Hillsong article
For those that inquired about the Hillsong article which appeared in the Weekend Australian, the Australian (or more particularly the copyright owner) has agreed to permit us to publish the article on this site for everyone to access, for a fee about the cost of a pair of sneakers. This is unfortunately outside of our (non-existent) budget for this site. Could people either comment here or drop me an email if you would be willing to chuck in some money to make this available, or alternatively if you don’t think that it is worth it to do. Ta.
May 13th, 2006 at 11:33 pm
Here’s an example of what you can study in Bible college:
1 Chronicles Chapter 1 (KJV)
1 Adam, Sheth, Enosh, 2 Kenan, Mahalaleel, Jered, 3 Henoch, Methuselah, Lamech, 4 Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. 5 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras. 6 And the sons of Gomer; Ashchenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah. 7 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. 8 The sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, Put, and Canaan. 9 And the sons of Cush; Seba, and Havilah, and Sabta, and Raamah, and Sabtecha. And the sons of Raamah; Sheba, and Dedan. 10 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be mighty upon the earth. 11 And Mizraim begat Ludim, and Anamim, and Lehabim, and Naphtuhim, 12 And Pathrusim, and Casluhim, (of whom came the Philistines,) and Caphthorim. 13 And Canaan begat Zidon his firstborn, and Heth, 14 The Jebusite also, and the Amorite, and the Girgashite, 15 And the Hivite, and the Arkite, and the Sinite, 16 And the Arvadite, and the Zemarite, and the Hamathite. 17 The sons of Shem; Elam, and Asshur, and Arphaxad, and Lud, and Aram, and Uz, and Hul, and Gether, and Meshech. 18 And Arphaxad begat Shelah, and Shelah begat Eber. 19 And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of the one was Peleg; because in his days the earth was divided: and his brother’s name was Joktan. 20 And Joktan begat Almodad, and Sheleph, and Hazarmaveth, and Jerah, 21 Hadoram also, and Uzal, and Diklah, 22 And Ebal, and Abimael, and Sheba, 23 And Ophir, and Havilah, and Jobab. All these were the sons of Joktan. 24 Shem, Arphaxad, Shelah, 25 Eber, Peleg, Reu, 26 Serug, Nahor, Terah, 27 Abram; the same is Abraham.
28 The sons of Abraham; Isaac, and Ishmael. 29 These are their generations: The firstborn of Ishmael, Nebaioth; then Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam, 30 Mishma, and Dumah, Massa, Hadad, and Tema, 31 Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah. These are the sons of Ishmael. 32 Now the sons of Keturah, Abraham’s concubine: she bare Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah. And the sons of Jokshan; Sheba, and Dedan. 33 And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Henoch, and Abida, and Eldaah. All these are the sons of Keturah. 34 And Abraham begat Isaac. The sons of Isaac; Esau and Israel. 35 The sons of Esau; Eliphaz, Reuel, and Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah. 36 The sons of Eliphaz; Teman, and Omar, Zephi, and Gatam, Kenaz, and Timna, and Amalek. 37 The sons of Reuel; Nahath, Zerah, Shammah, and Mizzah. 38 And the sons of Seir; Lotan, and Shobal, and Zibeon, and Anah, and Dishon, and Ezar, and Dishan. 39 And the sons of Lotan; Hori, and Homam: and Timna was Lotan’s sister. 40 The sons of Shobal; Alian, and Manahath, and Ebal, Shephi, and Onam. and the sons of Zibeon; Aiah, and Anah. 41 The sons of Anah; Dishon. And the sons of Dishon; Amram, and Eshban, and Ithran, and Cheran. 42 The sons of Ezer; Bilhan, and Zavan, and Jakan. The sons of Dishan; Uz, and Aran. 43 Now these are the kings that reigned in the land of Edom before any king reigned over the children of Israel; Bela the son of Beor: and the name of his city was Dinhabah. 44 And when Bela was dead, Jobab the son of Zerah of Bozrah reigned in his stead. 45 And when Jobab was dead, Husham of the land of the Temanites reigned in his stead. 46 And when Husham was dead, Hadad the son of Bedad, which smote Midian in the field of Moab, reigned in his stead: and the name of his city was Avith. 47 And when Hadad was dead, Samlah of Masrekah reigned in his stead. 48 And when Samlah was dead, Shaul of Rehoboth by the river reigned in his stead. 49 And when Shaul was dead, Baalhanan the son of Achbor reigned in his stead. 50 And when Baalhanan was dead, Hadad reigned in his stead: and the name of his city was Pai; and his wife’s name was Mehetabel, the daughter of Matred, the daughter of Mezahab. 51 Hadad died also. And the dukes of Edom were; duke Timnah, duke Aliah, duke Jetheth, 52 Duke Aholibamah, duke Elah, duke Pinon, 53 Duke Kenaz, duke Teman, duke Mibzar, 54 Duke Magdiel, duke Iram. These are the dukes of Edom.
