Hillsong article
For those that inquired about the Hillsong article which appeared in the Weekend Australian, the Australian (or more particularly the copyright owner) has agreed to permit us to publish the article on this site for everyone to access, for a fee about the cost of a pair of sneakers. This is unfortunately outside of our (non-existent) budget for this site. Could people either comment here or drop me an email if you would be willing to chuck in some money to make this available, or alternatively if you don’t think that it is worth it to do. Ta.
August 8th, 2006 at 11:09 pm
I have Dan working on it.
August 8th, 2006 at 11:27 pm
I gues I am the only one who gets to tick a box for a real religion on Question 19 … hee, hee, hee
August 9th, 2006 at 12:44 am
“Funny thing Kevin. Even Lance would attest. We don’t hate Phil Baker.”
I have shifted my position on that in recent months.
Starting originally from a position of confusion…and then mild annoyance…I can safely and truthfully say now I hate Baker and think he’s a creep.
August 9th, 2006 at 1:23 am
Yes lance, Honesty is your strong point - brutal, blatant, absolute honesty. I have never doubted your honesty in telling me what you really thought.
August 9th, 2006 at 9:15 am
lovely!
August 9th, 2006 at 9:17 am
but just in case you think it’s only WofF and Hill$ong type churches that deal with money in an evil fasion - this from the Anglican Church in Karachi Pakistan
http://www.pakistanchristianpost.com/newsviewsdetails.php?newsid=257
August 9th, 2006 at 9:25 am
Did you do this online? (I decided it was probably slower than writing it by hand, but at least the hapless census collector won’t have to keep returning to try to find someone in the house. She practically begged me to do this online… I think she had trouble finding me in the first place.)
August 9th, 2006 at 9:48 am
I used the form
August 9th, 2006 at 9:48 am
Janet - have you cross posted?
August 9th, 2006 at 9:58 am
Could everybody please ignore Greg The Explorer’s post #606.
It much less complex and much more fun focusing on the financial dodginess of only the WOF/AOG Church.
August 9th, 2006 at 10:11 am
LF is right - I apoligise for widening the scope of our contempt!
August 9th, 2006 at 12:41 pm
I bet those angilcan bishops are also All Blacks fans -
August 9th, 2006 at 2:11 pm
I am a Project Manager. We need to keep our objectives well defined and our scope contained if we are to deliver.
August 9th, 2006 at 2:20 pm
Can we have nice things that only entertain us? How far can we go with making ourselves the greatest we can be to offer the best to someone else?…
August 9th, 2006 at 2:23 pm
Don’t understand what you are asking.
rev
August 9th, 2006 at 3:51 pm
allblack fans…yeah…sure….huh?
August 9th, 2006 at 5:53 pm
I guess i am asking a couple of things:
1- Can I pay money for something, say a Video iPod, solely to entertain myself? Enjoyment etc…
2- Can I pay money to go to a Seminar/Conference or buy a Christian resource which will further my knowledge of God and his word, building myself as a person to help others? How much can I spend?
August 9th, 2006 at 6:04 pm
You can do whatever you want
August 9th, 2006 at 9:18 pm
Hi Brum,
You ask some poingnant questions worthy of analysis and discussion.
Before I give some thought to and answer those can you please tell me whether you believe the concept of ’storehouse tithing’ as taught by Brian Houston, Paul de jong and Allan Meyer is ethical, acceptable and binding on the (NT) Christian …
August 9th, 2006 at 9:47 pm
Look bro, the bottom line is that God calls us to a life of sacrifice. How we deal with that is basically part of the battle between the flesh and the spirit. So when I say you can do whatever you want, I meant just that. However, if you want to really follow after Jesus, and follow the example of Jesus, you will become more and more committed to a life of self sacrifice.
Now just what that means may be a matter of conjecture. I often hear people talking about how they can bless people if they have a bigger house. But most of these people do not actually share their house, they may host some parties, or a bible study, but for 95% of the time they get the better house all to themeselves.
Ofcourse you may spend money on books that you really want to read, and the information from these books may help you to minister to others. You may go to a conference and be inspired or equiped to help others. I guess the truth is our motives are never totally pure. We are often mislead by our own wants and emotions.
