Hillsong article
For those that inquired about the Hillsong article which appeared in the Weekend Australian, the Australian (or more particularly the copyright owner) has agreed to permit us to publish the article on this site for everyone to access, for a fee about the cost of a pair of sneakers. This is unfortunately outside of our (non-existent) budget for this site. Could people either comment here or drop me an email if you would be willing to chuck in some money to make this available, or alternatively if you don’t think that it is worth it to do. Ta.
August 5th, 2006 at 6:48 pm
Wiggy, Thanks for taking the trouble to respond to Kevin’s bullshit.
I only had enough energy to muster a shake of the head when he tried to portray Joyce as ’selfless’.
It’s also worth pointing out that the Missouri-based Meyer and the California -based Benny Hinn both share the same financial auditing/accounting firm..the small obscure Stanfield & O’Dell firm in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
“Benny Hinn Ministries is proud to engage the Tulsa, OK firm of Stanfield & O’Dell as their USA auditors.”
“Additionally, we voluntarily undergo annual, independent, legal and financial audits and our financials are available on our web site for anyone to view at http://www.joycemeyer.org. Our 2004 financials are currently available, provided by the independent accounting firm of Stanfield and O’Dell.”
August 5th, 2006 at 11:41 pm
Lance,
Do you think that based on the above - Joyce Meyer fulfill Phil Bakers articulation of “Prosperity” in his recent sermon?
August 6th, 2006 at 4:52 am
Oh my goodness, now you’re asking me to work out how Phil Baker thinks about something in practice as well as in theory.
That’s too difficult because Baker will always do the opposite of what he says he believes or states is important…
Joyce would certainly seem to be someone who would fit his definition of a ‘prosperous’ person…as someone who accumulates wealth in God’s name and gives out a chunk of it… but I’m not aware of Joyce having any direct connection with Revenue Church.
Nope…sorry..it’s anyone’s guess what Baker thinks in practice, as opposed to his espoused theology….because the two always conflict.
(eg. Baker theory and teaching = ‘our books are open’….practice = ‘our books are not open’.. but he continues to believe and teach ‘our books are open’)
Like….I think I’ve got a fair idea now what Phil and Dan believe and teach, because their theory matches their actions…but that’s a useless strategy in trying to figure out a Baker or the AOG types…because the pentys don’t believe what they believe..and they believe what they don’t believe….
That’s why the Hill$ongers avoid interaction with the general public..because deep down they don’t believe what they believe….(they would behave the same way in public situations like speaking in tongues at the footy or loudly singing praise songs at work if they actually believed what they believe)… and when they’re not in church…they act and think pretty much like everybody else ….that is they BELIEVE in (worldliness) what THEY believe that they DON’T believe in (worldliness).
So Baker might believe Joyce is ‘prosperous’…but if she’s not a Revenue Church regular…that could suggest that he doesn’t really believe what he believes about the wonderfulness of people who are ‘prosperous’.
This is not making a lot of sense because you’re essentially asking me to read the mind of a double-minded man….who articulates positions and makes statements that conflict with each other…(for example..the questioning of happy-clappy mindsets on his blog last week…followed by him organising and leading a happy-clappy worship service today at Revenue Church . Which type of mentality does he really believe in? Fucked if I know.)
I am comforted by the fact that God is confused by Phil Baker too.
August 6th, 2006 at 10:15 am
Lance, now I am genuinely confused!
Is Phil Bakers endorsing the tern “Prosperity” as lived out by networked speaking circuit associate Joyce Meyer?
http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/05/02/hillsong-article/comment-page-18/#comment-144341
Is this the prosperous lifestyle to which we all should be aspiring to live in order to serve God and live ‘large lives’?
Is this really “PROSPERITY” in action?
August 6th, 2006 at 1:08 pm
it’s hardly worth the effort -but here goes.
Joyce meyer did give a 20 minute offering sermon today - showed the video’s and pulled the heartstrings - giving, generously - maybe even till it hurts - not a LOT of pressure - but it was about the money.