God really wants us to know this, doesn’t he? The Bible is full of shit like this, and people think its God’s word. Bible colleges all around the world study this stuff.
May 13th, 2006 at 11:55 pm
Has anyone seen the list of casualties at Hillsong college to see a counsellor. It goes on and on. Workcover would have a field day. As they love America so much we should bring over their lawyers and they would eat them alive. Hillsong is not of this world though, so they don’t have to adapt to the laws of the world. Lets see how that holds up in court. I was told on countless occassions that the world would not understand what goes on here. Gotta love that one. I understand what they are doing and it is sadly of this world.
May 14th, 2006 at 11:32 pm
What a staggeringly hatefilled and ignorant series of posts. I understood emerging church conversations were about openess and generosity to “the other”, yet these posts sound like the sort of unreasoned and uninformed witchhunt attacks that used to be made by dogmatic fundamentalists. For what it is worth, Southern Cross College is now led by Stephen Fogarty, who was a close friend of David Cartledge until his resent death (responding to demented mars). Brian Houston has little if anything to do with the college (and i say this as a statement of fact, not because i would join in your bile filled critique of him). The college has 8 permanent staff with PhD’s - earned from various colleages accross the ecumenical spectrum, and cannot justly be critiqued as unthinking.
The article upon which this whole conversation started was written on the basis of interviews of 4 or 5 dissafected members. Judging any organisation only on the basis of those who left unhappy can hardly be considered fair and objective journalism. Were someone to do the same to any of your churches, i am sure similar articles could be written. This is not to say HS is the perfect church - no doubt it is far from it, and it could benefit from constructive criticism (as could we all). But surely it is not the task of the emergent community to spend so much time attacking a church. Perhaps a discussion of your own strenghts and weaknesses would be more useful?
May 14th, 2006 at 11:41 pm
Are you discounting the personal experiences of abuse at Hillsong and other similar mega-churches, Cliffo?
Do you not see a pattern emerging that is disturbingly consistent?
May 14th, 2006 at 11:41 pm
For my part, the comments made were directed squarely at my own faith communities. If you feel upset, so be it.
But if the cap fits….
May 15th, 2006 at 7:36 am
Actually, i am not upset. Just surprised at unsubstantiated critique from Christians. The critique of SCC, for example, was based on no current knowledge of the institution. In respect to Hillsong (a church that i dont attend), i simply think that biased media reporting needs to be recognised. Take for example the fact that two of the people interviewed were gay. Whatever your views on this issue (and for what its worth, i think it is high time the church rethought the way it responds to the gay community), the fact is that HS would not be alone in its response. Almost every other church in the Sydney could be critiqued in the same way. So, an article based on a very small number of ex members cannot be called objective reporting. What about the large numbers of people who believe the church is having a positive impact? At the very least, an newspaper journalist should seek both sides of the story.
As far as the cap fitting - i guess that can go both ways
May 15th, 2006 at 8:42 am
Hi Cliffo
As you may be aware the following statement was made in the SMH article entitled ‘The Lord’s Profit’s (2003):
“He earns some of his money, he says, as a property developer, “being a silent partner with a couple of guys from the church in building developments…” in the SMH article entitled ‘”The Lord’s Profit’s” (Source:
http://www.smh.com.au/cgi-bin/common/popupPrintArticle.pl?path=/articles/2003/01/28/1043804401241.html
My own original request to Hillsong through the appropriate channels (August 2005) for clarification surrounding the discrepancy between this and Brian’s later denials resulted in a delivery receipt from Hillsong – but no reply.
