Hillsong article
For those that inquired about the Hillsong article which appeared in the Weekend Australian, the Australian (or more particularly the copyright owner) has agreed to permit us to publish the article on this site for everyone to access, for a fee about the cost of a pair of sneakers. This is unfortunately outside of our (non-existent) budget for this site. Could people either comment here or drop me an email if you would be willing to chuck in some money to make this available, or alternatively if you don’t think that it is worth it to do. Ta.
May 6th, 2006 at 9:36 pm
All False Donald!
I was in the City Congregation. Most people are not from an Anglo Saxon/Celtic background…yet most peopleon the platform are….mmmm
I don’t know off the top of my head what the national Average wage is but i would doubt that most peopl in the City congregation earn above it. A lot would and a lot wouldn’t. I would say the City congregation is fairly representative of Sydney population except for Middle easterners.
MMMM I am an independant thinker and this is why i was always in conflict. Some people are but i don’t thinkt he majority are concerned with thinking independently…they just want to get a fix of God.
In regards to the Hills congregation, A lot would be tertiary educated and certainly as a family probably earning more than the national average wage. They are very concerned about money and paying off their McMansions out there in the hot dusty hills of the north western suburbs.
Independent thinkers….out at Hills, definitely not!
The Hills congregation is much more toe the line while the City, which is Frank’s old church is much more loving and community minded but that has been beaten out of them.
May 7th, 2006 at 3:37 pm
Neil
Thanks for yor response. I recently heard Danny G speak and he publicly said he wasn’t happy with and disagrees with aspects of the AOG agenda.
He also said he was forming ties with people outside the AOG. I got the impression he dislikes some of the “modern” ideas in the AOG.
May 7th, 2006 at 5:13 pm
Ned -
Danny G by nature is approachable, pastoral etc. However he has been heavily influenced by the AoG model (for good or bad depending on your opinion). I once heard him preach as a visitor to another AoG church on “Spiritual Divorce” (ie. leaving a church).
The sermon was uncharacteristically legalistic and manipulative, though it was probably more to do with the fact that many people were leaving that particular church at the time, and he may have been wanting to support the pastor.
Christine Caine, though also a nice enough person one-on-one, has a die hard fixation on fund raising from the pulpit. Her messages sound like an Amway convention being interupted by a Demtel infomercial. Keep in mind that she has risen to some popularity in AoG circles due to her long term service at Hills, which to be successful would require a certain amount of compliant point scoring. What better way that fund raising?
Like so many in church leadership, both of these people are probably great to have over for a BBQ, but not brilliant in preaching a balanced message. They both fly the AoG flag with disturbing effectiveness. Perhaps Danny’s is a bit more tempered - Christine’s more like all the irky bits of Hillsong without any of its redeeming features.
May 7th, 2006 at 6:09 pm
Hehe…
The idea of ‘profiling’ Hillsong is pretty funny… there are only around 19000 people there. I’ll start a little table in the foyer, and ask everyone to profile themselves.
And to make a donation. To feed the uni students.
May 7th, 2006 at 6:13 pm
Hey Rollsy - good to have you on board.
I’m an ex-CCC staff member and one year Danny boy came to preach @ our Men’s conference.
He made a few good calls actually, something along the lines of ‘Since when does being a pastor mean I have to drive the latest european car and have $1200 dollar suit?’
Ah it was funny seeing Pringle squirm when he said that…
Pringle has a fleet of the latest model cars that the ‘top brass pastors’ drive, Audi’s, Merc’s, BMW’s etc
I know he’s AOG thru and thru though, he’s big on tithing etc.
WIGGY
May 7th, 2006 at 6:19 pm
Rollsy: “I once heard him (Danny G ) preach as a visitor to another AoG church on “Spiritual Divorce” (ie. leaving a church).” That message was also preached at his buddy Paul de Jong’s church in Auckland. Made it out that anyone who left a church was automatically in the wrong, in rebellion & out of God’s will. So much for people who left because things were abusive, heretical or even better - were shown the door for asking questions.
