Those flingin flangin emerging churches
Greg the explorer sent me a link to this article which seems concerned to put several nails in the coffin of the emerging church:
In the UK, a nudist beach mission has just finished in Wales. Graceway, a church in Auckland, New Zealand, encouraged its members to ‘pray with your hand around a cup of coffee’ as a way of experiencing the Spirit ‘as warmth in your spirituality’. In Canada, a church called Worship Free House doesn’t offer sermons – but does install art.
According to prominent evangelical church leaders, all are symptomatic of a dangerous protest against biblical orthodoxy. While The Da Vinci Code puts the gospel on trial, the emerging church questions established biblical teaching throughout church history by offering what they says is a more authentic expression of Christianity.
“Some believe [emerging churches] to be the greatest challenge to mainstream churches since the birth of the Charismatic movement,” says Andy Peck, assistant editor of the UK’s Christianity+Renewal magazine in a recent article. “As some churches struggle to grow they will welcome emerging church thinking with open arms. ”Labels are useless to describe this alternative Christian movement, which has exploded out of the UK and the US and is now expanding into Australia.
Proponents like to talk in terms of ‘connecting’, ‘sharing’, ‘re-imagining’. They say the movement is not one as such but rather a ‘conversation’ within Protestant Christianity. They say labels are unhelpful to their cause. It is perhaps easier to define what the emergent movement is not. “This is not biblical theology,” says Canon Jim Ramsay, Director of Sydney Diocese’s Evangelism Ministries. “It’s a shaking of Christian orthodoxy.”
Punch ‘em in the goolies!! Singled out for criticism (implied or otherwise) are people like Cheryl, Steve (or Graceway, anyway), Darren and of course big bad bustling Brian McLaren. Interestingly, the only person on that list who has never commented here is Brian McLaren. He should get his act together. Or alternatively, he should stay away so that he doesn’t contaminate us with his non-orthodox Christianity.
Of course they are particularly worried about a Wales naturist beach mission, described here in an article published on April Fools’ Day, complete with founders Adam and Eve and a Sir Pent who invites Eve to pass some fruit to Adam. Clearly the site which published the article, emergingchurch.info is evil, as it has the temerity to list signposts as a link!
June 11th, 2006 at 4:55 pm
Thanks GR. That’s the sort of ” organisation” that an anti-emerging church movement would start with. The difficulty with blogs, of course, is detecting whether they are forming communities themselves, or represent/attract a significant number of people who are a disorganised minority voice without structure.
June 11th, 2006 at 8:30 pm
I can’t remember how to do the italics!! PGG said:
“I can see that one of the (necessary?) qualities of the emerging church has been to critique the traditional/existing church. As I understand it, new movements of significance often start out at the fringes of the old. ie. The outcasts. So a degree of criticism from the centre is also implied.
I guess the trick is to encourage criticism in both directions in ways that are constructive, or at least civil. I detect a good deal of anger, even hatred?, in some of the responses to that photo essay on purgatorio1.com… that GR posted. Bloody funny post, though.”
I pretty much agree…I guess I’ve thought about this a lot in relation to “the left”, and the way we (I say ‘we’ because I would place myself in the left…no surprises there really!) tend to demonise ‘the right’. For example, how often do you hear people on the left (and in fact the right!) speak of human rights as if they’re a “left wing” issue?! That’s complete rubbish - human rights should not be the domain of either the right or the left, they are actually the domain of BOTH, but the different sides of politics have different notions as to how to achieve them. It’s really unfortunate that this happens, because it marginalise people on the right who are working for change.
I really, really, REALLY hate church politics. I think it’s really nasty stuff. I hate the way there’s so little room for constructive critique. I hate the way concerns and criticism are always personalised, even though they shouldn’t be. I hate the fact that there’s so rarely room for any kind of genuine engagement and conversation about lots of issues. I think that often, those of us in the emerging church movement have carried a lot of baggage because of this, and we have been less than sensitive in the way we communicated our critique (I have certainly been guilty of this). Equally, however, the institutional church has shut it’s doors and refused to listen to any kind of critique, producing instead the kind of garbage that was published in the article that started this thread. It’s unhelpful to everyone involved, and it’s not at all conducive to building the Kingdom of God. One of the reasons I treasure my relationships with people who are really (really, really, REALLY) different to me in terms of their faith and politics (though I don’t think the two are so easily separated!) is that I feel like together we can begin to build some of the bridges necessary to truly build the Kingdom of God. I learn from them and I hope that I can give something to them.
