Hillsong article
For those that inquired about the Hillsong article which appeared in the Weekend Australian, the Australian (or more particularly the copyright owner) has agreed to permit us to publish the article on this site for everyone to access, for a fee about the cost of a pair of sneakers. This is unfortunately outside of our (non-existent) budget for this site. Could people either comment here or drop me an email if you would be willing to chuck in some money to make this available, or alternatively if you don’t think that it is worth it to do. Ta.
May 11th, 2006 at 12:37 pm
I’m only aware of one case in the US, where a Christian organisation has been told by authorities to stop accepting mentally ill patients..and ‘treating them without a licence.’
This is the infamous ‘Love In Action’ saga, where parents send their gay kids to ’straighten them out’…(yes…the ‘Mercy House’ featured in the movie ‘Saved’ really does exist).
At present, Love in Action is suing the state of Tennesee, ‘claiming it is violating its religious freedom by requiring a license to care for mentally ill patients’.
http://www.southernstandard.net/news.php?viewStory=21916
Unfortunately in Australia…the only avenue for protecting people from organisations like Hillsong is by naming and shaming them…..because as previously mentioned….authorities here are under-resourced, and probably don’t want the hassle of taking on a religious organisation.
May 11th, 2006 at 12:40 pm
I work in Mental Health and have been often scared by some churches’ views on mental health issues. I recall once receiving a call from a church counsellor about a young girl who was engaging in serious self harm. The church had been praying for her seeing her condition as primarily spiritual. I strongly encouraged them to refer her on to specialist mental health services. Of course, there may be a spiritual element to her difficulties but to stop there is scary…failure to engage appropriate services is a hugh concern.
Is it because some leaders within the church have an inflated sense of their role? Is it because some churches have an inaccurate view of mental health difficulties and what causes them? Is it that some churches don’t trust “secular” services? Or is it that some churches are so “spiritually” minded that their world view is off balance?
May 11th, 2006 at 12:56 pm
I think it’s just because pastors are stupid….and that’s part of the reason why they’re human filth.
I mean, no-one knows everything, but part of the responsibility of being a professional (which pastors claim to be…and they want the nice office and the company car and the briefcase to go with the job title) is that when something comes along that you don’t understand or don’t have an answer for, you then go looking for that answer.
But due to their inflated ego, they can’t bear the thought of admitting that they don’t have all the answers….and so they blunder on….
Why we entrust our spiritual and emotional health to human filth and pond scum…I don’t know…..actually I do know, because we’re probably more stupid than they are.
May 11th, 2006 at 1:07 pm
I agree Lance. I wish more church leaders and pastors had less answers and more questions, and were more prepared to live in the tension of the unresolved….
May 11th, 2006 at 2:15 pm
If mental health can be treated by faith alone then why can’t saggy breasts?
May 11th, 2006 at 2:28 pm
That, Lionfish old boy, is a very good question….
…one could further and ask, of faith can solve mental health, why can’t faith solve yer pastor’s financial situation, without you having to fork out all the time….?
May 11th, 2006 at 2:32 pm
The dceitful practice of Tithing (and the way it is taught) demontrates that these guys have little faith in God’s provision.
May 11th, 2006 at 2:49 pm
These hucksters and charlatans should be investigated by the church and damned well exposed. In the same way that so many denominations, including mine own, will be condemned because their leadership closed and continue to close their eyes to child abuse, sexual immorality and other failings of their clergy, so will the churches who got on the bandwagons of these spivs be condemned.
The metal process is the same….”Yeah, I know I hear bad things, but they’re Christians, so they can’t be all that bad”…. Bullshit. Time to wake up. They’re not Christians, they’re nothing but deceivers and snake-oil salesmen, who’ve realised that Christian poeple are some of the stupidest, most naive and most trusting people around, and easily parted from their money and their remaing senses.
Arseholes.
May 11th, 2006 at 3:14 pm
Suppose a church leader taught that depression was of the devil and that depressed people should throw away their medication and have faith…
Like Geoff, I had clinical depression for many years, and if it wasn’t for our Pastor at the time (who had SO much time for people and shared about his own experiences), I would not have been able to go through that. The pastor showed me the depression wasn’t caused by sin, and the “hell on earth” experience made me cling to God like never before, everything was taken away, yet He was always there.
As the pastor often used to say ‘there is nothing like a wounded healer’. We need people with compassion and understanding, and to know that God is there WITH US, we are never alone in suffering, etc.
May 11th, 2006 at 4:20 pm
Having helped stir up this hornet’s nest, I think it’s worth pointing out that teaching that depression and mental illness is caused by the devil, throw away your medication in faith and pray… is not a common opinion among clergy. I actually cannot imagine anyone who thought like this would make it through the ordination process in my denomination, where you are analysed from all angles (going through this at the minute myself).