Conversely, the author of the SMH article took the time and courtesy to promptly respond to my enquiry.
He confirmed that this was an ‘on the records statement’ and that he has the tapes and transcripts for these statements. (I have sent a copy of this response to Dan who may at her discretion verify that she has sighted this response).
As a Memver of Hillsong could yuu please obtain an official Hillsong response that explicitly confirms that Brian NEVER made the above mentioned ‘on the record’ statement for the said article. In addition, could you please obtain for me detailed financial statements on LMI and Hillsong Church – this is also something that no-one has been able to do.
The Hillsong response can either be in electronic email version or on Hillsong letterhead. You can obtain my email address from Dan.
If you cannot fulfill a simple request like this, I suggest that you listen and investigate before you comment… you may well be involved in a networked family controlled Business that leverages peoples spirituality and emotions to get at their finances … much like scientology.
People on thos Blog have been doing their homework.
http://dogfightatbankstown.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/web_2.jpg
Have a nice day.
May 15th, 2006 at 9:16 am
There arent gay people, just homosexuals. I see a lot of these “hurt by the church” people are homosexuals. You cant blame hillsong for homosexuality. I remember there were homosexuals long before Hillsong. The Bible says you cant be a homosexual & a Christian at the same time. The homosexuality is a chosen sinful lifestyle and it will be judged in the same way as every other sin and perversion. Homosexuals are used to getting their own way in the world through political correctness and anti discrimination and antivilifications laws but that doesnt cut it in the church so they get all bitter & nasty & the teeth come out & they bitch on. They never overcome their so called “hurt & bitterness” because they need to stop their homosinfulality & be delivered of it.
May 15th, 2006 at 10:50 am
Considering that your heterosexuality has no doubt led YOU into sin at previous times Chine Plate, should you be asking God to ‘deliver you’ of it?
May 15th, 2006 at 11:21 am
Luke … its like giving pearls to swine.
These HS people are essentially ‘brainwashed’. My bro-in-law’s mate helps out at conferences, believes mega-church Pastors have the right to CEO equivalent compensation, its Ok for them to be family controlled, and believes that financial transparency in Church in not required.
I think the edges of his rationality a blurred by the emotion and the hype. Yes, it is ‘Brainwashing’.
Time for an extended break…
Bye for some time guys!
May 15th, 2006 at 11:48 am
Luke, Heterosexuality is normal & proper. The attraction between male & female is normal & proper. Heterosexual intimacy is only sinful when practiced outside of marriage.
Homosexuality is abnormal & improper & sinful in any degree, in feeling, thought or action and cannot be compared to what God has designed - neither can it be made right under any circumstances.
Why are homosexuals always trying to justify their perversion. If they do not repent of their sins and seek to defend their wickedness whilst calling themselves Christian, they should be driven from the church with pointy sticks. Same goes with an unrepentant liar who seeks to justify his lies and the lies of others.
May 15th, 2006 at 12:03 pm
Hi China Plate… I have written a reply to you on another thread. I would really appreciate your thoughts
May 15th, 2006 at 12:12 pm
You didn;t answer my question. If you have lusted after someone in your heart, is that not the same as sin? And if it is not your heterosexuality that caused you to do it, what did? Do you need to be delivered of your heterosexuality?
May 15th, 2006 at 12:18 pm
Bec says: … but today, the emphasis on a critical education has immense strengths.
Yes, and I agree with most of what you have stated in your comment. I know Jesus is our perfect role model, how young he was when he opened up the scriptures to the much older people, He had a great understanding of the scriptures at such an early age. As he is the Word (and whilst on earth the ‘Word become flesh’, and dwelt/tabernacled amongst us), and “I and the Father are one”, then I wonder at times if Jesus had to be ‘educated’ as such, or whether His understanding of scriptures, might be looked on, more as, understanding of ‘Himself’ ?? I don’t have those answers though.
To look at Paul might be easier, now he was very well educated, and was an excellant leader (despite the problems at Corinth, etc), church planter, apostle, etc,etc. I don’t think people can have too much education, can they ? It all depends on what they are being educated, and I see the importance of people ‘thinking’ for themselves also.
