Hillsong article
For those that inquired about the Hillsong article which appeared in the Weekend Australian, the Australian (or more particularly the copyright owner) has agreed to permit us to publish the article on this site for everyone to access, for a fee about the cost of a pair of sneakers. This is unfortunately outside of our (non-existent) budget for this site. Could people either comment here or drop me an email if you would be willing to chuck in some money to make this available, or alternatively if you don’t think that it is worth it to do. Ta.
May 9th, 2006 at 10:57 am
Hey Steve, look i made some in your face type comments on the detox thread to a Steve who, it seemed to me at the time, was all for bashing the already wounded.
Now i dont apologise for my statements, i meant them, there is no place or reason for inflicting judgement upon the weak. If youre one of the strong ones, then support us who are weak. At the same time, my statements may well have hurt you … hopefully for your good - otherwise, i apologise.
May 9th, 2006 at 11:05 pm
hm. I read the article last week, and found a link to this discussion tonight. In relation to the article, I am concerned about Hillsong’s accountability in terms of funds from the gov’t etc. They should use the funds in the way they were supposed to under the tender. It doesn’t reflect well on them as a church to misuse money like seems to have happened.
In relation to other stuff, consider this quote: ‘God blesses both the house church movement in China and the megachurches in Korea.’ If a church is proclaiming Jesus with good intention, God will bless it. I believe Hillsong proclaims Jesus well. Maybe not in the way we all would, but they do it.
Many of the commenters here obviously have big problems with some of HS’s theology and methods, but I think some balance is required. Oh, and some maturity also. For crying out loud, some of you are acting like 14 year old brats, whingeing and bagging people without being fair or with a hint of maturity. For all of the problems you have with Hillsong, I think some introspection is needed also. You know, the whole speck/plank concept.
May 10th, 2006 at 1:35 am
“Many of the commenters here obviously have big problems with some of HS’s theology and methods, but I think some balance is required. Oh, and some maturity also. For crying out loud, some of you are acting like 14 year old brats, whingeing and bagging people without being fair or with a hint of maturity. For all of the problems you have with Hillsong, I think some introspection is needed also. You know, the whole speck/plank concept.”
I think that’s a fair enough criticism.
I would probably go further and say that while I have some problems with al Qaeda’s theology and methods, some balance is required.
For all the problems some people have with al Qaeda….I think we can’t really judge al Qaeda…until we really see that their motives and pure, they really have a heart for God, and why should we look at the speck in al Qaeda’s eye….etc..etc….
Yes, I see now that the best way to proceed as Christians is to close your eyes to all bad stuff in the world…because it’s other people who are affected, not us…and …and….and…….and we should focus on ourselves and our own walk with God, because …golly…that’s what it’s all about..and what does it matter if a few souls are stolen along the way, and a few people take their own lives because of AOG churches. (no…I’m not exaggerating about the devastation wreaked by AOG churches in real people’s lives)..
You’re a dickhead Daniel.
May 10th, 2006 at 11:01 am
IT is interesting to read all your comments in relation to Hillsong Church. Having recently been forced out of the church as a former employee the same way that Geoff was, I have found some comfort in this room. Having read many articles on cults I have finally come to the conclusion that I belonged to one for many years. I just hope I don’t have to wait 5 years to get over the part of my life that Hillsong stole from me. Once you are in it you don’t see the lies but once you stand outside and have exerienced a staff meeting at Hillsong it is clear as day.
The machine will one day finish and probably sooner than later.
May 10th, 2006 at 11:57 am
I’m curious…what on earth happens at a staff meeting at Hillsong?
May 10th, 2006 at 12:45 pm
I believe Hillsong proclaims Jesus well. Maybe not in the way we all would, but they do it.
Sort of like “an essense of truth”.
In regards to doctrine, unfortunately the word ‘tolerance’ has crept into churches. I’m often reminded of the “little leaven”, Barnes explains it well.
“A little leaven, etc. A small quantity of leaven or yeast will pervade the entire mass of flour, or dough, and diffuse itself through it all. This is evidently a proverbial saying. It occurs also in Galatians 5:9. Comp. See Barnes “Matthew 13:33″. A similar figure occurs also in the Greek classic writers. By leaven the Hebrews metaphorically understood whatever had the power of corrupting, whether doctrine, or example, or anything else. See Barnes “Matthew 16:6″. The sense here is plain. A single sin indulged in, or allowed in the church, would act like leaven–it would pervade and corrupt the whole church, unless it was removed. On this ground, and for this reason, discipline should be administered, and the corrupt member should be removed.”
