Hillsong article
For those that inquired about the Hillsong article which appeared in the Weekend Australian, the Australian (or more particularly the copyright owner) has agreed to permit us to publish the article on this site for everyone to access, for a fee about the cost of a pair of sneakers. This is unfortunately outside of our (non-existent) budget for this site. Could people either comment here or drop me an email if you would be willing to chuck in some money to make this available, or alternatively if you don’t think that it is worth it to do. Ta.
May 15th, 2006 at 9:08 pm
Hi James & Wiggy,
there is a thread on universalism elsewhere on the site as the topic did come up a little while back. I for one have found it fascinating these past few months, as it is not something I had ever researched before.
These two sites were particularly interesting & may provoke further discussion.
http://www.bible-truths.com/
http://what-the-hell-is-hell.com/HellScholars.htm
May 15th, 2006 at 9:13 pm
Wiggy,
What years were you at CCC? - Was it in the Brookie days or more recently?
May 15th, 2006 at 9:27 pm
That “what the hell is hell” is one hell of a site, Jane, that seems to support Universalism.
May 15th, 2006 at 9:35 pm
You’re right Duck - it has a hell of a lot of links on the subject
May 15th, 2006 at 9:55 pm
Wiggy - loved the nutshell comment - I guess one man’s conviction is another mans heresy. We can all find colleges and websites and PHD’s that teach heresy (like UR for example) and then become more educated in our empty, vain, and corrupt lifeless philosophy. That seems to be the point, at least to me, of a lot of religious education. What do you do when people are over educated in the wrong thing - did you ever talk to the Jesus Only folks who have been educated in it? It’s like trying to teach a great white shark not to eat meat.
May 15th, 2006 at 10:07 pm
Well,
Those whom think openly & progressively will be pleased - some may not. Some may already know - but the word is a small group out of gay men have been attending Hillsong Waterloo on a fairly regular basis led by dynamo Anthony Venn Brown ( formerly “Youth Alive” & “Every Believer Evangelism” Pioneer) - the most amazing part about it? They are not hiding the fact that they are gay & (ahem) “management” is aware of it & not taking steps to dissuade them.
As AVB puts it “things are changing”.
Maybe we have been looking for “signs & wonders” in the wrong places. We should all take a moment to appreciate the significance of this.
May 15th, 2006 at 10:24 pm
Too many holes in universalism!
I agree james, it is a cult - http://www.carm.org/universalism.htm
May 15th, 2006 at 10:34 pm
Because as soon as Pente churches realise that their main criteria for membership is fulfilled in gays the better : -
1. We’ll look great for them
2. We know plenty about entertainment production.
3. We have disposable incomes & no dependants (they’re fave).
4. We make super-efficient deacons.
5. We make fabulous assistants.
6. We’re thick-skinned & don’t crumble under scrutiny.
7. Better singers for the choir.
Shall i go on? ;o)
Think i’m overtired, no-one’s listening - bedtime.
May 15th, 2006 at 11:49 pm
Thanks to you to Jane, check them out on the morrow. Or maybe the morrow after the morrow as i have a big morrow on the morrow.
May 15th, 2006 at 11:56 pm
Oygle, have you read any brian Mclaren? Would you think that he leans
toward universalism?
gotta snooze, nite all
May 16th, 2006 at 12:39 am
Reve -
the best part would be that “awesome” would get the shove, soon to be replaced by “fabulous”. Also, all those Hillsong straight guys who doll themselves up (dare I use my least favorite adjective: metrosexual) would soon be overlooked by potential girlfriends, as every chick knows the good looking ones must be taken or gay.
At the risk of starting something crazy here, to yourself and some of the other gay bloggees, what response do gay Christian’s offer for the references to homosexuality in the bible? Would you argue it’s a mistranslation thing? Or a Christ’s grace thing?
I don’t consider myself phobic of anything much, save 25ft waves and my legrope breaking. Neither am I a traditionalist. But I must admit that I had always assumed the references to homosexuality in the bible were pretty straight forward … ie it’s a sin, and repentance requires a desire to turn from sin.
What’s the gay Christian’s response?
May 16th, 2006 at 9:09 am
Rollsy,
Our response generally is to historically contextuallize the Bible’s take on homosexuality & to remember that God’s Son on Earth had between 28 & 33 (5 years) to mention it & didn’t think it was necessary.
Our response is to say that in an era when hygeine & sickness would have been a major issue plus the concept that a Gay Son meant death to the family lifeline all would have been determinents in their take on gays.
We respond that Paul , for instance was trying to work through isues himself that made him very uncomfortable & this is evident in the way he speaks.
We take the humanist view thast the writers of the Bible were human & flawed & predjudiced & thast the Holy Spirit was filtered through this.
If the Holy Spirit inspired you to write, would NONE of your own personal predjudices or disconforts make it on to the page?
THe Holy Spirit worked through broken vessels, remember - the words did not just appear on a page.
May 16th, 2006 at 9:54 am
Are you going to say that you never noticed that almost all of Jesus’ teachings were about love, compassion & acceptance & that it was only the Apostles whom had such strong opinions?
