Hillsong article
For those that inquired about the Hillsong article which appeared in the Weekend Australian, the Australian (or more particularly the copyright owner) has agreed to permit us to publish the article on this site for everyone to access, for a fee about the cost of a pair of sneakers. This is unfortunately outside of our (non-existent) budget for this site. Could people either comment here or drop me an email if you would be willing to chuck in some money to make this available, or alternatively if you don’t think that it is worth it to do. Ta.
August 7th, 2006 at 4:32 pm
Well I will say that I have spoken with Kevin on the phone and have emailed him more than once. I believe he is a good mad, who has a great heart for Jesus. It is not easy to throw away a belief system, nor to swear off allegience to those you have looked up to for years. Especially one that looks so appealing for the individual. Just have faith and do the right thing and you too, may be flying around in a private jet thanks to JC.
I am amazed that I can list verse after verse that not only comes against prosperity gospel, but even just a normal lower middle class suburban Christianity, and one at a time each verse gets taken apart, and completely invalidated. But lance does that with really what comes down to one new testement scripture, and he is a blatant sinner, made a slave to his perversion who has rejected the scriptures and ultimately Jesus as well.
I guess we all have our little hypocrisies don’t we.
rev
August 7th, 2006 at 4:38 pm
It sounds spot on to me. further, I’ll really stick my neck out and say that people generalyy hang around in the dysfunctional church system for one (or maybe both) of 2 reasons:
1) They’ve come from dysfunctional families — commonly people tend to repeat patterns until they own them and deal with them
or 2) They became a christian in such a setting and so assume that this is the way the Jesus-life plays out in church life. They’ve never heard or experienced anything else.
August 7th, 2006 at 5:00 pm
I meant good man, not good mad.
rev
August 7th, 2006 at 7:22 pm
“But lance does that with really what comes down to one new testement scripture, and he is a blatant sinner, made a slave to his perversion who has rejected the scriptures and ultimately Jesus as well.”
Remember, the pastor is always right.
August 7th, 2006 at 7:46 pm
Some good thoughts on this post boys and girls.
Rev re post 571… Yes, I’m sure Kevin is a top bloke, I really do.
I think it’s important to realise that there are really good people with very genuine hearts who attend HS and CCC style churches. I had lunch on Saturday with a whole bunch of people I have not seen in years… All of them still attend CCC. It was difficult for me to listen (and not be judgemental) when people were talking about “miracle offerings” and “building the house”. But they are mostly very genuine people who honestly believe they are doing God’s work by giving money to these ministers. Christ always directed his criticism and anger towards the leaders of the established church of his time, never the followers.
I think there is a lesson in that for us all, myself definately included.
Phil Pringle if you’re reading this, you’re a lying deceiving bastard
WIGGY
August 7th, 2006 at 9:00 pm
I’m not quite sure which thread it was, but a while ago, Lance made a comment in passing about keyboard players in church feeling that they were used to manipulate a mood during tithes/offering sermonettes, etc.
I was thinking about that last night while playing keys in the background during the offering at church… and I think you are right, but also wrong at the same time.
I think it is manipulation in the sense that it is done to try and create an atmosphere… but whether the attempted atmosphere is there to be “conducive to giving”, so to speak, or another reason, I don’t know.
My grandad and I have a saying that goes something like “pentecostals are scared of silence”… So rather than attributing it to a malicious intent, I think (for the most part) it is out of a desire to try and “keep the spirit” in. Obviously “the spirit” is not confined to when we play pretty keyboard sounds in the background so it is all a bit farcical, but I don’t think it’s malicious.
Having said that, I have had friends whose experience has been that of obvious manipulation through keys…
Does anybody else have thoughts on that or shall I return to my quiet corner now and not take the threat-off topic again?
August 7th, 2006 at 9:02 pm
oops… that should read
“take the thread off-topic again”
August 7th, 2006 at 9:37 pm
I believe most of our music in the church is meant to manipulate people. This really concerns me, but it also is a hard one for me, because I really do love singing to God. My brother will say that he lost his faith when he went to a rock concert and felt the same thing that he thought was the Holy Spirit in church.
I am not sure how this all works, because I believe art inspires people, and causes people to feel a certain way. When we use art, decor, music ect. are we manipulating people? And is that okay if we are? I try not to, but I can do the same when I am preaching, speak softer and slower till everyone is leaning in, dramatic pause, and then make your point a booming crescendo.