This may seem at odds with the ’speck/plank’ concept, but cleary, is not. The little leaven is allowing sin to corrupt the church, allowing it to enter in and remain, and doing nothing about it. The ‘mote/beam’ concept (Matt 7:3-5) is summed up as “The sentiment is, that the readiest way to judge of the imperfections of others is to be free from greater ones ourselves. This qualifies us for judging, makes us candid and consistent, and enables us to see things as they are, and to make proper allowances for frailty and imperfection.”
Of course what I have said, some may either not understand, whilst others will disagree, that’s okay, … I have read Matt 7:6.
May 10th, 2006 at 1:02 pm
When you are told at staff meetings to hang only around people who will get you somewhere, sit down the front of church to be seen, your wife has to attend, you must speak in tongues, forced (ever so nicely of course) to give money, asked to explain why you are not at church, told you have fallen out of line and need to be ruffelled up gives you a hint of what goes on behind closed doors. There is only so much one can take spiritually before he gets sick.
I don’t for a minute believe that asking questions about certain practices implies I am corrupt.
May 10th, 2006 at 1:10 pm
John, sorry to hear you have been controlled like that. Keep on asking questions.
May 10th, 2006 at 1:11 pm
oygle,
your comment on leaven doesn’t contrast the speck/plank. Hillsong is not a ‘brother’ it is a multinational conglomerate. You can’t hurt hillsong’s feelings, it has none. When we judge others for attending hillsong, then perhaps that applies. But when these threads are at their best, that isn’t what is happening.
Further, we’re not judging the planks of others on these boards because the act of posting here is the act of engaging in debate. “You can’t judge me” is not the cry of a debater, in debate your views are supposed to be judged. Others have already posted about the difference between ‘judging’ (bad bad stop it or god will whip you) and ‘discerning’ (good, obedient Christian – keep it up).
May 10th, 2006 at 1:21 pm
There are two Daniels here. I state that I am the original Daniel and not the one who Lance called a dickhead.
May 10th, 2006 at 1:29 pm
So from now on you should call yourself “original daniel”
May 10th, 2006 at 1:43 pm
how about nondickhead daniel or NDHD - kinda like DKNY or some other cool designer.
May 10th, 2006 at 2:01 pm
When you are told at staff meetings to hang only around people who will get you somewhere, sit down the front of church to be seen, your wife has to attend, you must speak in tongues, forced (ever so nicely of course) to give money, asked to explain why you are not at church, told you have fallen out of line and need to be ruffelled up gives you a hint of what goes on behind closed doors.
This is fascinating, so who runs the Hillsong staff meeetings, Brian or George?
What is George’s role in all this; who is the main player in driving the cult mentality?
May 10th, 2006 at 2:38 pm
John’s report of staff meeting content is absolutely correct for any who might think he is making it up.
May 10th, 2006 at 2:58 pm
I can remember in the early 80’s seeing the obvious attenders of hillsong (as it is now known) walking around the shops after church on a Sunday at Baulkham Hills and Castle Hill. The guys all wore vests - it was like a uniform. I know fashion in those years was a bit way out sometimes - but no where was any one else in church or secular areas wearing this stuff - really made them look weird. Obviously they had been told what is appropriate to wear or dress code enforcement. So from something as benign as fashion it has progressed to who you sit with, who you hang with, attendance roll calls, more giving required, speak and act like us etc etc.
How many more cultish characteristics have to be shown to declare that something like this institution has gone beyond cultish to the next level of a cult?