*end rant*
June 11th, 2006 at 9:24 pm
Hi Bec,
I am with you as being of the left. I don’t often admit it to people ’cause in non-virtual life I am surrounded by political conservatives and talking about political social policy, the belief in taxes for the common good, human rights, the possibility of being both pro-choice and believing in right to life, the thought that Jesus came for the literally oppressed not just the spiritually oppressed and so on is kinda like banging my head against a brick wall. Also being attracted to anabaptist tradition for many years - well most people I know wouldn’t have the foggiest idea about anabaptism.
So I am currently reading two very very diverse books. 1. Thomas Boston on Repentance and 2. Emerging Churches by Eddie Gibbs & Ryan K Bolger.
Frankly as fire and brimstone as Boston is it is a far more refreshing text than the self absorbed tones of the Emerging Church. I guess this brings me to my point and why I have be researching the critques of the Emerging church on the web. I want to be following Jesus not what some people see as the way of the future. I want Jesus, the Jesus of the bible the one who did call us to repent the one that spoke “the truth” not just my interpretation of the truth. I am a product of post modernism and I do at times find myself presenting Jesus even to myself in relativistic terms but of what use is that if there is no underlying absolute.
Please feel free to totally bombard me with your opinions re above. I am ranting and I am not sure if I am putting the right words to my concerns.
June 11th, 2006 at 9:56 pm
Bec and GR, you are speaking my language. Amen, girls.
As for “left” issues and “right” issues, I am reminded of “masculine” and ” feminine” qualities. Black and white thinking turns an emphasis into a definition. Instead, we need to recognise that we are all HUMAN beings and that many or all of these concerns and qualities are the concerns and qualities of humanity.
So, human rights and social welfare and all the other “left” issues need to be concerns of all politicians and all voters. And tenderness and gentleness is a quality that can typify both men and women, as can strength.
I am reminded of Jim Wallis’ thesis that the US liberals have, by allowing the conservatives to hijack the religious discussion, missed out on an opportunity to address religious perspectives in a different way. As if only one side of politics can take an issue or approach as theirs.
June 11th, 2006 at 9:57 pm
And, Bec, the italics are done by emphasis and without the spaces
June 11th, 2006 at 9:58 pm
darn with em in between and /em at the end.
June 12th, 2006 at 5:32 pm
BTW….lest you think this article was a one-off for the Sydney Anglicans, check this out:
http://www.sydneyanglicans.net/indepth/already_sick_of_the_emergent_church/
Talk about naa-asty!!
June 12th, 2006 at 6:56 pm
I don’t know, Bec. I’m pretty sick of the jargon too. I thought he was quite reasonable in supporting Carson’s approach of engaging with emerging churchites, rather than being defensive.
Carson is much admired in Sydney. I think his approach to emergents, who may well be flirting with problematic ideas as well some ideas that are useful, is worth adopting.
This is a time when conservative evangelicalism could be outgoing and confident. That’s one benefit of the diocesan mission. Like Carson, we don’t have to be defensive in the negative sense of that word when we meet something new.
In short, I wish Southern Cross had thought of the title of McLaren’s book first. It’s called Generous Orthodoxy. It sums up what we should be and are at our best.
June 12th, 2006 at 7:13 pm
June 14th, 2006 at 6:45 am
mmm….I thought the first paragraphs and the final paragraphs looked like they’d been written by different people!!
June 14th, 2006 at 8:17 am
carson’s book actually slams the emerging church… and (following a similar path to some sydney anglican articles we could mention) did it all without talking to anyone in the emerging church… it’s an interesting way of ‘engaging’
i’m actually not really associated with the emerging church, and i’ve got lots of questions i’d want to ask about it, but there has to be a better way of engaging than this…
June 28th, 2006 at 10:30 am
Just posted this to the Blackstump Christian Music & Arts Festival website under General Comments, they probably won’t display it or reply but will post it here if they do : -
“Hi guys,
Will there be anyone “progressive” or from an “emerging church” background speaking about sexuality issues? Can we asume that Gay Christians are warmly welcomed to BlackStump along with everyone else? (genuine question, not a doctrine fight-picking one).
There are a few of us that are really interested in hearing Christian speakers tackle genuine real-world issues in a multidenominational setting such as this.
Would Blackstump ever consider having someone like Anthony Venn-Brown (author of “Coming out of the Church: One Mans Struggle”) speak at the festival? Anthony was the original founder of Youth Alive & international evangelist in the 80’s who now helps people reconcile their sexuality with their faith.
Or maybe someone from MCC? (Metropolitan Community Church in Petersham).
Would the concern be that more conservative attendees might be offended?