That is one of the reasons I like house church, it is just people, that really know each other, talking. If I started to “work it” my family and friends would say, “knock it of you big dork”
I try and focus really hard on the Spirit when I am teaching and playing music. I feel like if I am following what God wants then I am less likely to manipulate others. But the fact is…
I can’t always be trusted to follow the Spirit, because I am not perfect.
It really helps to have people in your life that have no problem putting you in your place.
rev
August 7th, 2006 at 11:09 pm
I know what you mean… I went to the Coldplay concert and thought to myself “gee, sometimes church sounds a bit too much like this, and I get this great feeling there too”.
I mean, you might hate Coldplay but you get the idea.
Like you, I try my best to be spirit-guided when I play and not carnal… but it’s hard.
Maybe I need to hang out in a house church for a bit.
August 8th, 2006 at 4:05 am
“I’m not quite sure which thread it was, but a while ago, Lance made a comment in passing about keyboard players in church feeling that they were used to manipulate a mood during tithes/offering sermonettes, etc.
I was thinking about that last night while playing keys in the background during the offering at church… and I think you are right, but also wrong at the same time.
I think it is manipulation in the sense that it is done to try and create an atmosphere… but whether the attempted atmosphere is there to be “conducive to giving”, so to speak, or another reason, I don’t know.”
Who asks you to play the music and why?
It just seems a strange thing to do.
If I were talking to you in the car park after the service, and towards the end of the conversation, someone gingerly walked up with their electric piano…and softly started playing music……you’d lock them up (on Mud Island. Here is a picture of tinkly music players from penty churches previously shipped to Mud Island. http://www.stolaf.edu/depts/environmental-studies/aus2000/mud_is.jpg )
I mean….why not have someone walk out towards the end of the sermon..and start softly playing the piano accordion or the banjo or the spoons?
It seems just as random and mystifying.
In talk radio….the background music is used sometimes as insurance ..in case the announcer finishes talking before the news comes on ..exactly on the hour. I don’t have a problem with it there…because it has a purpose.. (excuse when they use friggin’ Classical Gas).
The only time I’ve seen the softly-playing-the-background-music dude during an offering talk (as opposed to the end of the regular sermon) is with Phil Pringle….and it doesn’t make him sound any less heretical..(if the idea is to distract people from the heresy).
I really hope it’s not a ‘we do it..because we’ve always done it’ thing…because that’s a really bad reason for doing something.
August 8th, 2006 at 6:04 am
m
August 8th, 2006 at 6:29 am
Rev - Thanks for the kind words to wiggy - Any relation to wiggly? Anyway, Guys, here is my take finally. Arguing with you two would be pointless, because i agree with your positions on so many things. Rev, in no way am I belittleing your lifestyle. I was merely making this point… in spite of the wrong theology, which PD is, i still think that it is a way over-blown fight to make. It is much like my simplistic view of Universalism. Which was broken down to the simplest end result - everybody is saved - so what makes the difference.
Rev, you asked me if Joyce made ANY sacrifices - well, obviously yes is the answer. You surely aren’t saying she makes NO sacrifices are you? Her book royalties go into the ministry - she recieves a sum of 250K including the house where she lives and her probably real nice vehicles.
but her royalties are much more than her salary so she does make SOME sacrifice in this. Some of her stuff has helped a not small number of people - can’t argue that.
She has incredible influence in the Arab world with a lot of people who are muslim. She teaches the blood of Christ, the power of the Spirit and becasue of her, in these places people are hearing about Jesus. You say she serves money - the god of this world and i say that is for God alone to judge. My part is to rejoice in GOOD NEWS, to see it in the bad. Honestly, if you hold people to a standard of perfection - you will be held to it also.
It wasn’t Joyce Meyer minstries that told me about her influence, it was my friend on the ground sweating it out in his mission field as you are in yours. He is not a big time follower of hers, and has the same views you do as far as PD goes, i know becasue he was one of my mentors. Yet his view is that if God can be glorified by her work, and if she brings people to Jesus - Praise God for her.
I seriously doubt that you have listened to her lately. It’s one thing to read someone elses take on it, it is another thing to hear it and make your own judgements based on your own experience. Everyones theology changes as time goes on - some people adjust things after a while. i know you have and so have i, as Lionfish and so on. Some theology is a hair off, some is off becasue motive is wrong - and how can you judge motives? Again that is God’s territory.