May 10th, 2006 at 3:34 pm
Back before I left Hillsong Pastor Brian threatened to rip out my eye ring because it was rebellious and he stopped me from greeting people at the door unless I took it out. Now it seems like everyone has got them and Im just so lost over this. I dont think Ill ever be the same. Jesus wouldnt have done that & I trusted Pastor Brian. It really hurt. I feel less of a person somehow and am frightened to go back to church in case something really bad happens as well. I think he thought I was gay too but Im not. I think that somehow that influences the way he thinks about you and you can tell what he is thinking by some of the nasty ways he says things. Do you know what Im trying to say? I was saving up to be one of his 100 kingdom people but I couldnt quite make it even though I believed so hard. I dont think that I can go to church again because I dont want to be judged or yelled at or looked at or to be told I cant wear an eye jewel. Now I think I have failed and I have to take zanex but they said depression was the devil and I dont know why the zanex quietens the devil but it seems to work. I wanted to play in the band but I wasnt good enough, sometimes I still play a bit when no one is home & I think I am a bit like David because no one hears me, its a bit like being with the sheep like he was and playing with no one to hear or say you are not good enough. I know Jesus doenst think that I am no good but because of Hillsong I feel like Im no good and that is really hard. Sometimes I just find myself getting dressed to go but then I realise I cant and that is hard. I went to the Baptists but they played “Shout to the Lord” and that just caused so many painful memories to come flooding back that I cried and had to leave. Someone ran after me in the car park and told me it was the conviction of sin that made me feel this way but I cant work out what my sin is. I might have to try to get right with Hillsong I dont lknow Im so lost.
May 10th, 2006 at 4:05 pm
It’s hard to know exactly how to respond to your story Terry - you write as if you are fairly young - but that may not be so (and not necesarly important either). It is terrible when people who don’t fit the mould are told they can’t represent the church at the face - greeting people at the door.
I met a guy up here on the Central Coast who was right into the local version of Hillsong: Coastlife with so called ‘Pastor’ Pastor Ian Zerna. He was a greeter at trhe door and one day he came in straight from having been out and was wearing clean neat “surfy” tyope clothes. He was told the clothes he was wearing did not reflect the kind of image Coastlife wanted to reflect and so he either had to go home an change or could not greet at the door.
I Peter 3:3-4, NIV. “Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight.”
1 Timothy 2:8-10
8I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.
9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
James 2:2-4
2Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. 3If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” 4have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?
There is no biblical way to dress or look - there is no peculiarly Christian way of dressing or adorning ourselves. Anyone who tries ot tell people they have to look a particular way is simply controlling and seeking power for themselves. I lead the worhsip (more than simply singing and music) at our community and most times I am wearing a pair of shorts and a shirt -but that’s it - no shoes - not necessarly shaved. (mind you I am very handsome so nobody cares what I wear just as long as they get to see me!)
Terry - Hillsong needs to get ti right with you and all trhe other people they ahve used and damaged. Brian Houston is the one with the problem - he is lost and all alone - you Terry are among friends
May 10th, 2006 at 4:08 pm
And just for good measure
James 5:1-3 Warning to Rich Oppressors
1Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. 2Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days.
May 10th, 2006 at 4:24 pm
In another group I am a part of (an email discussion group for Glebe Cafe Church) one of the members sent this around:
Hillsong - The Lord Is My Pimp. I Am His Ho.
What’s the resale value for the Kingdom anyone?
May 10th, 2006 at 5:27 pm
Hey Terry. You cried at “Shout to the Lord” because it evoked so many horrible memories… because you have been sinned against, rejected for all the wrong reasons, and had your trust betrayed. Please don’t blame yourself for the sins of another.
Depression is a complex thing, but it does alter brain biochemistry, which is why zanex works… it helps alter your brain biochemistry so you can feel better. If depression was as simple as “the devil” then the cure would be as simple as a prayer. It’s not.
I was reading I Kings 19 the other day… the way Elijah feels here sounds a lot like depression to me. He had been put under so much stress he was kind of spent. He needed ordinary things… food, water, sleep, time… as well as a touch from God… before he was ready to get on with the next chapter of his life.
Take care of yourself… I’m so sorry to hear about how you’ve been treated, but I believe you will feel better with time. You have “cyber friends” here.
May 10th, 2006 at 5:44 pm
Terry - a very sad story. It makes me sad and sorry for you. I wish things like this didn’t happen.
Don’t allow man’s judgment of the outward appearance, reputation and image to cloud God’s view of your heart. He sees your heart. If you feel your heart is in the right place, don’t worry about what people say or think (easy to say - hard to do). He alone is your rock and fortress!
May you find peace and comfort….