It seems to mostly crop up at the hyper-charismatic “word of faith” healing end of the Christian spectrum (mostly in Pentecostal churches… but in some others… and not in the majority of Pentecostal churches either)
And some at the fundamentalist end of the Christian spectrum probably are a bit suspicious of mental health services because of “godless humanistic values” they imagine underlie psychiatry (pardon the extreme language, but I’m reflecting on the fundamentalist extreme edge.)
So to be fair, very few pastors are as silly as this. But I’m happy to join anyone who feels led to run around at night with flaming torches and pitchforks to picket and terrorise any idiot who teaches this… sorry, this is the 21st century, not the 19th… I’m happy to speak out against such nonsense in a rational forum.
May 11th, 2006 at 4:23 pm
Very few pastors are that silly….but not that many speak out against the ones that ARE that silly, Janet.
May 11th, 2006 at 4:56 pm
That’s a fair call Luke… my feeling is there’s a bit of wishy-washyness in the name of Christian “unity”… I’ve never been to a ministers fraternal to know whether there is a culture of confronting such rubbish… then again, maybe if there was, no-one would go to a ministers fraternal. Anyone else out there been involved in these kinds of gatherings?
May 11th, 2006 at 6:12 pm
This piss-poor excuse that it’s all about ‘unity’ or some such is just a smokescreen for pathetic ineptitude and a jelly-backed, insipid lack of action.
The fact is that your average minister is just terrified of rocking the boat. Society in general, and church in particular, has an extreme aversion to conflict. Now maybe that’s ‘cos they think unity is about ignoring the differences and adopting public service-like language about shared outcomes and joint participation, but I suspect it’s more likely because they are gutless.
Ministers mostly come from comfortabe echurches and families where they never get to really know anyone that isn’t like them, go to the theological colleges that agree with their positions, and don’t get challenged by their lazy parishioners on anything. I have heard of bible college students turn down certain colleges on the rgounds that they’re too liberal/conservative/charismatic/old-fashioned etc etc. What crap! go somewhere you’ll be challeneged and stretched and debated!
I know of one student in a bible college who told his lecturer, an being asked to evaluate two differing commentaries on a passage, “Wer’e not here to learn how to think - we’re here to learn what’s right and what’s wrong”. What a fucking indictment.
Which Bible colleges going the rounds and supplying our churches with pastors would really compare in academic rigour and process to a half-competent university? Not many, I’ll wager.
And we don’t care, because we like our Jesus all comfortable and middle-class and mortgaged, just like we are. Pop goes any notion of being truly challenged or taken outside our comfort zone, pop goes out passion for Jesus, pop goes the whole thing.
Any wonder that we don’t know what to do when conflict arises? We’ve probably got no passion to argue a position we’re not sure we could defend in debate anyway!
We’ve killed any notion of intellectualism or an inquiring mindset in our churches, especially in your young peopole. Many churches have almost demonised learning, knowledge, the asking of questions. YOung people are tuaght that the way to be ‘groomed for leadership’ is to learn to parrot with the best fake sincerity they can muster the lines and cliches of their elders.
We’ve taught 3 generations of the church that passion is not a good quality, that dynamism and debate are bad, that conflict is to be avoided at all costs. And we wonder why shysters and conmen and outright liars aren’t confronted in the church movement?!?!?!
Wake the fuck up.
May 11th, 2006 at 6:15 pm
PS - does anyone really think that the Phil Pringles and Pat Mesitis of the world go to a Minister’s Fraternal and say, “Hey guys, guess what? We’ve found a great way to manipulate our congregations and bilk them for wads of cash! Any problems with that?”
May 11th, 2006 at 6:29 pm
I have just come back from a course that included a theoretical component on Neuro Linguistic Programming for (secular) work - feel like I have just watched a Hillsong sermon.
May 11th, 2006 at 7:00 pm
Which Bible colleges going the rounds and supplying our churches with pastors would really compare in academic rigour and process to a half-competent university?
Believe it or not, the SCBC (Southern Cross Bible College), run by AOG had the equivalent of full-time Uni ’status’, in terms of academic courses, most of the subjects were also ACT (Australian Collge of Theology) accreditited. That was over 10 years ago, things may have changed since.
May 11th, 2006 at 7:05 pm
Not really what I said though, is it?
May 11th, 2006 at 7:15 pm
LF… make sure you use your new found powers for goodness and niceness… reject the dark side of the force.
Luke… I can’t see Phil attending a ministers’ fraternal in a pink fit… or a fit of any hue for that matter.