Currently trying to ‘digest’ a book by Spurgeon called “The Soul Winner”, and on sermons he states “There must be enough of Jesus preached in a sermon to save a soul”. Note there has not been a revival since his days, a lot can be said of educating, and educating ‘correct’ theology, etc. For some reason, I have more of a leaning (of late) towards people like Spurgeon, etc, they really understood God’s word, and were able to bring that understanding to people, not in highly educated words that ’simple’ people will not understand, but in a way that all will understand.
I sometimes think that the Gospel is ’simple’, it has to be, otherwise only highly educated people would be saved. Yet at the same time, I think that if heresies are being preached and taught, they need to be exposed as such, hence the need also for (sound) education. Yes, there seems a definite need for more education, and the right type of education at that, … there are too many people who have fallen under the ‘trap’ of heretical teaching, … most especially grace is misunderstood.
Did guys like Spurgeon read a lot ? See http://www.spurgeon.org/fsl/library.htm
May 15th, 2006 at 12:37 pm
China Plate, do you believe one can be a Christian and proud, since pride is an abomination, and it would appear the two, according to Proverbs 16:5, are mutually exclusive.
Also, do you believe one can be haughty, and lacking in love, and be a Christian?
Lance.
May 15th, 2006 at 1:13 pm
Oygle - Did paul’s education come after being saved or while still a jew? Did Spurgeon generate revival by his study - or was it a move of God’s grace that brought it on?
there are too many people who have fallen under the ‘trap’ of heretical teaching, …
would that be as in the Cult of … I mean Church of Christ (non music) or the Calvinist “presdestination” or the United Pentecostal Church “Jesus Only” doctrine - or the charismatic “seek ye first the money” or the catholic church’s heresies, the baptist heresies or the Mormon heresies - or the Universal Salvation heresy…
So many heresies and so little time!
May 15th, 2006 at 1:56 pm
Lance.
Love is good
pride is bad.
I suppose it is what it is directed at.
If love is directed at money then that is sin. If one is proud of his God & boasts in his Lord couldnt that be right?
I know I am proud of my God.
May 15th, 2006 at 1:58 pm
“If one is proud of his God & boasts in his Lord couldnt that be right?
I know I am proud of my God.”
Then what kind of pride is being described as an abomination in Proverbs 16:5?
May 15th, 2006 at 2:21 pm
Oygle - Did paul’s education come after being saved or while still a jew?
Both. But post ‘being saved’ was a different type of ‘education’. None of us ever stop learning.
Did Spurgeon generate revival by his study - or was it a move of God’s grace that brought it on ?
The subject was education, and Spurgeon was well educated. Yes, good point about a move of God’s grace, but unless preachers/teachers can bring out the true/real meaning of Gods word, real expository preachers, then how can revival happen ? There are other components of course, I don’t know of any ‘formula’ for revival, but I see it as being important, to look at the great men and women of God, that are from the past, for the simple reason that they (seemingly) are not around today ?
If revival isn’t happening, then what is being preached ? Peters famous sermon, there were thousands saved on that single day, and what blows me away is, they cried out “What must we do to be saved” ?
Surely their cry came from such a conviction of sin (they were pricked in their hearts from memory), and them knowing of their inability to save themselves. They cried out !!
Today, we have preachers inviting people to be saved, and this ask Jesus into your heart, …….. where is that in the Bible ??
Without the Holy Spirit convicting people of their need to be saved, there will be too few cry out and ask. Without men like Spurgeon (i.e. well educated in Gods word and able to deliver a sermon), there will be little (if any) truth in the sermon. Without truth, I cannot see how the Holy Spirit will truly move in a mighty way, and “prick” our hearts.
For some good meat, instead of the watered down milk - http://www.spurgeon.org/spsrmns.htm
So many heresies and so little time!
Good, sound doctrine/theology (sourced from teaching & education) will surely expose the heresies for what they are. It is then up to individuals to choose truth or lies.