Christine’s brief has always specifically been to build the International Hillsong network.
May 7th, 2006 at 7:00 pm
Spiritual Divorce!!!!!!
Hold on a minute… that’s nothing more than spiritual abuse.
the “body of Christ” was crucified for mankind, not the other way around.
May 7th, 2006 at 7:34 pm
This is hilarious.
http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=12328375&postID=114673015299238466&isPopup=true
The Hillsong leader went on a mad comment-deleting spree today….in a desperate bid to stop any questioning of Hillsong on her blog.
http://cjinblogform.blogspot.com/
“Comment Deleted
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None of the deleted comments were from me…BTW.
But the lengths that Hillsong leaders will go to…to prevent outside scrutiny are just bizarre.
That later comments did make it through just shows that persistence does pay off in dealing with the Hillsong cultists.
I’m still laughing….it’s so bloody funny….
May 7th, 2006 at 7:55 pm
Lance I’m with you. I’ve just spent the last 10 minutes cracking up…
RKV is one persistent bastard and that pic he’s got just adds to the hilarity of it all…
Ahhh dear, too funny
WIGGY
May 7th, 2006 at 7:58 pm
Lance, if you like cults, you’ll love the one I started.
Please join at http://www.cultastic.blogspot.com . Same goes for everyone else here.
I’m really liking being a cult leader, not sure if I have the engaging persona but I definately like power and money. Should be enough to get me through. I issue occasional doctrinal edicts and make apostolic appointments in a moment of whimsy, so if you’re really nice to me you might get a title and a small amount of power to dish out on passers-by. As the name suggests, it’s Cultastic.
May 7th, 2006 at 10:05 pm
RKV is indeed a persistent bastard. It isn’t funny, it’s sad. That girl is just a…girl. She’s hardly a “leader” as Lance suggests.
Come on, if you want to change the world, you don’t do it by pissing off the innocents.
May 8th, 2006 at 4:12 am
“That girl is just a…girl.”
Are you somehow implying that we should give her special consideration …because she..to use your words…is ‘just a girl’…like being a girl is akin to a learning disability or a physical or mental handicap?
Isn’t that being sexist towards your own gender?
I think if I addressed the same question (’what did you think of the Weekend Australian article?’) to, say, Reuben, the assumption would be that Reuben would be old enough and capable enough to handle the questioning….and parrot the company/cult line….and not be defended with a ‘leave him alone..he’s only a ……boy’…stance.
May 8th, 2006 at 8:44 am
Lance is only a poof. Way too funny.
May 8th, 2006 at 10:09 am
*cough* yeah, that’s exactly what i was saying.
She’s hardly Bobbie or Brian…
May 8th, 2006 at 10:10 am
anyway back to the hillsong article………
i am all for accountability for HS and am greatly disturbed by the apparent dodgey dealings in regards to property/money etc BUT
i would like to see more accountability to his (BH) theology that he preaches on to the 19000 or so every weekend…
his teaching at some point went haywire and has continued going off course to the point that a lot of it is barely recognisable from its supposed Christian roots…
Geoff was put through the wringer by him but (correct me if i am wrong) his arguement has not been ‘he done me wrong’ but that the message has been corrupted from grace to mammon and self empowerment
This reminds me of a statement by Marshall McLuhen in his description of TV… “The MEDIUM IS THE MESSAGE’
televisions main aim is to get you to watch more tv…
Hillsongs message is to get you to get more Hillsong …
tv entices you with entertainment and news and doco’s that you think are educating you but are really there to get you to watch more tv… if it was really educational it would be too heavy for tv and people would turn off because its too hard… and tv does not want you to turn off !! stay tuned - and now this!!! and after this !!!! wow - must see tv don’t miss out…..