The answer is simple, God is perfect, Jesus is perfect, THe Holy Sprit is perfect…………….the Apostles were not.
May 16th, 2006 at 11:19 am
Yes Reve and no person talked more about the perils of hell either.
interesting perspective on the bible.
Read these books but leave these others!
May 16th, 2006 at 11:58 am
EP,
Understand this, when you are faced with a real & personal situation in your life that is not addressed adequately & comprehensively in your doctrine. When you find something about your life that seems not to be supported by your doctrine but does not change through prayer after years……you will be in for a very nasty shock.
There is more in this than is covered by your literal understanding.
Through your rigidity you have made yourself impossible to comminicate with, are you aware of this? I’m sure others must have told you.
Do you think God is proudly nodding & approving of your staunch inability to discuss anything other than literalist scipture?
I think it is more likely that he would shake his head with an understanding smile & say that you have more to learn.
All you do is push people away using the Bible as leverage, how many souls are you winning for Christ this way?
I suspect you wouldn’t allow me to get close enough to be your friend even i knew you & wanted to.
May 16th, 2006 at 12:14 pm
with the greatest respect it is addressed.
you merely, like the man in 1 cor 5, want to ignore it.
no Christian can
May 16th, 2006 at 1:00 pm
EP,
When i go home after work i will humour you & read that scripture because that sems like all you are interstested in. Because it would make me ignorant & arrogant if i didn’t.
But how will you deal with my challenge to you to really see real people in front of you with real problems & real issues? How will you address confused people in pain whose christianity will need to be more than words on a page.
And EP, how do you demonstrate your love? I need to believe there’s more to you than the way you’ve responded here. Do you believe you’re loving me here?
Would you prefer disconnection remained betwen us because I happen to be gay & that’s the only way you know how to respond to me?
Met me where i am & as what i am EP, is this beyond you?
May 16th, 2006 at 1:26 pm
There is nothing loving about telling someone it is alright to sin when we are clearly told it isn’t.
All scripture is good for reproach etc.
Read it and let God talk to you.
May 16th, 2006 at 1:39 pm
God does communicate with me EP, sometimes he tells me to read between the lines as that’s where the Grace is, that’s what i’m trying to do with you right now.
I don’t need anyone to tell me what sin is, i have you as my subject matter expert. Indeeed it’s all you seem to know about.
May 16th, 2006 at 1:56 pm
Jesus was able to live in the tension between holding to high moral standards, yet showing amazing acceptance and grace.
EP - I don’t think that Jesus (generally speaking) would feel compelled to point out people’s “sins”, rather He would journey with people and through relationship and God’s Spirit at work, issues that need dealing with and emotions that need healing can happen. Just telling someone that they are in sin does nothing but heap condemnation upon them without relationship. And that is precisely what made Jesus angry.
On the flip side, living in this place of tension between morality and grace means that homosexuality and other “sins” do not have to be justified or explained away. I can’t bring myself to say that homosexuality is right in God’s eyes, but I am prepared to see beyond it to accept the person without expectation that they will change, but just to fully accept them as they are. And in this tension, God is much more able to work as He wants.
I don’t see why people can’t keep high moral standards, but also see beyond their morality and see people….
May 16th, 2006 at 2:22 pm
A question I have though that I am currently grappling with and would appreciate people’s feedback, and is relevant to this discussion now…
What about morality and leadership? I feel that grace can and should accept totally a person as they are, and that everyone should be able to serve within a church community. But what about at a leadership level? Are there expectations and requirements that are not imposed on someone just serving? How do you define what is leadership and what isn’t?
Any comments?….
May 16th, 2006 at 4:17 pm
Reve you said - “…What years were you at CCC? - Was it in the Brookie days or more recently?”
Hey Reve. I was @ CCC as a staff member from apporx 96-2000.
So, NO - not in the Brookie days. Why do you ask? Are you an ex-CCC person too?
James FYI when Homer and I were slugging it out over @ ‘Does God put a stop to Bad things’ I pointed out many times that Revelation is symbolic. The Lake of Fire in my opinion is as symbolic as the Candlesticks, 7 headed beasts and seas of glass.
Also James you appear to answer your own question.
You admit that no man come come to Christ unless he is drawn. Here is that scripture -
“…No one is able to come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him…” John 6.44
The word ‘draw’ should really be translated ‘drag’.
It’s used in John 18.10 in reference to Peter drawing his sword. Did the sword fall out of the sheath? I think not.
It’s also used in John 21.6 in reference to the disciples ‘drawing’ in a haul of fish. Did the fish just willingly hop in the net and then launch themselves into the boat? Nope…
It’s also used in the following scripture -
“…And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself…”
John 12.32
My conviction is that just like the sword and the net Jesus Christ will drag all of humanity to himself. The Lake of Fire James to my understanding is God’s purification tool and is part of this ‘drawing’ process.
Hope that helps you see where I’m coming from a little clearer James.
WIGGY
May 16th, 2006 at 5:19 pm
Good question Wayne.
