muslims on tape less scary
Greg the explorer (who recently celebrated a birthday - check out the comments on that thread, by the way) pointed me to this short article:
St Paul’s in Paraparaumu says any church which tries to put on a choral work including the Muslim call to prayer is going to run into problems.
A choir due to sing the work at the Kapiti Coast Anglican community objected to the Adhan being performed inside the church.
Archdeacon Lyall Perris says in a hard-won compromise, a recording of the Adhan will be played in the foyer. He says the problem is the declaring of another faith within a church.
I have a bunch of these stories. Once a speaker at a young adults event set out his theory about why nobody should participate in martial arts because you would be required to stand in certain stances which are actually positions of worship to bad and evil gods. In short, don’t do martial arts because you might find yourself inadvertantly worshipping another God. Or the heaps of people who object to yoga or tai chi or similar exercise programs being carried out on consecrated church grounds.
Our church ministry centre also doubles as a convention centre which for some reason is really popular with wedding receptions for people of other faiths. Does that mean we are all going to hell?
May 2nd, 2006 at 3:55 pm
I hope we will see the day when we can be secure enough in our own faith that we don’t have to be so scared of everyone else’s. But it seems that fear is the currency of the day….
May 2nd, 2006 at 3:59 pm
I was gobsmacked when i read that article - whay can’t we all juist love each other and seek understanding and mutual growth toward God?
I am reading a book called The World from Islam by George Negus which is so far proving very interesting - well worth a read if anyone gets a chance.
BTW - the public displays of affection on my birthday posting are not to laughed at Dan - I am humiliated
May 2nd, 2006 at 4:17 pm
I think it is kind of cute - we have certainly engaged in public displays here from time to time.
May 2nd, 2006 at 4:23 pm
Thank you Dan
May 2nd, 2006 at 4:34 pm
“Does that mean we are all going to hell?”
yes, yes it does. Real shame that, because otherwise you are such good people.
May 2nd, 2006 at 4:53 pm
It seems that with the number of peopoe excluded from heaven that it may well be a very lonely odl time after all!
May 2nd, 2006 at 5:24 pm
Martial arts are sinful
happy birthday
the rev
May 2nd, 2006 at 6:19 pm
oh bugger, i’m going to be flame bait here but surely we can’t fault him for this. i’m all for tolerance, peace relations, but let’s face it, it’s not likely that we could ever declare our faiths in a mosque without causing a similar response.
besides, the first testament has much to say about worshipping other gods…but then i’m assuming that Allah≠YHWH which i admit is not entirely correct. needless to say, without opening a whole can o’ worms, at the very least we can see that YHWH is kinda picky about worship and cultic practice at times.
i suppose what i’m saying is that it might be all very well for us to say that Allah and YHWH are one in the same, but i doubt that works for both sides of the debate when we really get into it in any depth. Trinity is a problem for a start.
the story cited is in a different league to the martial arts one for this reason. the martial arts thing is actually just superstition in the same vein of freemasonry spirits holding churches back.
the outcome of the cited story though is that while it would have been harmless in many ways to perform this in the sanctuary, i’m not convinced it would be the greatest statement about how wonderful Jesus is in our story.
let the flames begin…
May 2nd, 2006 at 7:39 pm
having said all that, compromising by allowing a recording be played kinda undermines his stance since it’s still proclaiming the same thing…though i suppose it’s no longer ‘his’ people doing it which maybe makes things different to him…
May 3rd, 2006 at 4:19 am
Often fear holds us back and makes us say and do things embarrassing to our faith, but I’m with Stu - God is a tad thingy about His worship and jealous to keep it His not going elswhere.
I would rather err on the side of caution than be offensive to God.
I stoppped yoga because it didn’t feel right.
I grew up in ashrams before becoming a C’an and this stuff is real, watching people levitate while chanting, can scare the hell out of you!
Obviously there is tolerance for all people but by definition our faith is very exclusive.
It doesn’t allow for all roads lead to Rome.
May 3rd, 2006 at 7:59 am
Another example of very poor understanding of biblical doctrine.
God is holy and we are supposed to be holy and what is being offered here singing from a satanic religion.
Only Jesus leads to Heaven and Muslims deny his deity and his death!
What next have Buddhists chanting?
May 3rd, 2006 at 8:50 am
But isn’t this just overestimating the power of a building? To me a church building is just that, a building. I don’t see how the fact of someone else offering worship in another faith in the same place as me in any way impacts the value of my own worship.