Hillsong gets you in with more entertainment and builds an atmosphere of expectation that MUST NEVER be fullfilled because if it is fullfilled people will turn off…
people must feel that they are getting the stuff they need but not to the point of satisfaction.. satisfaction is the enemy of continual viewing/attendance…
and we don’t want people to REALLY think for themselves because they will see through our facade and start to (shudder at the thought!) QUESTION the leaderships lack of theological integrity… so lets just call everything ‘great teaching’ slap everyone on the back and call them a man/woman of God and make sure that they read OUR books and call everyone else a backslider/naysayer/speaking from thier hurts/grieving the spirit/attacking men of God etc…
ABOVE ALL DON’T LET ANYONE READ THE STORY OF THE EMPORERS NEW CLOTHES
May 8th, 2006 at 10:23 am
Abtruth, I think there’s an important conversation going on in the previous couple of posts - while I want to discuss the HS article, we need also to address the stuff that occurs in our midst. As part of a couple of communities that are critical of HS, I get p****d off when bitchin’ about other churches prevents us from seeing the muck that we’re involved in…
Sorry…feeling very grumpy about the attacks on this girl, who’s not a leader, who’s not responsible for what goes on at the top of HS, and who yes as a participant is complicit in it, but seriously…she’s unlikely to have any clout and targeting her is just plain mean.
May 8th, 2006 at 12:53 pm
‘Sorry…feeling very grumpy about the attacks on this girl, who’s not a leader, who’s not responsible for what goes on at the top of HS, and who yes as a participant is complicit in it, but seriously…she’s unlikely to have any clout and targeting her is just plain mean.”
Steve (Emblazoned) received exactly the same treatment for weeks, and he had less responsibility than our college goil leader …and there wasn’t a peep about how us mean old boys slapped Steve around for supporting Hillsong.
I think you’re being sexist in your belief that the college girl needs to be handled with kid gloves because she’s …’just a girl’….and therefore ……….what…..she’s too dumb to know what she’s got herself into…..?
While Steve was presumed to be able to handle himself….because….what……he’s got a dick?
Should we now start giving Dan special consideration at Northern because she’s ‘just a girl’…..(now that I’ve confused all the newcomers who think Dan’s a bloke in a same-sex relationship with Phil).
May 8th, 2006 at 2:06 pm
Yeah of course it’s “cos she’s got a dick”, Lance. You’re really outdoing yourself this time.
Steve came on to this blog and joined in the conversation.
You guys went over to HER blog and harassed her.
They are very, very different circumstances.
May 8th, 2006 at 2:14 pm
Btw Lance, you didn’t seem to care so much about how women were perceived when the issue arose (multiple times) on this blog in the past. I’m glad to see you have since found some enthusiasm for the subject…
May 8th, 2006 at 3:46 pm
This is where we end up…fair comment, I say…
http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=12328375&postID=114673015299238466&isPopup=true
lilcj, i wouldn’t be worried at all about some of the so called christians who entered your blog. I say delete away. I actually have been monitoring the Signposts blog for a few days now and i noticed that they are a lot of hurting people feeding of each others pain. they talked of how leaders would not allow them to questions what is going on and that they weren’t allowed to have a different opinion because they would be kicked out. well i have a different opinion to them and i posted what i thought. i was sworn at, called all sorts names and then all of entries were deleted and i was restricted from posting anything. so much for their ‘all loving all accepting’ facade. You stay strong in what God has called you to do!
May 8th, 2006 at 4:13 pm
http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=12328375&postID=114673015299238466&isPopup=true
I pray that you would find the truth that you are seeking, and that my eyes would be opened to it as well.
It doesn;t seem as though lilCJ is at all trying ot hide anything - but why did anyone gfo oever and start attacking her? Stupid. UNChristian. Ungracefull. and I am ashamed of it
May 8th, 2006 at 4:35 pm
I am a short, cute Canadian girl currently living in Australia attending HILC, taking Children’s Ministry Leadership. I know how to surf, and I love it!
She was studying leadership Lance - not actually in leadership.