I Timothy 3 and Titus 1 talk about the character qualifications of overseers of the church. My opinion is that it is extremely important that church leaders are of good character, because of the influence they have on the whole church. Although some of the qualifications are cultural by our standards (there is no need to rule polygamists out of leadership in our society… this is against the law in Australia) others seem universal to me.
Hillsong, to give a much hashed example, might be a healthier church if the criterion “not a lover of money” be universally applied the leadership there.
So one might be able to accept a lying swindler in the congregation, but a church that makes such a person a leader (or treasurer!) is asking for trouble.
May 16th, 2006 at 5:59 pm
“…Wiggy, you dont really believe that those that die in their sin will inherit eternal life do you?”
James no offence mate but you contradict yourself here. You’re argument is that everyone inherits eternal life but that it is spennt in one of 2 different places - Heaven or Hell.
So you’re actually saying that everyone does inherit eternal life aren’t you?
What did God say about sin to Adam?
“…And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Eating you may eat of every tree in the garden; but of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you may not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, dying you shall die…” Gen 2.16
And Satan said this about the same thing -
“…And the serpent said to the woman, Dying you shall not die…”
Gen 3.4
So which one is it James? Do we live forever or do we die?
WIGGY
May 16th, 2006 at 6:09 pm
Hey Wiggy,
I was a Ministry Training College Student in either 94′or 95′- can’t rightly remember. I also served as a deacon around that time, attended a House Church & was water-baptized through them. I was saved through CCC & was very much in love with their music around that time. I was there for the Power Team & RHB (T Blessing) & all that stuff.
I remember that in MTC if PP was coming in to teach, a lady would come in just before him & tell us we had to stand in a mark of respect as he enetered the room. Do they still do that?
And was any reason ever given why so many of the Asst. Senior Pastors (the chosen few) were all from PP’s native New Zealand? Hardly ever Australian. Strange, hey?
I remember being in awe of PP - one thing he does have which BH does not in my opinion is genuine charisma. How that’s being utilized is a completely different matter.
May 16th, 2006 at 6:24 pm
I was 21. Excited.
And COMPLETELY out of touch with the individual i now know as myself.
I cannot however, deny that it was exciting & dynamic. Nor can i say i regret going when i did, & no, they never kicked me our for being gay or anything. I never came out until 24.
CCC was one of the excuses i used to delay self-acceptance. That’s my stuff & not to be blamed on anyone else.
May 16th, 2006 at 7:06 pm
Hey Reve. Yes the charisma of PP… Not sure that I would call it that myself but anyway…
Did he tell the students (as he does every year) the story of how some councillor stood up at a council meeting they had about the church land development? Apparently this guy died very mysteriously soon after he’d opposed the development and called Phil all sorts of names in the meeting. Phil would then conclude the story with ‘I tell ya, you don’t touch the Lord’s anointed’. The students would all gasp “Uhhh…” and this spooky aura would come over them… Yep - ’tis true.
WIGGY
May 16th, 2006 at 7:31 pm
Nope, i didn’t know that any Warringah Alderman died - must have somehow missed that in the Manly Daily. Yes i can see how that could be “homourously” used as a pre-emptive control tool.
The äahs’” of the students, how funny, how young & dumb were we all?
Still though, i still think he has Charisma to burn, a very powerful orator - more so that many of the yanks. His gift in the way he used his vioce to evoke certain emotions is without peer in any other preacher i’ve ever watched. I think the guy is a force of nature, actually.
BH might have the bigger church & a more successful music ministry attached to him but he is no way the same class as PP as a speaker.
PP has a rasputin-like power & uncanny understanding of the subtelties of ppl’s emotions, i have never seen the like. It’s scary.
He may hand his church down to one of his son’s, but they have extroadinarily big shoes to fill. Do you think either of them are up to the job?
But yes, his focus on money is so obvious now - i thought he was too clever to be so apparent about it.
May 16th, 2006 at 9:30 pm
Thanks for your reply Janet about morality and leadership.
What constitutes leadership within a church community? In some ways everyone is a leader. When and how should leadership be distinguished as different from being a member or just serving withing the community?
May 17th, 2006 at 3:02 am
You cant Wiggle out this easily, So which one is it James? Do we live forever or do we die?
You know as well as i do, … or not …, that death signifies a state of separation from God. Thanatos in the Greek! Pre-empting a cheap reply; animals that are not created in God’s image simply seek to exist upon death. Man’s body returns to the dust, ceases to exist if you wish. But man, being made in God’s image, is also spirit.
Anyway, so as not to give offense to you either (and certainly none was taken), let me explain in simple words:
Those who remain separated from God at the time of their physical death will remain separated from God for all eternity and not spend eternity with God. Those that have been brought back into relationship to God through the blood of Christ while physically alive will remain spiritually alive with Him for all eternity.
Contradict myself Wiggy? Think not! You just need some help with remedial language studies
i dont agree that the Scripture supports the universalism thesis, however i do find it interesting to note that at the Great White Throne there is still a book of life.
But to answer your question: It depends, are you in Christ or are you in your sin. Life or Death! (Not meaning you personally, im fully confident that you yourself are in Christ - even if you do have some lousy doctrine)