Monk, you make some good points in #20 and #21. Different to what i thought you were saying; at the same time consistent with your previous posts. I had just missed what you were saying; no need to talk to me about puny minds.

On the issue of engaging with those who are seeking Truth, the example of Paul on Mars hill is appropo. He begins by commending the people for being in the search for truth, then without maligning or ridiculing them for their worship of all sorts of stone gods, he begins to unfold for them the message concerning The Truth. Hey, just re-read your #13 … thort somebody else had been commenting along this same line … im laughing at my own silly self now.

Its been good engaging with you Monk; need to think snooze soon.

The debate must be entered from the post modern door, otherwize, you will be like one of those guys in bourke st mall in melbourne who stand there all day from morning to night reading the Bible from a mega phone, claiming to be speaking the TRuth.. with a capital T. Nobody will give you the time of day, let alone listen to what you have to say. I only believe this coz its my everday experience. I learned it the hard way..

Jim, Im talking about how does the Truth, with a capital T (The Gospel of Salvation in Jesus) engage with a world that is searching for Truth with a capital T, but is skeptical of any claim to Truth with a Capital T.
its a mighty difficult task, and the hole business of Creeds and foundational belifs are obviously important…

“For the postmodern world view to have any validity then there must be alternative Truths by which one might come into relationship with God …”

For the post modern mind, ( the minds that we talk to every day) there ARE alternative truths. But not necessarily Truths that bring one into relationship with God.

Its a real big conversation, and too big for me to get my puny mind around. Ive just given up trying to fight the whole world.. with my puny little matchstick faith. TRUTH is not for me to gaurd.

The truth is out there, Jim…

Im not trying to push here, just trying to understand. For the postmodern world view to have any validity then there must be alternative Truths by which one might come into relationship with God …

One of my favourite songs about Jesus is by powderfinger. a good picture of the searching post modernist.

“Oh Jesus Christ, what name do you go by now?
For time is passing, wind blows new decrees.
Canned for life, your used by date is faded
and followers of you now watch tv.”

Thats TRUTH Jim…

But so is this…

The end of the song finishes with Bernard Fanning still a little disturbed,

“On my own i stand naked…
Oh Jesus Christ, dont look at me that way,
Dont look at me that way..”

Im afraid we already live in a post modern world. Battening down the hatches of truth wont help. Engaging with a little more openness to the questions being asked in the world we live in might.

I may have misread McLaren, especially as “a new kind of christian …” was a work of fiction. His “a generous orthodoxy” appears to set forth his theology and, as such, should shed some further light on his world view. I will withhold further comment on his teaching till ive had a chance to read it.

But Monk, its never been about McLaren or any other person, to me the issue is summed up: Is Jesus The Christ; is Jesus The Son of God; is Jesus The Truth etc. I believe He is; my theology may be pretty stuffed in a lot of areas, but one thing i know; I know in whom i have believed. Now if Christ is not The Truth (Deity, Saviour, all He claimed to be) and if salvation is not entirely by grace, through faith in Him and even that faith not of my own but a gift from Him, then i am lost - for He is my only hope and in hope against hope i wait for His promise. Both in this life (albeit with oft accompanying despair) or in the life to come.

If Jesus is The Truth, then all the philosophies of man that are not founded in Him are to my mind nothing more than men deluding themselves and/or chasing after phantoms. So, to my mind, to seek to establish the veracity of the words of Jesus (and in a broader sense, the bible) may well be the most valuable pursuit of mankind.

Doesnt it juat say the same thing in different language? This, to me affirms Jesus as Deity, the ONE way, ONE truth, ONE life - Jesus.

I shouldnt really comment coz I havent read McClarens book. And I dont really want to.

Monk, you diverge from the “new type of christian” thesis when you state:
“Paul engaged with the Philosophies of the day ( Mars hill) and saw the good in them that Led to guess who…? the Alpha and the Omega.”

The Athenians were somewhat post modern; accepting and intergrating all forms of faiths. Paul didnt ridicule them, showed them respect, but then proceded to argue that there was “One way, Jesus” … this is entirely anti-postmodernity! One could say Paul gently led the philosophers of the day from post-modernity to evangelical fundamentalism. McLaren goes in the other direction … embracing and integrating the gods of Mars Hill!

Digger, i enjoy a bit of the dramatic, there are probably better uses for McLaren’s book … door stop … My argument with McLaren is quite well summed by Andrew’s #2 critique of McLaren’s “creed”. On thes surface it reads quite nicely. When you look a little more closely you find that Christ is being denied His Lordship and His Deity, repentance is never mentioned and the Cross is robbed of its centrality. I found the same to be true of “a new kind of christian” … an entertaining read, but a dilution of Christ.

Nite all

When I read his lifes journey though,( augustine) I see a hard won and rigourous faith that was REAL, and authentic, if not given birth to with much labor.. The danger with dismissing philosophy as evil is that you completely shut off dialogue.