May 10th, 2006 at 5:58 pm
Dear Terry, I suffer from clincal depressioin and am bipolar. I have to take medication all the time. Welcome my brother to the church that Jesus builds with his tears. The church of the lost. We are why he came. He came for those who are lost, you and me and all of mankind. It is so tragic that some simply fool themselves into believing they have it all together. Brian is wrong. He should never have said those things to you, and, I can assure you, he would apologise to you if he knew how much he had wounded you. Brian is not an evil man. He can be very arrogant, angry and insensitive, and that is his problem. You are loved by God. I am so sorry that you’ve been so hurt. There are so many here that know your pain.
May 10th, 2006 at 9:39 pm
Thanks for having the courage to talk about your experience Terry.
My ability to enjoy music, especially worship music, died after being in a Hillsong-influenced church, Churchlands Christian Fellowship here in Perth.
And as I’ve commented before, I’ve experienced what I now know as a ‘panic attack’, when I was later in an Anglican church and the worship team started up, and I just had to get out of the building…
Panic attacks in church are the most horrible feeling, because it’s hard to leave quickly in a dignified way in the middle of a service! (I think most people would just presume you were busting for a piss).
The Baptist who told you that your leaving was the ‘conviction of sin’..was a dickhead.
Unfortunately what happened to you with your eye ring is not unusual…because Brian Houston is a well-documented workplace bully.
http://www.signposts.org.au/2005/08/23/a-comment-from-geoff/#comment-128165
I’ve been having a look at the legal position of Hillsong in relation to Houston’s actions…and it seems that it’s 50-50 as to whether Houston could be prosecuted, were such an action to be launched.
The laws protecting workers from workplace bullying appear to be fairly weak in NSW, although an employer could be sued, if several witnesses were able to demonstrate a culture of repeated bullying behaviour targeting an individual or a group of employees….the emphasis being on the word ‘repeated’.
Workcover in NSW has the power to inspect workplaces to ensure they are safe for employees…. but whether that covers psychological harm appears to be a grey area.
Houston has the power to stop you greeting people at the door….but he certainly doesn’t have the power to threaten to ‘rip out your eye ring’.
From what I can work out…..that action alone of Houston’s is the offence known as ‘affray’…(threatening violence).
In NSW law, a threat of violence can only be prosecuted if there is a real possibility that it can be carried out…(so if someone in Sydney makes a threat of violence over the phone to someone in Albury, that is not illegal, because there’s no immediate prospect of the threat being carried out. However since you were standing next to Houston when the threat was made, then it would appear that Houston could be charged by Police…particularly if there were other witnesses and/or it was caught on surveillance camera at the entrance to the church.)
Brian’s distaste for homosexuals puts Hillsong in an interesting position. I was under the impression that religious bodies had a blanket exemption from discrimination laws, but the exemption only relates to specific areas of the church’s operations, mainly the employment and training of church ministers, and the religious observances themselves.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/aa1977204/s56.html
(a) the ordination or appointment of priests, ministers of religion or members of any religious order,
(b) the training or education of persons seeking ordination or appointment as priests, ministers of religion or members of a religious order,
(c) the appointment of any other person in any capacity by a body established to propagate religion, or
(d) any other act or practice of a body established to propagate religion that conforms to the doctrines of that religion or is necessary to avoid injury to the religious susceptibilities of the adherents of that religion.
And I don’t think Houston is covered under section (d)….because last time I looked….threatening to rip out a volunteer’s eye-ring does not conform to the doctrines of Christianity (which Hillsong claims to be propagating)…nor is it necessary to avoid injury to the religious suscetibilities of the adherents of that religion”.
Terry, you’re obviously a good bloke…..it’s Brian Houston who has the mental problem….known as Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe07.html
“Diagnostic Criteria
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
- has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
- believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
requires excessive admiration
- has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
- lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
- is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes”
Unfortunately the treatments for Narcissistic Personality Disorder are rarely successful, so it’s best just to avoid organisations like Hillsong which protect and encourage people with this particular personality disorder.
May 10th, 2006 at 9:45 pm
Terry - God chooses those that everybody else says are not Good enough.
I agree with Goeff 100% and wish i had the grace to say what he is saying in my own words.
We know your pain. We stand with you.. welcome.
May 11th, 2006 at 9:19 am
Brian is wrong. He should never have said those things to you, and, I can assure you, he would apologise to you if he knew how much he had wounded you.