May 15th, 2006 at 2:33 pm
Ogyle, I was never suggesting that a sound education is the be-all-and-end-all. We must come to scripture with the right hearts and minds also. I wasn’t trying to say that it was about the level of education - it’s rather about the spirit of it. If people are only taught WHAT the Bible says, and not to seek that for themselves (ie colleges that don’t genuinely encourage debate), this does not encourage or enable people to think for themselves. This goes right through the church…so many of my friends waited to have sex because “Sex Before Marriage Is Wrong”. MOST of them hadn’t really thought that through. On the other hand, I was brought up in an environment where neither my parents, nor my youth group leaders, nor my pastors would simply give me “answers”….as a kid, if I asked “is sex before marriage was wrong?” (or “is homosexuality wrong?”), the response was always “what do you think?”, and encouraged to discuss it. While I later found out that this was seen as somewhat dodgy parenting and pastoring by some of my friends, I can guarantee which method was more “successful” in terms of achieving the desired results… simply telling people what to believe doesn’t work anymore. In any sense. It doesn’t enable people to develop their own, independent faith, it doesn’t equip them for life generally. We need to create churches and Sunday Schools in which people are encouraged to figure things out for themselves in community, in which people learn HOW to believe rather than WHAT to believe…and if those things aren’t happening in our bible colleges/theological colleges/whatever, how on earth can we think that they’ll happen in our churches?!
May 15th, 2006 at 2:49 pm
Lance,
A proud person does not need God
May 15th, 2006 at 3:24 pm
“Lance,
A proud person does not need God”
All the bible’s warnings about pride are written to people who are already believers.
May 15th, 2006 at 3:29 pm
Bec, no I didn’t think you were sugesting that a sound education is the be-all-and-end-all.. But we cannot discount education, can we ?
I don’t understand this ..in which people learn HOW to believe rather than WHAT to believe ??
I do agree we need to think for ourselves, but never at the expense of ‘no counsel from others’.
Without the what to believe in, I see no belief at all, … think about it.
(It could well be that I’m not understanding the WHAT/HOW issues expressed though ?)
I try and look at it simply, The Bible is God’s word and it tells us what is right and wrong.
May 15th, 2006 at 3:52 pm
Lance does the word remnant mean anything to you?
May 15th, 2006 at 4:11 pm
You’re being obscure again Homer.
May 15th, 2006 at 4:14 pm
obscure.
Lance, proabably all the Jews thought they were righteous believers yet there was only a remnant.
Was the bible only for believers?
May 15th, 2006 at 7:58 pm
“Did paul’s education come after being saved or while still a jew?”
As if the conversion experience can wipe out someone’s cultural identity. So Paul was no longer a Jew after conversion?
I can see an attitude there.
May 15th, 2006 at 8:03 pm
Macadamia Nut said - “…or the Universal Salvation heresy…”
I take exception at this Nutsy. I’m of the belief that God’s word actually does teach Universal reconciliation. Homer (EP @ LP) and I have biffed this out over in a thread titled ‘Does God put a stop to bad things?’.
In a nutshell anyone who believes in U.R (as I do) believes that the sacrificial death and subsequent resurrection of Jesus Christ is a perfect sacrifice and will yield perfect results. After all Christ is called the ‘Saviour of the World’. Can’t very well be a saviour if you don’t save and you can’t very well be a saviour ‘of the whole world’ unless you do just that - SAVE THE WHOLE BLEEDIN’ WORLD.
Nutsy you should know that the folks who frequent Signposts are a broad and varied bunch so best to keep those ‘heresy’ comments to thine self…
May 15th, 2006 at 8:40 pm
Ouch Wiggy, if the end for all is the same, does that mean we are all destined for the lake of fire where the smoke of our torment rises up for eon upon eon? Lake of fire is right there at the end of Revelation!
Too many holes in universalism! No man comes to the Father but by Me; Sheep on the right Goats on the left; These went off to eternal life the others went off to eternal punishment …. Universalism, may be a warm fuzzy idea but unsupportable theologically. Like so many heresies, universalism has emotional appeal but is not consistent with scripture.
Wiggy, you dont really believe that those that die in their sin will inherit eternal life do you?
May 15th, 2006 at 8:53 pm
James, what we have in the Bible might only be “phase one”. In phase two, God let’s us all in on the joke over a couple of joints and lines of coke in heaven.