I don’t pretend to be able to write the definitive list of what is okay and what is not, infact I do not believe there could be such a list. But what I so object to, is this continued denying that this is Jesus teaching. And the glorification of materialism and selfishness as if it is Gods blessing. We are called to follow Jesus, Jesus left heaven and lowered himself to become human, and then further humbled himself by submitting to others and eventually even acting as the lowest of the low slaves by washing the disciples feet. To follow this Jesus we must be downwardly mobile ourselves. I have not mastered this, but the idea is I am heading in that direction. If Joyce were to start making efforts to head in that direction, I would not judge her as unfit, but she does not, she continues in storing up treasures for herself on earth, and encourages others to do the same, calling it God’s blessing.
As long as anyone is struggling with this, and becoming, or even trying to become less selfish and less consumerist, then I will keep my mouth shut.
rev
August 9th, 2006 at 10:14 pm
I struggle with materialism Rev.
August 9th, 2006 at 10:47 pm
we all do bro, don’t know anyone who doesn’t. But the fact that you are struggling against it, and aren’t teaching people to embrace it as God’s blessing is all I can ask for.
Now if we were in a faith community together then we would work on ways in which we could both win this very spiritual war, or atleast start winning some battles. It would most likely involve some pretty heavy financial donations to my ministry
Whenever I teach about the rich young ruler, someone will come up to me and ask if I really think they are supposed to sell everything and give it to the poor. I usually tell them it doesn’t matter what I think, it matters what you think. Every once and a while that isn’t enough and they keep pressing me, I tell them that I am trying to get to that point, and have taken steps in that direction.
rev
August 9th, 2006 at 11:04 pm
I don’t think it was necessarily about the money with the Rich Young Ruler. He did not know who Jesus was. This is a guy that thought Jesus was a Guru or Teacher, who could teach him PRAGMATIC life principles and reassure him that it is OK to ‘do the right thing’.
Jesus stripped eveything away from him and said follow me. Unlike Guru’s, and mega Church Pastors who would have welcomed him with open arms, asked him to tithe or contribute to their ministry, or buy their resources …. Jesus to him to give it all away to the poor as a Third Party. Notice his authenticity - imagine what JC could have done with all that wealth, or even part of it …
Jesus was not after his wealth. He wanted all of the Rich Young Ruler. And wanted the Rich Young Ruler to have all of him.
I also believe that the Rich Young Ruler was a narcissist - if you read the passage ‘it is all about me’ (ie. I do this, i have done that etc).
That seems to be some of the appeal of prosperity doctrine - “it’s all about you” … “you can keep holding onto your wealth as long as you are good” …
Jesus strips it all away. We don’t need more money. We need more Jesus.
August 10th, 2006 at 2:15 am
An accidental visitor to a Hillsong-clone church.
http://supervisor133.blogspot.com/2006/07/fraudulent-gay-hillsong-reunion.html
…[I]…. went to church today. Who would have thought? But given my recent exhaustion and a slew of events with female acquaintences, I have been questioning aspects of my behaviour and direction in life. So what better place to reflect on such things than in a church? Well, it wouldn’t be [my] story if it was easy.
The first church I went to within walking distance had not one but three (!!) choirs performing. Needless to say this was a slight turn off for me. But I’d committed to attending church this morning so in I went. A quiet place for reflection? Not a chance. I couldn’t even get a seat. It was like the Grand Final of church services. Am pretty sure I saw a few people in footy colours in there. The choir didn’t even have a guitar let alone a distortion pedal. So out I walked, to a few “who the hell leaves church 10 minutes in” stares.
On to Church number 2. Now the church’s doors were well closed. This looked slightly ominous. Why would the front doors be closed just before the service? So I walked around the side and found another entrance. There seemed to be much movement and buzz. This wasn’t the funeral-style church service I was used to. Anyhow, I ignored the “Oh, is this your first time here”’s and entered the… auditorium?! Huh? This wasn’t a church at all. But by this point I had already walked out of one church and figured I’d likely be paying for this a long long time if I didn’t press on. On stage were a group of pretty young things singing their hearts out. Well, at least the music is a little better here, I thought. Everyone was on their feet and clapping and swaying gently. Hmmm… whatever gets you through the service, yeah?