August 6th, 2006 at 1:17 pm
Oh, i forgot to mention, the entire Saturday offerings are for children’s ministry/orphanages in India - 100% goes there. 40% of the kids in these places have aids or are HIV+, 80% are orphans. she needs 62 million dollars to do this a year, so she says anyway. In fact she said all of her Saturday offerings will go there from now on… did i mention she was wearing new shoes and even had jewelry on - the hypocrite.
Wiggy, she may live in splendor, but hey mate you probably do too, compared to some of these kids.
oh yeah, I met some of her overpaid staff that coordinates missions work in Asia, what a servant of the Lord. She was in Rwanda 2 weeks ago working with children they support there …She was probably using the trip to Rwanda as a psuedo vacation, don’t you think, Rwanda is the new Bali for vacation parasites…paradise. Oh, that blonde singer from Hillsong was there too - vacationing in Rwanda!!! Hypocrites!
August 6th, 2006 at 1:22 pm
Cults are usually dangerous even when they feed orphans…
in the background I hear Elvis singing..
We can’t go on together
With suspicious minds
And we can’t build our dreams
On suspicious minds
Does Rick Ross have a ministry doing anything constructive?
August 6th, 2006 at 1:25 pm
Ahh..Lionfish..you’re asking me what ‘I’ think about Joyce Meyer…(because I haven’t got a clue how Phil Baker would think)..
Joyce Meyer is prosperous in the same way that Kenneth Lay was prosperous.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Lay
“A memorial was held a week after his death at the First United Methodist Church in Houston, attended by nearly 1,200 guests including former president George H. W. Bush. The speakers who touched on Lay’s conviction were unanimous in their defense of Lay; former Enron President and “longtime friend” Mick Seidl spoke, describing Lay as a “straight arrow — a Boy Scout, if you will — who lived by Christian-Judeo principles,” adding “I am saddened he will be remembered for the Enron indictment and trial,” and “An overzealous federal prosecutor and the media have vilified a good man. It was total character assassination.”
The IRS is after Joyce..and I suspect they’ll eventually get her….even though Christians are too stupid to realise that Joyce Meyer and Kenneth Lay have been big fat frauds..who’ll tell all sorts of lies to get your money.
August 6th, 2006 at 3:26 pm
I went to (orthodox) Church this morning and the lesson was from James Ch1.
This verse stood out:
.
Just thought it was coincidental.
August 6th, 2006 at 3:31 pm
Kevin,
I don’t know if Rick Ross does anything (as you say) “constructive. That’s between him and God and any beneficiaries of his deeds.
I commend Joyce Meyer, hillsong, International Church ofChrist, Scientology and SDA’s for all the work they do with orphans around the world. I really do.
But their good works, do not ‘make amends’ for thier dodgy and dangerous teaching. Simply, they do not teach the Truth.
There is a verse somewhere that states ‘Satan masqueardes as an Angel of light’…
August 6th, 2006 at 4:36 pm
Kevin - it’s great that Joyce Meyer is using some of her vast resources to feed and provide for orphans. Like Lionfish I commend her for that.
However as Lionfish said this does in no way excuse her for teaching and preaching error and deception.
You cannot seem to refute this…
You then try and swing this around back onto me by suggesting I am living some opulent lifestyle in comparison to Orphans? Just how does that add up? I am not besmirching anyone for living well Kevin nor do I have a problem with wealth. However, the way in which we obtain that wealth is the issue Kevin. A mafia hit man may be wealthy but his profession requires that he earns his income via an unscriptural means…
It’s same deal with Prosperity teachers Kevin, you cannot show me one scripture that says that a minister must be wealthy to be effective for God. Infact, wealth is more often that not seen as a hindrance to the gospel. Jesus was sold to the Pharisees for what Kevin? Yes thirty pieces of silver, Christ is always sold out for financial gain. Nothing has changed…
I am a professional musician Kevin and do not earn mega-bucks or live in a home even remotely resembling Joyce’s family “Estate”.
