07 am
A timely piece of psychological intimidation there by a Hill$ong pastor…because I’ve just this week emailed Maria at Hill$ong to see if they’re going to be putting out any kind of response to the ‘High Cost Of Faith’ article (I think 3 months has been long enough to wait for a response)….and specifically the accounts of psychological intimidation by Hill$ong people outlined in the article.
I’ve received one brief reply from Maria….verifying my identity….
I don’t know if I’m going to get any more than that…but it won’t be through lack of trying.
August 3rd, 2006 at 2:31 am
I’m just wondering now if the punch-up at the Hill$ong Conference has got back to Joel…and the security guard is telling Joel his own version of events…to cover his own arse.
August 3rd, 2006 at 2:33 am
It seems a bit of an out-of-the-blue thing to post on your blog..otherwise..
August 3rd, 2006 at 9:03 am
Neil,
Upon re-read of Joel’s email- all I can say is keep your chin up mate. This response is a typical example of a cult in that the problem lies with those who defect and not the organisation.
Remember, you are NOT the one:
1) Under scrutiny from multiple media sources for dodgy practices
2) Not releasing financials to members
3) Running a religious entertainemntment business that is handed down the family line
4) Teaching dodgy theology that takes from the less fortunate under flase pretenses and flows into a super-Pastors own tax-effective ministry account
5) Having government grants withdrawn for allegedly decieveing aborinal communities.
6) A proponent of the Wordfaith movement.
7) Wriiting unorthodox books - later withdrawn from print.
The problem does not lie with you. Those on the ‘outside’ can clearly see that.
It is not Christianity. It is a Business in the ‘form’ of Christianity that operates like Scientology.
August 3rd, 2006 at 10:33 am
Lance,
Re #505, the guy who grabbed me (DC) is a close friend of Joel’s. DC is in Joel’s “Cell” group. Joel is on BCH’s Cell group. Joel runs the City Church.
It is interesting! Joel struck me as a guy with a heart for helping people. He tried to help out at the Wayside Chapel and really did appear to have a heart for people but he wasn’t supported by BCH. It was like that’s ok of you want to do that but we have a show to run. That is why I responded to him in that same vain to try to appeal to the heart of the man.
Like every one in Hill$ong, he is too busy doing stuff and putting on a show to actually stop and think what is going on.
I hope that he can atleast see that I can have a pure heart for Jesus and be against some things that he and Hill$ong stand for, but I have a feeling that it will be an “us and them” kind of thing.
When I was at the Hill$ong conference, I enjoyed connecting with christians from outside of Hill$ong. So, I paid my $326.00 and took advantage of the “Conference Specials” to register for next year. I have not aimed at going for the teaching but for the fellowship and I thought that was important as I have no church except Signposts and “I do not want to forsake the habit of meeting together”. It will be interesting to see if I receive a refund now or if my registration is cancelled or if I am manhandled at the door next year.
Let’s see how that and Joel play this one out.
August 3rd, 2006 at 10:36 am
Lance,
Re #505, Joel recognises that the demographic Hill$ong is trying to reach use blogs and Myspace and the Internet. He knows it is all out there for his target audience to see. He knows that people in Hill$ong respect me and know I am not a lunatic.
Remember, Hill$ong is all about influence! I am obviously having some kind of influence!
August 3rd, 2006 at 10:52 am
punch up??? what punch up??? tell me what comment no. Lance
and further more, why wasn’t I invited?