I took a seat, yes I was the ONLY one sitting through this performance. Now I had good reason for this, as I’d walked in after they’d begun and was just a visitor I felt that it was ok for me to sit. And I had come here largely to SIT. So in defiance of common practice I remained seated. And so things began. It’s never good when the singer eyeballs you while vocally wooing God coz you’re not “getting into it”. The other thing was, I figured the song would be over soon. Hah. I *reallllllly* didn’t know what I’d walked into. Imagine Stairway to Heaven put on repeat a few times. We’re talking that kind of epic length. They’d probly give Diamond Sea a run for its money too.
As time wore on the congratulations and welcomes began. “Great to see so many new people here, X,Y & Z”. And that’s where I began to shift in my seat uncomfortably. This place seemed like a very pushy attempt at being “hip” and communal. I was scared they were going to make the newcomers speak. They did ask us to raise our hands, which I did very sheepishly as I was by this point petrified that they would ask me what I was doing there.
Pastor : So why did you decide to come today?
….(Me)… : Errr… you guys got lucky. The other church was full and I needed a place to sit!
I felt like a total fraud. All these people singing out for God and I’d come in because I needed a place to sit and be me.
And on and on it went. Believe it or not I sat through an hour and a half of this. When the Led Zeppelin inspired youth group came back onstage I decided to bail. I’m sure God would forgive me for this, he’s generally good like that. Or so I hear. Upon leaving it occurred to me that I’d stumbled upon a Melbourne based Hillsong church. It’s perverse enough to make me want to return next weekend. It really does have that car crash allure about it.”
August 10th, 2006 at 9:46 am
I likewd what one guy said in response to this post - If you want to sit…go to a library! TRhat would be enough of an adventure to scare most people off going to church
August 10th, 2006 at 3:58 pm
I thought we were long overdue for some Phil Pringle heresy.
Offering talk from Christian City Church Sunday, August 6, 2006….10am service.
http://202.125.166.74/ramgen/ccc/06080610am.rm
(Phil Pringle) “We’re going to receive our tithes and our offerings..right now.
And so if you’re needing a strip to…record credit card details on..because you use credit card..it’s on your newsletter…but if you haven’t got one of those just raise your hand ..and an usher will make sure you get one right now…for your offering.
And some people use the EFTPOS machine up the back afterwards.
If you’re making our cheques…make them out to CCC.
Some of you watching on the internet …go to the top right hand side of the web page …and you’ll be able to participate with us right now.
Let me just share ..a scripture with you….out of the book of Proverbs…about wisdom.
Proverbs 8 verse 11…it says ‘wisdom’…..say this with me…’wisdom’ (congregation:’wisdom’) is far more valuable (’is far more valuable’) than ‘rubies’.
So this is saying that when you’ve got a choice..between wealth…or wisdom …choose wisdom…because it’s more valuable…it’s way more valuable than wealth.
And when we come to a moment like this ..in church life… or in any part of our life ….we can think ‘…huh..it’d be wiser to hang on to my wealth ..than to actually give it…’
And yet these Proverbs are written by one of the wealthiest..men in history ..Solomon…one of the most powerful men in history as well…. he was a King.
And not only was he considered the wealthiest and most powerful person in that nation..he was also considered the wisest man of history.
And he is saying all the way through the book of Proverbs …bring your tithes…bring your first fruits….and bring your offerings into the House of God.
He said that..is the epitome..of financial wisdom.
Of all the smart things that people can tell you to do with your money …like Uncle Harry..with his tips about who’s going to win at Randwick next weekend..
He might be smart…but he’s not smarter than this Book.
And I can guarantee you…that that’s going to be way more better investment ..if you follow the guidelines of this Book..than Uncle Harry…..God bless Uncle Harry …or…your financial planner..God bless him too…..great people…smart people …and do good business with people who’ve got no idea what to do with their money.