You know I have no problem with the attack on PD - teach the truth on the doctrine all you want - even expose the names of people who teach it wrong. Just be careful that you do not condemn them as a child of the King based upon something they may have been taught wrong.
Don’t try to tell me you haven’t changed over the years. Joyce Meyer confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh - accrding to scripture that makes her one of Jesus own (again simplest form). She may need to change her theology but I thought that is what grace was all about.
Now, i am going to go pray that you will be prospered in the same way my friend in Arab world was. Something Good for the rev and his lovely family, who serve jesus with joy and gladness, whose cup overflows because goodness and mercy follow him -all the days of your life.
May the lord Jesus prosper you, and prosper Wiggy too.
August 8th, 2006 at 7:48 am
And from Newsweek magazine - Dr. Billy graham speaks about his changes in theology…..
“Graham spends hours now with his Bible, at once savoring and reconsidering old stories and old lessons. While he believes Scripture is the inspired, authoritative word of God, he does not read the Bible as though it were a collection of Associated Press bulletins straightforwardly reporting on events in the ancient Middle East. “I’m not a literalist in the sense that every single jot and tittle is from the Lord,” Graham says. “This is a little difference in my thinking through the years.” He has, then, moved from seeing every word of Scripture as literally accurate to believing that parts of the Bible are figurative—a journey that began in 1949, when a friend challenged his belief in inerrancy during a conference in southern California’s San Bernardino Mountains. Troubled, Graham wandered into the woods one night, put his Bible on a stump and said, “Lord, I don’t understand all that is in this book, I can’t explain it all, but I accept it by faith as your divine word.”
Now, more than half a century later, he is far from questioning the fundamentals of the faith. He is not saying Jesus is just another lifestyle choice, nor is he backtracking on essentials such as the Incarnation or the Atonement. But he is arguing that the Bible is open to interpretation, and fair-minded Christians may disagree or come to different conclusions about specific points. Like Saint Paul, he believes human beings on this side of paradise can grasp only so much. “Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror,” Paul wrote, “then we shall see face to face.” Then believers shall see: not now, but then.”
from Newsweek magazine … http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14204483/
August 8th, 2006 at 8:40 am
Kev,
If prosperity teaching is wrong, which you agreed that it is, should we not also condemn the lifestyle that is being lived because of it? When Jesus says that we are not to save up treasures for ourselves on earth, and people are not only doing that, but teaching that it is a sign of God’s blessing should we not stand up and cry foul? Ofcourse Joyce does good things, but so does the Dalai Lama, Bill Clinton and even Oprah (as much as I hate to admit it). This is not the issue, the issue is simply: Is this person, who is representing Christ, doing so incorrectly, and in so doing is this person teaching others to live incorrectly also?
My friend, it appears that you may be blinded than you think I am. She receives $200,000.00 a year, does not have to pay for a mortgage, or upkeep on her property, or for her clothes. She doesn’t have to pay for food while she travels. Or for car payments. You do realize that is $4,000.00 a week, with no expenses don’t you? And they don’t release what her husbands salary is? Or what her expense account is?
But she brings in more than that! and it all goes into a ministry that she has total discretion of the expenditures. So she says, well I don’t get the money, the ministry does, and I get to spend the ministry money however I want! Same thing bro.
Now I didn’t say she didn’t make any sacrifices, but that she is not living with restraint. How is her lifestyle walking humbly with God? How is her lifestyle an example of not storing up treasures on earth? How is her lifestyle teaching us to not worry about what we will wear or eat?
I know that this seems very harsh, but in my opinion this woman, and others like her have sold the church out to the God of this age, and are encouraging both by their lifestyles and their teaching to serve money. And like Jesus said, you cannot serve both God and money. I am not calling for perfection, I am calling for a leader to lead in the way of Christ instead of the way of the world.
He who would be great among you should be the slave of all.
rev
August 8th, 2006 at 11:01 am
I was a big fan of Joycey up to about 6 years ago when I noticed a change in her ministry style and content (which happened to occur at the same stage she had plastic surgery…who knows if there is a link????)