I’m just thinking of how to expand the Christian community of Blackstump with the richness of some variance. Something that really shows the cutting-edge of changing-face Christianity in Australia. There might be growth in it for everybody & would show BS’s committment to “keeping it real”.
Your thoughts?”
June 28th, 2006 at 12:04 pm
Ha Ha!
1.5 hrs later & plenty of posts displayed timed after mine.
Looks like Blackstump lacks the maturity or wisdom to cope with the types of questions i have. Like Hillsong & other organisations, all they can cope with is music - nothing real.
I just laugh.
June 28th, 2006 at 1:28 pm
It’s one of the reasons why I hate the whole Christian music/worship culture with a passion.
Very very homophobic.
I’ve had similar experience with Black Stump people.
They’re only there to play their guitar…get a girlfriend and have fun….and they only think when forced to.
The whole Jesus thing is irrelevant to them.
June 28th, 2006 at 1:48 pm
You are so right, Lance….
3 hours have passed now, no displayed post, no reply, not even an email to me to explain why or suggest a different forum to discuss it. They just simply don’t want to deal with it.
Nothing more than a second or third generation bunch of pew-warmers whose commitiment to any issues outside their little world equals “chardonnay socialism”.
They think all they have to do uis buy a “Make Poverty History” coloured wrist-band & run around listening to bands & drinking coffee.
You’d never guess it but i did a beach outreach mission with one of their main organisers 10 years ago & he praised me for my street cred as a street missionary. Guess he’d see that as redundant now i turned out to be gay.
What was your experience with Stump, Lance?
June 28th, 2006 at 2:07 pm
I tried a similar thing on a Black Stump forum a few years ago.
The replies had been posted before the webmaster had a chance to remove my post.
It was just the usual anti-gay rhetoric…. …’please keep the discussion pure’…blah..blah..blah…
I know of some gay people in worship teams who were treated very shabbily once the gossip started.
Anyway…I’ve emailed the Black Stump website people…and pointed them to the Signposts discussion.
Not that they have the balls to defend their position (or lack there-of)
June 28th, 2006 at 2:09 pm
I think what usually happens ..is the gossip goes around about the gay worship team member……others start feeling ‘uncomfortable’ in worship….and then the gay person is disposed of…because of the perceived threat to the ‘unity’ of the worship team.
June 28th, 2006 at 2:29 pm
I just had an email back from the co-ordinator of Black Stump.
Says he’s going to pass on our concerns to the festival’s teaching co-ordinators.
Yet again…we have under-estimated the power and reach of Signposts.
Although I think the secret in these things…is to send such an email to multiple people at once…..so none of them individually can ever say that they never saw the email..and ignore it.
June 28th, 2006 at 3:03 pm
Heh Heh,
Lessons from the Master,
So long as “passing on our concerns to the festival’s teaching co-ordinators” is not a buck-pass that dissapears into the abyss. I’m sure they’d forget about it if we let them.
Obviously no reference to my post? (guess that would be asking too much).
I think if they canvassed their punters they’d realise that alot more young Christians than they think would like to hear progressive teaching on sexuality.
But i guess like any charity they rely on corporate sponsorship that may pull out if BS start getting more progressive than the oldies are comfortable with.
Money talks even in the non-pentecostal world.
June 28th, 2006 at 3:11 pm
Hey guys,
This is Fraser Tustian - I guess I’m the “web team” you speak of!
Umm… I’m afraid I don’t know any of this stuff of which you speak!
Reve… I’m afraid we haven’t had a single post since 10.30am today, the time you said you posted your message… I have no post from you, but nor do I have any of the “plenty of posts displayed timed after mine” that you referred to at 12.04!
Could you confirm for me where you posted the message, how you posted the message, and what the other posts that have been approved after yours are? Just trying to figure out whether there’s another site you’re using that isn’t ours, or whether there’s been a problem, or whether this is all a big April Fool’s Day joke
Umm… I also can’t think of a single reason why I wouldn’t approve that post. I *only* filter for profanity and personal abuse… I think I’ve knocked back about 2 posts ever… there actually *was* one just yesterday that came close but I let it through. I can honestly say I’d have no reason to censor a message like the one you’ve posted above.
Lance, you say that I removed a post of yours a few years back and said something like “keep it pure”. You got any more details on that for me? I can only once remember ever removing a post once it had gone live, and that was a political comment that had been made in somebody else’s name.
“Keep it pure” sure doesn’t sound like the sort of thing I’d say… and I’m the only person on the web team!
Cheers all,
FRASER
June 28th, 2006 at 3:41 pm
Hi Fraser,
Well you’re right there is a problem then, because see on your site under General Discusion where it says “The newest user is mcbino” sometime between 10.30-11am it said “The newest user is Reve” & i even had a profile from there (wish i’d copy & pasted it for proof). So it was acknowledging me as as a user but my post never made it.