But even their wisdom…..they can study it for all their life …how to manage money…how to work your finances ….they’re not going to be as wise as this man.
And he says ‘listen, getting smart with life and with God means you bring your tithes..and you bring your offerings ….that’s wisdom.
And he says wisdom is more valuable than all the wealth you can get ..
A little later on in this…..he says ..’those who search for me ..will surely find me’.. that’s wisdom…
‘Unending riches…honour ..wealth and justice are mind to distribute. My gifts are better than the purest gold…my wages better than sterling silver.’ And then he says….’those who love me will inherit wealth’.
So…when you make wisdom..higher in your priority list than wealth… wisdom will actually deliver wealth to you.
And part of being wise is doing what we’re doing right now. This is one of the wisest actions you perform…with your finances.
It’s all through the bible…bring your tithes..bring an offering …make your money worth more…errr…make wisdom worth more than money to you…and you will find that wealth will be one of the things that come from being a wise person….not just wealth…but successful living in your family..and your marriages.
Here’s a couple that after 33 years …on the stage ..saying we love being with each other…as much as when we first met each other.
And all of us remember when we first met that one…well some of you haven’t quite met them yet …..but you’d be on the phone…saying nothing (breathes heavily) ..are you still there? Yeah.. What are you thinking now? (breathes heavily) I don’t know, what are you thinking? (breathes heavily) I’ll call you back soon. (breathes heavily) Ok. Click…Zzzz….Hi…you still there? (breathes heavily - audience laughter)
How ’bout that? After 33 years ..they’re still..not even on the phone…..in the car…(breathes heavily) at a baseball game (breathes heavily).
Wisdom is in this couple’s life …and it’s helped them with their marriage…helped them with their family ..but I gotta tell you….the cornerstone of wisdom is the fear of the Lord ..and to respect God and to do what he tells you to do…that’s smart.
So..let’s take our tithes….right now …bring this offering to the Lord ..(pulls package from coat pocket) ..and be smart..and be wise.
Father we thank you. The wisest thing we can do …is to serve God…in every area of our life….with our tithes…with our money …with our relationships….with everything we have.
So we bring this to you ..as people who are in the pursuit of wisdom …..people who don’t want to be found fools.
And Lord we ask you right now… that we would go beyond our own wisdom.
We might think it’s wise to hold on to our tithes.
No, no,no,no,no….you’ve said it is wise to give it to God.
So Lord we bring tithes and offerings to you…believing we will not only inherit wisdom…but also the wealth that you’ve promised comes with that …in Jesus’ mighty name…and everybody said Amen.
God bless you as you give today. Ushers if you could look after us..thank you very much……wonderful.”
Length of offering talk….6 minutes 10 seconds.
August 10th, 2006 at 4:58 pm
Dear, dear me.
Is it possible, if someone does tithe diligently and be a good little boy or girl for years and years, to sue Phil Pringle and his church for false advertising? Procuring payments for services not delivered? Something of that sort?
August 10th, 2006 at 4:59 pm
Providing, of course, that they don;t marry, or get divorced, or don’t win the lottery etc etc…..
August 10th, 2006 at 5:26 pm
Too bad for those of us who tithed diligently for years and gave thousands to building funds etc…only to end up losing everything..go figure!
August 10th, 2006 at 7:51 pm
“Is it possible, if someone does tithe diligently and be a good little boy or girl for years and years, to sue Phil Pringle and his church for false advertising? Procuring payments for services not delivered? Something of that sort?”
I think it’s possible to prove it qualifies as a ’scam’ under the new Government’s new Scamwatch scheme…(one of the reasons why I’m doing transcripts).
Pringle is clear that the money is not given to the church..but to God (when of course..it goes to the church) and Pringle/Mesiti do promise wealth in return for ‘tithes and offerings’… (specific promises of 100%+ returns are made)…
Now..one could argue that it’s people’s own fault if they believe these promises that the money goes directly to God (but how do you prove that it does/doesn’t?) ..and returns of 100%+ are to be expected…but according to the letter of the law…it’s a scam if stuff is being promised and not delivered…and religious groups are not exempt from the law.