I agree that God is jealous, but is he jealous of my building? Or is he jealous of my commitment and attention?
Let’s flip it. If we were missionaries to a society which was non christian and we prayed to or worshipped God in a place which we would otherwise consider to be pagan, then would that make our own worship somehow less valuable?
May 3rd, 2006 at 9:23 am
Great point Dan.
I don’t doubt that this stuff is ‘real’, but I do think that to a large extent things have the significance we give them. One of my friends flips out if she goes into Buddhist temples, hates it when I burn incense, etc, because she grew up Buddhist. However these things have no significance for me - I have never ‘felt’ anything in a Buddhist temple, nor have I experienced any impact of visiting one - I don’t believe that there’s little demons flying around reading to pounce on me and steal my soul. If God is ALMIGHTY then I shouldn’t fear that…I love the sound of the Muslim call to prayer, and for me it speaks of commitment, communal worship and other things I value. I *do* appreciate that it might push buttons for some people - however for me those buttons are entirely positive…
Homer, do you see any growing and changing understanding of God in the Old Testament? Do you not see any recognition of indigenous religions, or at least other names for God, there?
May 3rd, 2006 at 9:33 am
Dan & Bec,
What do you think would be the reaction if we saw Baal priests being allowed to sing in the Temple.
You two also seem to be missing the significance of putting God and other gods on an equal footing.
The Building is not the point. It would be the same if you met in the park and then allowed Hindus to chant where you meet.
May 3rd, 2006 at 9:38 am
Dan once again you bring some intelligence and sense to otherwise farcical statements (I’m not talking to Stu or JIF here…Homer [EP@LP], you know who I’m talking to to.)
Jesus did away with Temple woship and at the point where the curtain was ripped worship became not about a place but an attitude and an internal recognition of Jesus as Lord and God as creator and sustainer of the world. Jesus told the Samaritan woman when she asked who was right - the Jews or the Samaritans- regarding where they worshipped, what did Jesus say? Neither of them, it’s not about the building and it’s not about form or style (The Samaritians didn’t accept the entire hebrew scriptures and yet Jesus said nothing about having to accept a certain canon as scripture! An interesting little point that Homer).
Stu, I think that despite our differences in theology most Muslims actually would say that we worship one God - Allah and God are one and the same. Homer you are a moron, there’s no doubt about it - how can Islam be a Satanic religion when it comes from the same source as Judaism and Christianity? Is Judaism a Satanic religion?
May 3rd, 2006 at 9:51 am
This theme kind of fits into a discussion we got into at Tangent last night- whether it is okay to host a poker game to raise money for Amnesty in a church building, (no cash prize, ie. not gambling).
May 3rd, 2006 at 9:52 am
Greg, you are the morn.
how can God be Allah when the Quran denies the deity of Jesus and also his death on the cross and more importantly completely denies one can ONLY get to Heaven through Jesus.
It doesn’t come from the same source as the Bible or is it you have never read it?
Indeed you are worse than a moron you are positively dangerous.
Greg also said Jesus said nothing about canon.
Here is the verses:
21Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, (Y)an hour is coming when (Z)neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.
22″(AA)You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for (AB)salvation is from the Jews.
23″But (AC)an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father (AD)in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
24″God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship (AE)in spirit and truth.”
err wrong again Greg. congratulations. Jesus actually says quite the opposite.
also no one is talking about a building but where you meet as a church. As I said it can be in a park.
May 3rd, 2006 at 10:50 am
Where in all of that copy does Jesus say anythin that is like “Oh and by the way Samaritan it is not good enough to simply accept the writings of Moses (which is all the Samaritans accepted as canonical) you have to accept the whole lot?” Where Homer? Point it out underline it! Make it as clear as you can for one as lowly as me.
So Muslims are Satanic because they deny the deity of Jesus? Sop do Jews, are they Satanic as well??
What possible difference to God could it make if Hindus chanted while we praised God? It would only make a difference to us…we are the ones who are jealous of our own religion.
You point out in the scriptures you quote that Jesus also said salvation is from the Jews we worship what we know etc…Has God changed religions? Is salvation still from the Jews or is it only in the Christian religion? OR has God changed his mind again and we’ve all missed the boat?
May 3rd, 2006 at 10:54 am
Any way Homer I posted over on The Essentials thread the following:
I’ve done some more research….ah, forget it we all konw who the morons are (and don;t anyone say I’m one cuase it;s just not true…I konw cause my mummy says i’m cool).