I registered to start a new discussion under “Progressive Teaching” or something very similar, i put down my user name, email address & did your little visual thing down the bottom, i got registered & was given a large field to post in which i did & then submitted.
You can understand how, considering the above & the nature of the post that i had my concerns, yes?
And yes i agree there is no reason for you not to post it as indeed i used no profanity & will never.
I do however, have my doubts about the willingness there might be to discuss such a subject openly due to the fact that you may feel some responsibilty to the conservative element of BS supporters & punters not to contradict their values (that may indeed be your own).
Am i definitively wrong about this?
June 28th, 2006 at 3:49 pm
Hey Reve,
Sorry to disappoint you, but you’re definately wrong about this.
Don’t know what “responsibilty to the conservative element of BS supporters & punters not to contradict their values (that may indeed be your own)” you’re talking about! Sorry to disappoint!
I can confirm that you registered this morning. Keen to know why the post didn’t work - I was doing some work on the system last night, but I’m not aware of any glitches. Can I get you post again?
And can I get you to identify the “plenty of posts displayed timed after mine” seeing as you were using them to publically have a go at me?
Cheers,
FRASER
June 28th, 2006 at 3:51 pm
There you go, i have just logged in ising the UN & PW that i used to make that post
———————————————————–
Who is Online
There are currently:
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1 of 11,974 registered users online: Reve
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& here is my “Profile”
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Viewing User Profile for: Reve
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Joined: 28/06/2006 09:50 AM
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Reve has contributed to 0 out of 361 total posts (0.00% of total).
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________________________
Why do you have all that but not my post? If you look right now on you’re site you will see me logged in.
June 28th, 2006 at 3:58 pm
Hey Reve,
Umm… yeah, but could you try making the post again?
You’ve confirmed that you’re logged in okay. If there’s a problem though, it’ll be with the forums engine… try making the post again and let me know when you’ve done it - if it’s not there, I’ll put a test post of my own through and see if I broke something last night…
Cheers,
FRASER
June 28th, 2006 at 3:59 pm
No-one is publicly having a go at you, Fraser. I never used your name anywhere but to reply to you here. Please don’t get defensive or personal, i have not done this with you, rather i have only referred to BlackStump as a cultural identity unto itself & i have yet to hear you describe how what i’ve said is not the case.
Our feelings don’t come from nowhere Fraser, & we’re not liars.
Re the posts that came after, that’s my mistake, but so far it’s my only one.
So, ready to discuss the issue here if you are BlackStumps representative?
June 28th, 2006 at 4:12 pm
Come on Fraser,
Way i hear it you are an expert debater. Precisely what we appreciate on this thread.
June 28th, 2006 at 4:13 pm
This is… surreal. Our site has become a help desk. (I actually find this quite amusing).
June 28th, 2006 at 4:18 pm
Hey mate,
I’m afraid that I you and Lance have made a number of assertions about “The Black Stump Web Team”, which is me. The topic of conversation on this thread has been about censorship in the Stump forums. As the moderator of the forums, I’ve come here to at least challenge what you guys have been saying, because your interpretation seems to be the exact opposite of what I’ve been trying to do.
I’m afraid that I’m not here as a representative of the views of Black Stump - I’m definately not qualified for that! I’m just a geek who toils in his spare time! I’m more than happy to discuss issues of the website - including moderation policies on the forum, but if you want to go further, your best bet is to send an e-mail to the directors. I can honestly say that I’ve approved tonnes of posts that I disagree with - this was particularly true during a lot of the political discussion during the last Federal election. My philosophy is always post it - if you don’t like it then don’t worry, SOMEBODY will challenge it. Heck, even if you DO like it, somebody will no doubt challenge it…
As someone who works closely with Stump, though, I think that the conservative conspiracy that you smell is… um… more paranoia that reality. Well, as far as your comments about the discussion forum go, that’s definately been the case!
Have you tried posting yet? Nothing’s come through… I’m really keen to hear from you as to whether there’s a problem with the system.
June 28th, 2006 at 4:24 pm
OK, well i’m leaving work soon, i’ll try to do it before i leave.
I really would have liked to know what YOU thought though, but i accept you don’t want that responsibility as a rep of BS.
Could you possibly talk as an inndividual about your personal experience of Stump’s relationship to Gay Christian’s & how welcome you think they’d be?
June 28th, 2006 at 4:25 pm
Sorry Dan, you can certainly tell me if this should be taken elsewhere…
Hoping “amusing” is a good thing?