I do not own my own home nor do I have a garage that can be independently heated and cooled and can hold up to eight cars…
The real issue here is whether or not Joyce Meyer is living the kind of life exemplified by the gospel. Is she living by the the guidelines set out by the Early church? Is she like Paul willing to say “I have used none of these things” and “What then is my reward? That proclaiming the gospel I may make the gospel of Christ free, so as not to use fully my authority in the gospel” (1 Cor. 9.15, 18)
Kevin you can wax philosophical all you want but you cannot scripturally support Joyce Meyer’s so life of so called “dying to self”.
WIGGY
August 6th, 2006 at 9:45 pm
Job died to self… and God restored his riches to him. Money - either having it or not, is not a sign someone has died to self. Wigster, you do make that as your point. See wig, yuo are comparing yourself to Joyce’s lifestyle and you are saying she has Too much and is therefore not spiritual. Well instead of comparing you to her, I merely changed the comparison model and compared you with the really poor. The ones she is helping. So it’s all about the way you compare yourself as to whether you are justified in your lifestyle.
Another small ponit. WHO SAYS that the early church is our absolute model. if it is, and ifyou are in that model, you do not even own a house or any possesions. You sold all and given it to an apostle over your life who distributed all of your resources to the poor and the rest of the church. The ealy church did things that fit the culture they were in and the time they lived in. no where are we told to maintain their lifestyle or even that their lifestyle was “the” correct one. It’s what they did, or had to do to launch out or for survival sakes. ( the distribution of all YOUR money would make them a cult in the modern day)
August 6th, 2006 at 10:20 pm
annanias a Saphira died becasue they lied to the Holy Ghost (by lying to the apostles) about giving their all for the Church. They held back PART and died. They were not commanded to give ALL. But somewhere somehow, the pressure to give, and get notoriety for their giving ALL came. Obviously the early church had a way of letting you know how much everyone else was giving, perhaps to inspire you to give also, or else they would not have been wanting to be known as great givers also. Again, this would make the early church a cult, because they coereced people to give ALL their possessions. In fact, I believe they had the reputation from the jews and the Romans as being a cult.
Early chruch, joyce Meyer and Hillsong - all cults.
August 6th, 2006 at 10:59 pm
Interesting conversation Kevin.
The question is why was this ‘give all away to the community’ so short lived?
By the time St Paul was on the scene people still had their own houses, and were told to give a proportion of their income as they had purposed on their hearts, and for the ‘poor saints in Jerusalem’.
Anyway - did the early Church coerce people to give ALL their possesions away - or was that the Holy Spirit?
it’s seems the early churches experiment in socialism may not have of been sustainable.
But I am with you on the point that the early church is not our absolute model.
Difference between early Church, Joyce & Hillsong?. Joyce and Hillsong end up billionairres - Early Church Leaders all end up crucified or dipped in crucible of hot oil or in prison.
Its not how they start out - its where they end up that counts.
August 6th, 2006 at 11:48 pm
I wonder why people in the capitalist, consumer driven west seem so quick to blame the socialism of the early church for the problems in Jerusalem. Could it maybe have anything to do with the fact that they were being thrown in prison, beaten, executed, disqualified from jobs, and generally persecuted? Well, maybe, but it was probably the fact that they were living communally.
ofcourse it was
rev
August 7th, 2006 at 12:04 am
Rev.
I was Lionfishing for a bite on that one. I was expecting kev but reel the Rev in!
August 7th, 2006 at 12:27 am
Well aren’t you clever
rev
August 7th, 2006 at 5:16 am
Kev doesn’t bite so easily
proving that rev must be the sucker! 