Look before you leap - and those of you that followed him into the darkside of us…as my friend and mentor Derryn Hinch is fond fo saying…shame shame shame
May 8th, 2006 at 6:38 pm
RIGHTEO THEN - WE ALL FINISHED??? CAN WE GET BACK TO THE MATTER AT HAND???
and i say again with a salient point (in my mind at least)
anyway back to the hillsong article………
i am all for accountability for HS and am greatly disturbed by the apparent dodgey dealings in regards to property/money etc BUT
i would like to see more accountability to his (BH) theology that he preaches on to the 19000 or so every weekend…
his teaching at some point went haywire and has continued going off course to the point that a lot of it is barely recognisable from its supposed Christian roots…
Geoff was put through the wringer by him but (correct me if i am wrong) his arguement has not been ‘he done me wrong’ but that the message has been corrupted from grace to mammon and self empowerment
This reminds me of a statement by Marshall McLuhen in his description of TV… “The MEDIUM IS THE MESSAGE’
televisions main aim is to get you to watch more tv…
Hillsongs message is to get you to get more Hillsong …
tv entices you with entertainment and news and doco’s that you think are educating you but are really there to get you to watch more tv… if it was really educational it would be too heavy for tv and people would turn off because its too hard… and tv does not want you to turn off !! stay tuned - and now this!!! and after this !!!! wow - must see tv don’t miss out…..
Hillsong gets you in with more entertainment and builds an atmosphere of expectation that MUST NEVER be fullfilled because if it is fullfilled people will turn off…
people must feel that they are getting the stuff they need but not to the point of satisfaction.. satisfaction is the enemy of continual viewing/attendance…
and we don’t want people to REALLY think for themselves because they will see through our facade and start to (shudder at the thought!) QUESTION the leaderships lack of theological integrity… so lets just call everything ‘great teaching’ slap everyone on the back and call them a man/woman of God and make sure that they read OUR books and call everyone else a backslider/naysayer/speaking from thier hurts/grieving the spirit/attacking men of God etc…
ABOVE ALL DON’T LET ANYONE READ THE STORY OF THE EMPORERS NEW CLOTHES
May 8th, 2006 at 7:03 pm
Bec,
Just to clarify this comment you cross-posted:
“lilcj, i wouldn’t be worried at all about some of the so called christians who entered your blog. I say delete away. I actually have been monitoring the Signposts blog for a few days now and i noticed that they are a lot of hurting people feeding of each others pain. they talked of how leaders would not allow them to questions what is going on and that they weren’t allowed to have a different opinion because they would be kicked out. well i have a different opinion to them and i posted what i thought. i was sworn at, called all sorts names and then all of entries were deleted and i was restricted from posting anything. so much for their ‘all loving all accepting’ facade. You stay strong in what God has called you to do!”
He commented 30 or 40 times over a two day period on signposts. As he is not a registered user he was spanked by our auto spam killer. We are recovering the comments.
Steve, if you read this then please read the link that says “comments being eaten”.. which suggests you should register if you are going to comment regularly on signposts.
May 8th, 2006 at 7:34 pm
Oh Phil - I didn’t mean to give credence to what he said (as you’ll see from my comments on CJ’s blog). I just think that his perception is, while perhaps ill-founded, kinda fair enough (if that makes sense?!)
Was he sworn at??
May 8th, 2006 at 11:17 pm
Phil re Comment #54 “Steve, if you read this then please read the link that says “comments being eaten”.. which suggests you should register if you are going to comment regularly on signposts”.
Was that our Steve? ie. “Emblazoned Steve”?
May 8th, 2006 at 11:51 pm
I’ll ask Steve tomorrow when I see him. Unless he reads this first.
May 9th, 2006 at 9:56 am
The steve whose comments were spam busted doesn’t appear to be the same person as steve emblazoned.
May 9th, 2006 at 10:11 am
Was it STEVE who shouted his name at us?
May 9th, 2006 at 10:44 am
Yes, but his later comments removed the shouting/caps lock. His comments appeared on the detoxing thread and a couple of comments in one of the threads about the Australian article.