I actually grew up in a church that had public debates as part of the service, (this was the ’70’s!) and where intellectual debate was encouraged by the leadership. This has impacted me positively for life. And the college I attend is challenging, encourages reading a diversity of views, strives for academic rigour, and has lots of “mature age” ministry candidates. But I think I am probably lucky on all counts: I think the more conservative ends of the church often do promote a very narrow religious view of the world.
May 11th, 2006 at 7:29 pm
Janet, I have no doubt that there are many exceptions to the rule I’ve just outlined in that phillippic….but they are exceptions, not the norm. I’d love to see more churches have pulic debates now - but why is that remarkable rtahe rthen the norm?
May 11th, 2006 at 7:30 pm
Pardon my spelling - *rather than the norm*
May 11th, 2006 at 7:48 pm
Not really what I said though, is it?
This is what you said …
Which Bible colleges going the rounds and supplying our churches with pastors would really compare in academic rigour and process to a half-competent university?
You were asking which bible colleges compared in academic rigour and process to a half-competent university?
My reply was that SCBC did. I believe I can make that judgement, having attended said bible college.
May 11th, 2006 at 8:20 pm
I worked with many Hillsong Bible College students and Southern Cross . Now that is a scarey bunch to work with. A legion of clones unleashed back into society God help us. I have seen more sense in a primary school canteen line.
May 11th, 2006 at 8:38 pm
John I would have to agree with you. Sorry Oygye but SCBC in my opinion is a hoax - I mean not to offend you by that statement but my first experience with a SCBC graduate was when I was 14.
Our little country town received a new ‘Pastor’ from the said institute…
Well the congregation numbers shrank from 120 (very big for a town of 12,000) to little over 30 in 6 months. The guy was a complete arrogant know-it-all and just plain rude.
In my opinion there is but one way to gain understandng in the word of God - he’s got to show you himself -
“Then He (Jesus) opened up their mind to understand the Scriptures” Luke 24.45
Whilst I have nothing against bible colleges I think Luke is really right when he says that in almost every case they wouldn’t match up to a university degree in the slightest.
Just my 2 cents…
WIGGY
May 11th, 2006 at 9:13 pm
A short and simplistic response to Luke… all institutions (and individuals) resist change, and the bigger the institution, the more inertia it carries. So the emerging missional church network seems to have more hope of diversity and debate and creative expressions of church… shifting the course of the Titanic (ie large institutions) takes a bit of doing. Not that I’m excusing said institutions.
I’m at Churches of Christ Theological College… I’ve done a prior degree in science and am stimulated by the academic rigour of the place… plus the sense of humility of a community being on a learning journey.
May 11th, 2006 at 9:21 pm
wiggy
Which church does christine moussa and her husband now attend???
Simon mcintyre seems approachable - is that the case.
May 11th, 2006 at 9:22 pm
I was once a Hillsong Leadership College student.
I used to have to volunteer to serve on Hillsong Conference appearing at Homebush at 7am and finishing at 2 or 3 am to have to appear again at 7am. Driving home for half an hour and driving back for half an hour was part of my 4 hour break every 24 hours.
Students at the college have no choice! They must volunteer to serve on these rosters!
Does anyone know whether Workcover would be interested in this form of Slave Labour and exploitation of Australian and International Students on Student Visas?
Would this fall under Workcover’s jurisdiction?
If so, is it a wise or ethical thing to inform on them?
Any comments would be welcome.
May 11th, 2006 at 9:28 pm
Neil
Who nis the current @IC at HS
and
are Brian and Pat mates again
May 11th, 2006 at 9:28 pm
Neil
current number 2 at HS is what i meant
May 11th, 2006 at 9:34 pm
Ned,
i have no idea! It was supposedly Jonathon Wilson who did appear to be cut from a different cloth but he is “pioneering a church” in Long Beach California or some such place.
Preaching wise, it would be Robert Fergusson.
In the City it is Joel A’Bell. He is a genuine guy but is completely brainwashed into the thing.
I have no idea what Pat Mesiti is doing.
Things have changed a lot since i left in February!
They have cut me out of the loop by not sending me the “Church Updates” any more so i don’t know what’s going on.
Quite frankly i don’t want to know.
What do you think about the Workcover proposition?
May 11th, 2006 at 9:35 pm
Ned -
“…Which church does christine moussa and her husband now attend…”
Not exactly sure Ned - I know it’s a traditional style church though and a far cry from CCC. They are very happy there though, good on them for moving on I say.
“…Simon Mcintyre seems approachable - is that the case?”
Yes, Simon’s nice enough. A lot more open than Phil but really Ned, at the very least he’s an accomplice to the nonsense that goes on up there so I don’t really have a lot of time for the guy. That may sound harsh Ned but I guess if you knew all the stories I did you’d fell the same way… He’s just as worldly minded as Phil in my opinion.
WIGGY