Hillsong article
For those that inquired about the Hillsong article which appeared in the Weekend Australian, the Australian (or more particularly the copyright owner) has agreed to permit us to publish the article on this site for everyone to access, for a fee about the cost of a pair of sneakers. This is unfortunately outside of our (non-existent) budget for this site. Could people either comment here or drop me an email if you would be willing to chuck in some money to make this available, or alternatively if you don’t think that it is worth it to do. Ta.
May 11th, 2006 at 9:53 pm
I did some bible study through the AOG on a couple of occasions (a hills tag along church). Some of those I studied with were ordained based on this.
I also did some theology through St Marks (anglican) as part of a uni degree.
they were poles apart. the AOG prepared me to ask people to fill the offering bucket. The anglicans taught me to queston what I knew, justify my position and made me very uncomfortable by showing me I didn’t know my own God.
if I was to get behind a pulpit, the AOG training would be useless. I could preach based on that, but it’d be shallow and possibly damaging to anyone who listened.
It was a few years ago now, but I haven’t heard of anything changing. It’s appalling that there is such a lack of emphasis on theology. It seems to me that if you’re wanting to be in ministery, a three year degree isn’t a big ask. We expect others to prove themselves academicly, three years to become a librarian and I don’t think my job has such a potential for harming people.
May 11th, 2006 at 10:38 pm
Neil, I think your idea has merit. It wouldn’t hurt to follow it up with some investigation with Workcover. The ‘church’ needs to join the legal and ethical requirements of society. In fact, it should exceed them
May 11th, 2006 at 10:41 pm
Wiggy,
Sorry to hear of your experience with a SCBC graduate. Single bad experiences though, don’t mean ‘all’ SCBC people turn out like that.
Possibly the pastor was like that _before_ he went to SCBC ? There would have been thousands of people go through just that single bible college, and no doubt hundeds of bible colleges world wide, so I like to keep it all in perspective.
Also to keep myself in check, I went there many moons ago, so therefore, I cannot comment on what SCBC is like now. Fortunately I went before HS was known.
Wiggy: In my opinion there is but one way to gain understandng in the word of God - he’s got to show you himself -
“Then He (Jesus) opened up their mind to understand the Scriptures” Luke 24.45
Yes, I agree that to be the way, …. Barnes says it better than me - http://www.studylight.org/com/bnn/view.cgi?book=lu&chapter=024
“3rd. That God only can open the mind so as fully to comprehend the Scriptures. He only can overcome our prejudices, open our hearts, and dispose us to receive the ingrafted word with meekness, and with the simplicity of a child.”
Wiggy: Whilst I have nothing against bible colleges I think Luke is really right when he says that in almost every case they wouldn’t match up to a university degree in the slightest.
Hmmm, … yes, but none of us, I’m sure, have studied and know the curriculums of every bible college in the world though, or even in Australia, and matched them up to a Uni degree. I’m not being flipant, I just think we need to keep it in perspective.
I guess Bible College can either be a time of ‘learning and growing’ and the ‘end product’ is a person who has a deeper relationship/walk with God, or the ‘end product’ will be like the person you mentioned. I know that makes it sound like a ‘factory’, and I haven’t used very good terms to explain myself. Life is a journey and experiences can be good, bad or a mix, and we either learn from them, or like the Israelites, keep going round and round in the desert, until we learn.
For me, it was very, very hard (academically), .. but it was good also. In reflection, I think because it was so intensive (and so much ‘God’ ), I became much more aware of sin in my life, and how absolutely repulsive it was. I can only guess that the more of His word we get into us (i.e. light), then the more we can see our own ‘darkness’. I would go to sing a ‘chorus’, and suddenly realise that the words didn’t line up with His word. What had I been singing all those years !!
I wouldn’t suggest that Bible Colleges are for everyone though, if God doesn’t call you to do it, you will most likely fail, or take a bad stumble at the least. It was necessary for me, …. for the ‘next journey’.