:)
August 7th, 2006 at 5:24 am
Joyces life ain’t over with yet - she may wind up dipped in chocolate .. hot chocolate though. Wasn’t the early church really considered a cult? The early church didn’t pray grace and mercy over saphira - they actually set her up to die. They could have said “Look Saph, Annanias died because he lied to the Holy Spirit - we know what happened here, so don’t lie to us - for your own good”. Didn’t do that - they gave her a chance to lie, and they had it in their power to help her out, but didn’t.
It never was commanded to give all - but for Anny and Saphy to want to have the recognition, then the giving had to be commoin knowledge. I tend to think it was the holy Spirit that inspired to give - then and now.
I want to relate another Story to you that blew me away -see my next post.
August 7th, 2006 at 5:40 am
One of my former mentors left the pastorate here to be a missionary in an Arab country (nameless for his family’s protection). He was home last week and I had bereakfst on Saturday july29 with him. he told me of the work they are doing in the middle east and how the international church and the local underground church is doing. When we were done I asked him what I could do, since our church doesn’t have the money to do what he needed.
he said they needed Bibles and Study/theology books in Arab, Farsi and othe languages, as his church has many Africans. I left our meeting thinking we would buy an occasional book or two and send them to him.
He specifically asked for Joyce Meyer materials, because she is very popular in his country, especially with the Muslims. He said this is soooo strange becasue they are a completely male dominated society.
Well… at the joyce meyer/HS conference, she just happened to have brought her coordinator for the Arab ministries. I made my way to him and, long story short - Joyce Meyer Ministries is going to underwrite the books my freind needs. In all the languages - so underground pastors can have more to work with.
So, I know there are probs with joyce and Brian - theology wise and even in the way people have been dealt with. They should correct these situations, and probably won’t. But also remember there are two sides to every story. I only know what I read from Geoff and others about brian and Hillsong - I do not doubt any of them. What a great thing it would be for Brian to take the inititive and bring healing. And I freely admit it probably won’t happen. One of my friends in the circle has just left also. The AoG is not a great place to leave, unless you are dead. i have left them to start churches only to have my name killed by them. been there, done that. But today, i have forgiven them, and have actully been back to preach to them, in their place. I do not agre much with the Asemblies - or WoF, but I can work with them for jesus sake. becasue it is ALL ABOUT HIM - not us.
August 7th, 2006 at 9:15 am
Kev, two issues:
I think that is a horrible take on that scripture, which I just preached on last night (weird that?) It is pure speculation. And when people speculate with such a negative point of view it really bothers me.
Secondly, this idea that well if you give away some books, then you are generous, and therefore can live as oppulently as you want is in my opinion quite wrong. Now before I get accused of being jealous there are two scenarios possible here. I used to make a lot of money as a decorative painter. So I worked less, did not change my lifestyle, and committed to giving more of my life and time to ministry for free.
The second way is like Brian Warren, the guy has made more money than any preacher in recent history as far as I know. He has not changed his lifestyle either, and gives ninety percent of his income away. To continue to champion the idea that God approves of people living in splendour while half the world is dying because they can’t get clean drinking water or proper medication is just plain wrong. That complex that family lives in costed well over ten million dollars. They could have gotten five housed on a “normal” street for under a million dollars. And given nine million away, and still be living far more comfortably than me and any of my friends. How people can worship a homeless man and fly around in private jets, in custom made suits is beyond me. I feel guilty for the cricket bat my wife bought me, half price, for my fortieth birthday.
And please don’t tell me, that I am rich compared to most of the people in the world. It is true, but the arguement doesn’t fly at all. I make less money than I could as a tradesman with my experience as a plasterer and a roofer. I am not calling everyone to live dirt poor, but just reasonably. If our treasures are not to be stored up here, why do we need more than one room per person in our homes?
rev
August 7th, 2006 at 10:06 am
How about 1 room per family as our home. Again, where and who draws the line? You have drawn lines for you, fair enough that i shouldn’t compare your wealth with those who do not have it. How then can you compare your wealth to Joyce Meyer? or anyone for that matter. Her income was 250K and her book royalties far out weigh that - which goes to the ministry.