Anyway…prior to that, I watched her daily programmes and was ministered to very deeply. She spoke much about the love of God and the forgiveness, grace, peace, joy, etc. He offers. I must say, her preaching changed my life and my faith. She used to talk about “taking a year off” (not literally, but from striving in your relationship with God) and just letting Him love you…I did that…and it was truly amazing…I had felt incredibly unlovable and rejected at that time (due to my personal life)…but what she spoke about, helped me to be transformed by the love of God.
But then…about 6 years ago, I noticed she started talking a whole lot more about money…and I started to tune out…I stopped giving to her ministry as I felt that it had changed…she had changed…
I know people still think she is great…but you really do have to question the opulence of her lifestyle…$16 000 vases? A waterfall stating “look what the Lord has done” outside her place…I wonder what the third world would think if they saw that level of extreme wealth…
I don’t deny her having success…but there is a level of almost vulgarity in how she flaunts the wealth…just show a little restraint Joycey!
August 8th, 2006 at 1:25 pm
Good point, Lance… it does seem rather random, doesn’t it? I liked your point about talking in the car park…. *note to self: bring that up in next music meeting*
My music director asks me to do it - he does the same thing when he’s on keys. I’m not sure whether it’s a pastoral directive or not. Personally, I think it’s a mixture of the “pentecostals are scared of silence” and “this is just what we do”. Like I said, though, I have no doubt that in some churches it’s a deliberate attempt to mask something…
August 8th, 2006 at 2:31 pm
What Church do you go to Jamesh?
August 8th, 2006 at 3:40 pm
Is it bad to have nice things?
August 8th, 2006 at 5:07 pm
Someone said a few months ago, that we don’t often hear this word ‘Canadian Tele-Evangelists’, maybe this why …
A CRYING SHAME: CHARLATANS in the HOUSE
“This kind of manipulation is actually against the law in Canada. The U.S. government allows American evangelists to get away with it, but that doesn’t mean it’s right. It is a spiritualized form of arm-twisting.”
August 8th, 2006 at 5:17 pm
I don’t think its bad to have nice things, but like at the end of schindlers list, are the things you have keeping you from being a more effective help to others?
rev
August 8th, 2006 at 7:17 pm
Lionfish - A smallish AOG church in Brisbane, you wouldn’t have heard of it… I used to go to a much larger one which was great (all of the plusses of a megachurch with fewer of the pitfalls) but left a while back to go somewhere more locally.
August 8th, 2006 at 7:46 pm
“*note to self: bring that up in next music meeting*”
” A smallish AOG church”
I hope you take your crash helmet with you…when you’re questioning AOG leadership.
August 8th, 2006 at 8:33 pm
hahahaha, thanks for the heads up.
August 8th, 2006 at 9:48 pm
Damn, Jamesh … had hoped you were from Hillsong. We have not given someone a good bollocking in a while.
Oygle, very interesting article. Now e KNOW why Benny Hinn migrated to the States.
August 8th, 2006 at 10:02 pm
Sorry, Lionfish, no such luck…
Speaking of bollocking Hillsongers, where did emblazoned disappear to?
August 8th, 2006 at 10:04 pm
He’s still in the Bollocks.
August 8th, 2006 at 10:16 pm
While reading Phil Bakers personal on his blog - I think I discovered why you all really hate him so….
“For the record Philip supports England in soccer, the All Blacks in rugby and Australia in everything else. “
August 8th, 2006 at 10:35 pm
Funny thing Kevin. Even Lance would attest. We don’t hate Phil Baker.
We just hate the way the Contemporay Church operates, we dislike his unorthodox creedo of “Eliminate the negative, Accentuate Prosperity”. it’s not personal.
We are still waiting with open arms for him to repent, stop following his good friend Brian Houston headlong into the WOF movement, and turn towards orthodox Christainity.
I know that recently he made some more ‘balanced’ statements about tithing in his Church which are not in alignment with Allan Meyers and Paul de Jongs really dodgy teaching. (This is not the “i am with Allan on this one” stand that he took some time ago).
Although, i am also sure that if Allan Meyer repented of his Apostolic hermenutics and unorthodox, cultic, legalistic and unfair views on tithing even the Lutheran Church may accept him back into the fold as a member - hmmm,after a three year perod of restoration .
August 8th, 2006 at 11:00 pm
Hey, is everybody doing their Census like me?.
August 8th, 2006 at 11:02 pm
already done it boss