May 11th, 2006 at 11:05 pm
Johm Chris states “if I was to get behind a pulpit, the AOG training would be useless. I could preach based on that, but it’d be shallow and possibly damaging to anyone who listened”.
Johnny, keep your eye on the tithing thread over the next few days.
May 12th, 2006 at 9:30 am
St Johns College in Morpeth (Anglican Theologuical College - bible college doesn;t describe all that is studied) worked closely with St marks in Canberra and all of our degree programs came through Charles Sturt University. Currentl;y our Bishop is negotiating with Newcastle University to get a chair of theology and move all of our ordinands and in fact all of our thological students thoruhgf that university.
I did a year there (St Johns) and the academic rigour was excellent and exciting and challenging
May 12th, 2006 at 4:53 pm
Wiggy’s experience of a SCBC graduate does reflect one thing I have heard about some of the Pentecostal colleges… that they do not have a strong focus on the “ministerial formation” side of theological education… ie personal development, reflection on ministry, motivations, “operational theology”… feedback and evaluation from the congregation, supervisors etc. on ministry performance, character and interpersonal skills. Could it be that a focus on doctrine and “being anointed” (whatever that is) means this area is skimped? I’d be interested in comments from those who’ve been through the system.
May 12th, 2006 at 8:26 pm
I’d be interested in comments from those who’ve been through the system.
There would be a need for recent information, it’s no good looking under the carpet of years gone by. There may be info on the website about the curriculum, certainly the faculty staff are well qualified, see http://www.scc.edu.au/faculties.htm
As for “ministerial formation”, exactly ‘where and if’ if fits into theology, I have no idea. It may well ‘fit’ somewhere else ?
May 12th, 2006 at 9:24 pm
Thanks Oygle… I had a look, but like most websites it doesn’t get down to subject detail. I had no doubt the staff would be well qualified or the college would not pass government accreditation as a tertiary institution.
Ministerial formation subjects are involved in the ordination stream of all colleges linked to the Melbourne College of Divinity I believe… Clinical Pastoral Education, Supervised Theological Field Education, etc. I don’t think you have to do these to get a BTh, but you do to be ordained for ministry.
May 12th, 2006 at 9:34 pm
Janet,
Hillsong International Leadership College is VETAB approved so there goes that theory…
http://www2.hillsong.com/college/default.asp?pid=604
May 12th, 2006 at 9:38 pm
What the ??????
Christ have mercy.
May 12th, 2006 at 10:23 pm
Ministerial formation subjects are involved in the ordination stream of all colleges linked to the Melbourne College of Divinity
Okay, SCBC used to have ACT (Australian College of Theology) accreditation for many of the subjects, so that _probably_ stills exists now ?
May 13th, 2006 at 7:39 am
I don’t think the ACT - linked to BCV, Tabor etc. in Melbourne - has the focus on ministerial formation that the Melbourne College of Divinity has, because MCD is linked to all the denominational colleges… Whitley, CCTC, Yarra etc… who have a strong focus on developing ministers for their denominations.
This is starting to make more sense to me as I dialogue about it… I think the ACT colleges have a stronger focus on developing missionaries, counsellors, youth workers etc. while the MCD colleges have a stronger focus on producing ordained ministers… hence their focus on ministerial formation subjects.
Both have their place… I’ve done subjects at both CCTC and Tabor and found both places require academic rigor of their degree students… they’re just trying to do different things.
If the Pentecostal colleges are linked to ACT I guess they will not focus on ministerial formation to the same extent, which is a shame… it’s a good process. Mind you, I think the Pentecostal church does a great job at the “vision thing”, and it’s a shame other denominations don’t catch more of this.
May 13th, 2006 at 8:23 am
why do they have so many Bible colleges anyway? Everybody in church youth groups is headed to Bible school to get their training as a youth pastor. I wonder how many that go find it to be a waste of time, and the training useless for thier carrer (probably not in ministry). Leadership College ……???….????