As far as the book points - well maybe her giving the books away is no big deal to you. I just got an e-mail from the missionary - it said “thanks a million.” it is a big deal to him and the people he will teach with it.
Also, I think you missed the point entirely. The point is that I did not have the resources to help my freind - but god through a series of unseen events - sending my freind home, Joyce bringing her man in, Darlene/BH going to Nashville with Joyce Meyer ( I would not have gone that far to see Joyce only) - only to have me there in a building with 15,000 other people and I get to the only guy in the place who has the resources to help. And he does. it’s a GOD thing.
Honestly Rev, if the same thing had happened for you, I’d be shouting God’s Praise, Why is it so hard to rejoice with someone else’s good news??
Y’all gotta take a look at how you respond to something just because of some erroneous doctrine - which is not damnable heresy - such as universalism - that some of you ( I can’t remember your exact position). You should be attacking - a LOT more than PD. You say this isn’t about money with you all - But I think it is. Unversalism will teach people that they are saved - no need to repent or turn to Jesus - just feel God’s love.
Since 90% is the acceptable stanadard - I would say that she lives on close to that amount. But it is a moot point. There is no set standard it is between her and God and we have no right to condemn her or anyone becasue they have money. You judge Joyce Meyer based on money - hers -because compared to her you are not as well off. But you can’t be compared to someone poorer than you? because that is not fair. H
Here i s the danger of the whole smeer campaign - and I have let other people who were close to me stop me from supporting Joyce becasue of other appearnat misdeeds. (Which I repent of)……………………
Someone may stumble across this blog someday and read the judgements you make about this ministry god has given her, and they may STOP supporting the ministry that God has told them to give to because of judgement.
Ro 14:4 - Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Finally, It would be fair to judge you compared to others with less if you comapre yourself to others with more, becasue the same measure you use to be judged with, shall be measured back to you.
August 7th, 2006 at 11:21 am
I rejoice for you bro, and I rejoice for the missionaries, but I do not let those rejoicings then turn into some misguided attempt to justify someone clearly not following the way of Jesus. And yes I do have a right to condemn someone who puts themselves as an example of how a Christian is meant to live, and then does the opposite of what Jesus did.
Yes you can judge me if you want, I have no problems standing up to your judgements. The difference between me and Joyce is I continuously put myself in “worse” conditions for the gospels sake and she uses it to enrich herself. The difference between me and her is I tell others to make sacrifices and not store up treasures for themselves on earth which is what Jesus said, and she tells people that God will bless you with treasures on earth if you are a good follower of Jesus, which is heretical teaching. I fall short of living up to the ideal set by Jesus, but I do not teach others to renounce Jesus teaching and follow the God of this age, who’s name is mammon.
And I am judged by the same standard I judge Joyce by, well I am fine with that. She is a worldly woman.
rev
August 7th, 2006 at 1:41 pm
Hmm, in regards to “WHO” …..
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
The New Testament was inspired by God, and the early church is recorded in the NT.
I don’t think anyone has stated that the early church is our ‘absolute’ model, however considering that ‘church’ in the NT is what God ‘brought about’ (2 Tim 3:16) to be recorded for us, then are we to completely ignore the ‘early church’ as recorded in the NT ?
Further to this, if one realises just how far away from the early church ‘example’, the ekklesia has strayed, by introducing pagan practices over the last 1700 years, they would have a better understanding of what the early church REALLY is.
NT church did not have any heirarchy either, which is a huge difference to todays ‘church’. This is because a number of words have been mistranslated, and resulted in the notion of positional/heirarchical authority.
The following source - “Who
is your Covering” - p39
Even the word “office” in Romans 11:13 , should have been translated “service” (diakonia).
How did this happen ? It’s a bit of a long story, but here is the short version. The King (James) acted in the capacity of the head of the Anglican church, a church which espoused the wedding of the Church and the State. This is why the KJV reflects Anglicanism’s hierarchical/institutional presuppositions. (Source, same book - pages 62/63).