Geoff, this is going to be a first…I’m going to disagree with you! What evidence is there that Brian Houston would apologise for his offensiveness? Has Brian apologised to you for the pain his words and actions have caused you? Has he been documented as apologising to anyone at all? I agree that Brian is not an evil man - but his actions are most definitely evil.
Geoff, you are one of the most grace-filled people I have ever come across and we can always count on you bringing balance, love and compassion into any conversation. But let’s not start ascribing specific interpersonal skills to a man that doesn’t appear to have them!
May 11th, 2006 at 10:17 am
Lance, as ever, you put things so eloquently.
Suppose a church leader taught that depression was of the devil and that depressed people should throw away their medication and have faith… and then a vulnerable person did that, got worse, thought they were afflicted by the devil, and committed suicide in despair. Might the family have a legal case against said church leader? (is this too long a bow to make a case?)
I feel like anyone teaching this stuff should be lined up for a public flogging. Oh alright, it’s the 21st century, not the 19th. They should be herded into a room with medical experts, comptetent theologians, psychologistst etc. and retrained…. this level of ignorance is inexcusable for anyone in a position of power… it is cruel, thoughtless, wrong and makes my blood boil.
May 11th, 2006 at 10:27 am
I know of one church where something very similar to what you describe did happen, Janet.
May 11th, 2006 at 10:32 am
Greg, good point. I just can’t damn the man. I so want him to look into the mirror of his own soul and see the truth. I long for Brian and Bobbie to find the grace that comes to our wrongs, to our brokeness, our willfullness and our guilt and shame. The awful truth about who we are and all that we do helps us to understand the love and grace of God in a way that all our religious regimentation fails to acheive. So, I continue to hope.
Janet, oh how I identify with your comment. I really do believe that there should be some sort of supervision of anyone who ‘plays around’ with people’s souls. Psychiatrists have mentors and supervisors, doctors, lawyers and even politicians have ethical standards that they have to adhere to. Why do these ‘ministers’ have no accountabilty. They make up there own rules, they invent their own precepts, they concoct their leadership ‘techniques’ and they blame their victims when it all goes tragically wrong. Yes, my blood boils as well.
This is why I speak on this site and consented to the Australian interview. It is simply to add my story to the stories of others so that there may be a growing chorus for accountabilty.
Imagine if we put all these stories together, without the comments. All that has been written over the years just on this site. How sad that the mouths of the victimised are still silenced by the pride of the perpetrators.
Grrrr.
May 11th, 2006 at 11:08 am
Luke, without direct evidence, I suspect it’s happened many times. And I’m wondering (in a Lance-like fashion) whether someone needs to bring a case like this to court before some denominations will bite the bullet and instruct their pastors they must not teach this idiocy… whether the case wins or loses, the action alone will make denominations and their insurers nervous. I suppose families left behind after suicide are often too traumatised to feel they could face such a legal fight with an unknown outcome. You can only hope this kind of teaching is stopped one way or another.
May 11th, 2006 at 11:49 am
Well, I don;t wonder whether much of it comes from the extremely limited life experience and circumstances of most pastors. I mean, did Brian or Boob-job Bobby ever have another job before preaching Tha Word? Study any course other Fundamentalist Preaching 101?
Because if they had, they might realise that the brain is an organ like any other. Nobody would say to a man with a broken leg “Never mind the plaster cast and crutches, you just pray to Jeeeeeeeeeesus for deliverance from that Demon of Greenstick Fractures that possesses you. And if you don’t get healed, and don’t walk around on that leg straight away, it’s because you have no faith in God, and you’re still possessed by that horrible little satanic curse! Praise be to the Lawd!”
So what’s different about the brain?
I’ll tell you what’s different - precisely fuck-all. The only way you could possibly be so thick, so completely mindless as to subscribe to that sort of foolishness, is to live in a hermenaeutically (pun intended) sealed bubble all your life. Ditto for creationism, dispensationalism and a multitude of other ‘isms’ that sit like barnacles on the boat of progress.
I’m not into the personal stuff, although I can draw my own conclusions about the sort of manipulative, mendacious, usurious sociopaths that run a heck of a lot of ‘churches’ and ‘ministries’. All that is just opinion. But the stupidity, closemindedness and generally philistinic nature of these people is beyond question, whatever their motives or intentions.