May 13th, 2006 at 8:25 am
Hello Lance, I am dropping in to say hi. it’s been a long time since you heard from me. I know this will make your day, but I hope your doing well.
May 13th, 2006 at 8:29 am
“why do they have so many Bible colleges anyway?” very good question Kev! I’ve seen hundreds of starry eyed students graduate from many chuch-based colleges with no real skillls to be able to survive in the real world. The cultural vacuum of their church can only absorb so many of the brightest, most charismatic and the rest are left floundering & confused questioning if God had really called them or not.
May 13th, 2006 at 9:00 am
A Lutheran Pastor recently told me that there are (were) significant tax advantages for Churches that had a ‘Bible College’ … its around being an educational institution.
As well, there is the revenue stream….
May 13th, 2006 at 9:10 am
I don’t think there are any “pentecostal” colleges (no not even Tabor) affiliated with ACT which has an entirely different focus.
May 13th, 2006 at 9:21 am
Staff from Southern Cross College - affiliated with the AOG (i.e. not Southern Cross Catholic College in Qld) have their own (academic) blog.
May 13th, 2006 at 11:19 am
There are almost a blue million bible school still kids/adults floundering around. it is dissapointing i am sure for them to invest good money on their Bible School education - then return to their home church to serve the ministry, only to crash and burn when the church hires an “outsider” top fill a vacancy.
It seems the church is in the church building mode and not the life building mode.
May 13th, 2006 at 11:56 am
I don’t think there are any “pentecostal” colleges (no not even Tabor) affiliated with ACT which has an entirely different focus.
Saint, having attended SCBC in the past, they did have ACT accreditation, this fact was true, as we were graded the same as other bible colleges that had ACT accreditation. The exams were not marked by SCBC staff, but by people endorsed from ACT, or even from ACT.
Note the emphasis, though, ‘did’, so one would have to find out if they still do.
I cannot see how “non Pentecostal Bible Colleges” are a cut above Pentecostal bible colleges, that seems to be suggested in a few threads, reminds me of the Pharisees.
Teach sound theology to both Pentecostal and non-Pentecostal Christians, the end result will depend largely upon the Christian, and their walk with God, not the ‘denomination’.
May 13th, 2006 at 12:27 pm
why do they have so many Bible colleges anyway? Everybody in church youth groups is headed to Bible school to get their training as a youth pastor. I wonder how many that go find it to be a waste of time, and the training useless for thier carrer (probably not in ministry). Leadership College ……???….????
Which would beg us to ask the question “Why go to Bible College ?”
Kevin, I think Jane hit the nail on the head, … in short, make sure that God is calling you to Bible College, .. don’t go for any other reason.
May 13th, 2006 at 1:04 pm
Hi, It’s been a most interesting morning, following this trail. I’m glad that Jesus struggled with all of this stuff too. Didn’t they kill him for asking some pretty uncomfortable questions of the religious authorities….?
I went through a college known as ‘Aquila’ in Waterloo in the mid nineties. This college and local church structure were later subsumed under the brand of Hillsong, so I know things are much more, shall I say ‘orderly’ now. Although hardly accademically rigorous, this period did allow me to hear from a few different denominational viewpoints through the variety of lecturers, some of whom were violently opposed to the coming vision centred corporate takeover. Using this information, along with some old bits of string and some Perkin’s Paste (remember that? what a great smell!),I was able to weave together a foundation for where my own life and ministry were heading (and what to avoid). After trying the ‘Saul’s armour’ of charismatic/pentecostal ‘ministry, ‘ including a brief soujourn, (along with my wife), to a missions tenure in Romania, I began to reconsider my stance towards local church,(which is a discussion in itself) the idealised role of the traditional minister, and the fact that I was spending a huge ammount of time supporting a structure, with which I was becoming increasingly alien towards (or was it alien towards me?) the image of a cookie cutter comes to mind,-similar to some threads previous…Besides, I sensed that God was doing something completely new and different, outside the ‘hype,’ and Rock’n'Roll music minus the angst, a quality that good R&R really requires. The ’sound’ that I was hearing has led me to the field of healthcare, where I’m currently working as a mental health nurse. I’m still on the journey, which is taking me leagues away from the consumer oriented stuff that we are seeing in the Citysongcentric expression that is currently on offer. I’m open with a listening ear and some appropriate medication for the disaffected. Just present at the emergency department…
May 13th, 2006 at 1:18 pm
You’re an answer to what could loosely be described as a prayer Matt K.