It also appears that the Greek word diakonos would be better translated as ’servant’.
This puts a completely different perspective on the use of titles, positions and ‘office’, as is a pattern today.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:51 pm
Oh I might point out one more thing Kev, my standard that I put up was not my standard. I actually live under that standard. I am part of a family of four, and we live in a three bedroom one bathroom house, that we do not own. Oh, and we share this house with a single man from our church to share the rent. For six years before coming here we (family of four) lived in a one room apartment. Before that we rented two bedrooms in someone elses home. We always have lived in the working class area’s, and lived well under the poverty line established for the western world.
I don’t say everyone should live like I have. I say everyone should live with restraint. Is there any restraint shown by Joyce’ lifestyle?
rev
August 7th, 2006 at 2:39 pm
Yes
August 7th, 2006 at 2:51 pm
Kevin you are incorrect in your application of Romans 14.4
Paul is talking about inconsequential matters in that chapter such as eating meats sacrificed to idols and observance of holy days. In these matters no, we do not judge others. I guess a modern day application of this would be whether or not one listened to non-christian music, had a nose piercing or dressed in a gothic like manner. These are not matters of spiritual life and death, just personal preference based on one’s conscience, feelings and general attitude.
Paul however was quite clear that we do indeed judge matters of false teaching within the church -
“For what is it to me also to judge the ones outside? Do you not judge those inside?” 1 Cor. 5.12
And the apostle John in 1 John 4.1
“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are from God; for many false prophets have gone forth into the world”
Kevin as Paul states in 1 Cor 5.6 “your boasting is not good…”
A little leaven (deception ie; name it and claim it, blab it and grab it) will leaven the whole lump, hence the need to speak out against it and name it for what it is.
Kevin what do you have to say to the scriptures relating to finance presented by the Rev over in the “Hillsong Conference” thread?
WIGGY
August 7th, 2006 at 3:18 pm
I have a question that’s been buzzing around my head.
If you are part of a dysfunctional family….it’s fairly standard practice to write-off some of the strange goings-on by family members as ‘normal’.
For example….my cousin…who was about 10 years old …..she killed a family dog by throwing it against a wall.
It turned out she was angry about being sexually abused by her now late grandfather.
Generally..the rest of the family turned a blind eye to the animal cruelty and the sexual abuse…because in this dysfunctional branch of the family…it was yet another ‘normal’ tale of abnormality.
I’m wondering if those lifers in the church…particularly the AOG branch….view the financial dodginess…the affairs…the bullying and intimidation as a ‘normal’ part of ‘normal’ church life…. and have no concept of church life being any different.
This certainly seems to come out a lot in Kevin’s writings.
For those who were in the Hill$ongs and the Christian City Churches….particularly if you grew up in church life….did the abnormal behaviour seem ‘normal’ at any stage…because dysfunctionality was the norm?
I mean….it’s ‘normal’ for the senior pastor to throw a tantrum and tear shreds off the worship team…….isn’t it?
That’s just what happens in our ‘church family’…
August 7th, 2006 at 3:44 pm
i think your onto somethin lance..
in my experience being an ingratiating sycophant is truley normal in these churches and the more you are the more your likely to be put on staff.. no matter how little talent or knowledge you have
August 7th, 2006 at 3:54 pm
I think you have a good point there Lance.
Certainly some of the “abnormal, dysfunctional, poor, abusive” behaviour is definitely normalised…particularly at a leadership level.
If a ‘pleb’ of the church behaved like that, I’m sure leadership would have something to say…but when leadership behaves like that, such a culture of adoration has developed around them, that everyone says nothing, due to:
a) fear of being on the receiving end of another tantrum
b) a misguided desire to become a member of the leadership “circle of trust”
c) being convinced that because this leader is so “gifted, talented, etc.” that
you need to excuse some of this behaviour
d) actually seeing that behaviour as “normal”
I’m certainly guilty of responding with (a), (b) and (c)