So please don;t call me a morn again
May 3rd, 2006 at 10:59 am
This is not even something you need to develop an opinion on, Paul is quite clear that we make no mistakes with regard to food offered to idols and the principle is the same. I tire of these discussions. Sorry. Its just that I have endured them long enough over the years.
May 3rd, 2006 at 11:16 am
What are you saying Paul says emerging blurb? My understanding is that if your faith allows you to eat meat offered to idols then that’s fine - but if it causes others to stumble then you shouldn’t. He doesn;t say you shouldn’t enter into a discussion about the validity of a certain opnion or idea.
To me it is this simple - my faith allows me to believe that I am not in possession of the whole truth and nothing but the truth for all of time - but that I am in posession of what God has given me through his grace. The singing of a Muslim call to prayer can have absolutely no effect upon me or my faith.
May 3rd, 2006 at 11:27 am
Greg, take a very close look at Verse 22 and then cogitate on it.
Satan is the father of all lies. Denying Jesus is a lie. ONLY Christianity is the truth. Anyone trying to tell another story to that is doing Satan’s work.
As I said previously if you as a christian allow ANY other religious group to do anything where you meet you are giving de-facto public support to that religion indeed making them equal with god.
What happens next is that one invites them to speak because you are so tolerant. A pity God isn’t!
Another example if needed of what happens when very poor understanding of biblical doctrine is involved
May 3rd, 2006 at 11:55 am
Homer,
I understand that you are fearful that God will judge you. That you see God as not tollerant of those whom you disagree with. I hear that you are very fearful that associating with people of other faith will dillute your relationship with God.
I don’t agree with you. I would echo Greg when he says - “To me it is this simple - my faith allows me to believe that I am not in possession of the whole truth and nothing but the truth for all of time - but that I am in posession of what God has given me through his grace”
But I can see that you are fearful - I hope that you can become more secure in your faith, that it becomes strong enough to allow others to have a faith that differs to you.
May 3rd, 2006 at 12:02 pm
I agree with the Blurb, Homer its clearly an issue for you, so don’t let it happen near you, cos it may cause you to stumble, but others it may not, so let them be.
If you truly believe our God is the only one then therefore shouldn’t you believe there is no power in anybody else’s prayers/chanting, and even if there is, isn’t our God bigger than all of that. So if He’s the Almighty one we say he is, then we have nothing to worry about right?
May 3rd, 2006 at 12:10 pm
I have cogitated, pondered, ruminated reflected and considered (a thesaurus is such a good thing!) verse 22 and this is what it says:
22″(AA)You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for (AB)salvation is from the Jews.
And this is evidence that Jesus told the Smaritan that they had to accept the whole of Hebrew scripture…how? He was pointing out that he believed te Jews knew God better than the Samaritans (me thinks the Samaritans might not have agreed).
May 3rd, 2006 at 12:20 pm
Greg
Are you saying muslims will enter heaven purely on their Islamic faith??
that is
they have not accepted Jesus as their personal saviour.
May 3rd, 2006 at 12:21 pm
hey does anyone want to go to this with me?
http://theol.whitley.unimelb.edu.au/revup06
May 3rd, 2006 at 12:34 pm
I just did a quiz onlilne and apparently I’d make a great Muslim - see my results at my blog or take the test yourself at http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=5495&
Ned, I’m not saying whos in or out - I can’t make that call. Do I believe that other religions are entitled to respect and being treated with dignity? Yes. Do I think they are as valid as mine? Yes. Do I think I’m wrong? No…but I could be!
May 3rd, 2006 at 12:58 pm
i’ve posted this up here before, thankfully repeating yourself obviously isn’t a problem on this site…
“The tragedy is that many people are afraid of losing or endangering God and so seek to protect God from adventures, to resist attempts at radical inclusion that might, they fear, compromise God’s purity and holiness. Protecting God is a variant of not trusting God.”
- bill loader
May 3rd, 2006 at 1:12 pm
Greg, why do you think he thought the Jews might know better?
hint Psalms, minor prophets etc which he actually quoted?
Phil,
fear isn’t the word. all paths lead to Hell except that one where Jesus is.
It is a pity people are so tolerant they can’t except this.
you allow people of a satanic religion to do any sort of act on property you own or have your designation on you are giving them respect they should never have.
The Whole O/T is a story of god’s chosen people always wishing to be popular with other people and embracing their religions instead of bringing them to god as they should have been doing.
Their understanding of doctrine was a bad as the understanding shown here!