There are people connected with Signposts who are experiencing post-traumatic stress as a result of their days at Hillsong or Hillsong-clone churches, or have had their bi-polar or depressive conditions exacerbated by being in such cults…err…churches….errr…..cults.
And of course if you have qualifications in the mental health area….you may be able to explain to us the underlying nature of Brian Houston’s Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
May 13th, 2006 at 3:25 pm
Look! Brian Houstons car for sale. See long comments.
http://www.carsales.com.au/pls/carsales/!cs_content.private_vehicle?vehicle_id=3061195¤t_rec=1&used_rec=222&total_rec=97&sort_type=&total_rec=97&sort_type=&make_id=10&model_id=19&keyword=WAGON&state_id=2&search_distance=25
May 13th, 2006 at 4:09 pm
Matt K. What do yiou think about St Johns Wort?
May 13th, 2006 at 4:26 pm
HE SHOULD PUT SALACILIC ACID ON IT
May 13th, 2006 at 5:56 pm
ogyle - they may have in the past or may have had an arrangement for students to take subjects at other campuses when they could not have offered it themselves.
From current info some degrees at SCC seem to be offered under Sydney College of Divinity banner.
May 13th, 2006 at 7:37 pm
Janet, I don’t agree that MCD is focused more on creating ‘ministers’ than ‘missionaries’ - the vast majority of people in my church have done at least a few subjects at Whitley, many of them have a BTheol, and all have done it for ‘interests sake’, not for ordination…I’m doing Hebrew Bible this semester and there’s only one person in my class who has any intention of going down the ordination path, the rest of us are in the corporate sector or social services and are doing it more for interests sake than anything else…
Ogyle, I actually do think that in Victoria at least, the non-Pentecostal colleges are far more rigorous than the Pentecostal ones. The Pentecostal colleges (and indeed some non-Pentecostal ones) want to teach you how to think the “right” way - from what I’ve seen of lectures in those environments, and the students coming out of them, there is a culture where the question is “what does the Bible say?” rather than “what *might* the Bible say?” That’s a subtle but important difference. I think that’s shaped in part by the culture of different denominations - Anglicans, Baptists etc all have an emphasis on ordination if you want to call yourself a minister, while in Pentecostal churches basically anyone can call themselves a ‘pastor’. Historically this has flaws (division of clergy/laity, privileging of the role of the former over the latter), but today, the emphasis on a critical education has immense strengths.
May 13th, 2006 at 7:40 pm
oh…I should add, Ogyle, that what I’ve said above is just generalisations…I do know people teaching at Pentecostal colleges who are trying to challenge that, just as I have no doubt that at some of the non-Pentecostal colleges, there’s a move towards giving people the “right” answers rather than encouraging lots of questions…
Interestingly, I’ve got a Law degree, and I can guarantee this isn’t something limited to Christian colleges…in law there’s an approach called ‘black letter law’, which basically holds that what the law says is easy to discern, you just have to read it. Most of my teachers didn’t really agree with that…:D
May 13th, 2006 at 9:14 pm
Southern Cross was once a good coolge. David Cartridge was a very good & honest man but then it was taken drom him & given to a Brain Houston clone. ScBc ar la hillsuck.