Those flingin flangin emerging churches
Greg the explorer sent me a link to this article which seems concerned to put several nails in the coffin of the emerging church:
In the UK, a nudist beach mission has just finished in Wales. Graceway, a church in Auckland, New Zealand, encouraged its members to ‘pray with your hand around a cup of coffee’ as a way of experiencing the Spirit ‘as warmth in your spirituality’. In Canada, a church called Worship Free House doesn’t offer sermons – but does install art.
According to prominent evangelical church leaders, all are symptomatic of a dangerous protest against biblical orthodoxy. While The Da Vinci Code puts the gospel on trial, the emerging church questions established biblical teaching throughout church history by offering what they says is a more authentic expression of Christianity.
“Some believe [emerging churches] to be the greatest challenge to mainstream churches since the birth of the Charismatic movement,” says Andy Peck, assistant editor of the UK’s Christianity+Renewal magazine in a recent article. “As some churches struggle to grow they will welcome emerging church thinking with open arms. ”Labels are useless to describe this alternative Christian movement, which has exploded out of the UK and the US and is now expanding into Australia.
Proponents like to talk in terms of ‘connecting’, ‘sharing’, ‘re-imagining’. They say the movement is not one as such but rather a ‘conversation’ within Protestant Christianity. They say labels are unhelpful to their cause. It is perhaps easier to define what the emergent movement is not. “This is not biblical theology,” says Canon Jim Ramsay, Director of Sydney Diocese’s Evangelism Ministries. “It’s a shaking of Christian orthodoxy.”
Punch ‘em in the goolies!! Singled out for criticism (implied or otherwise) are people like Cheryl, Steve (or Graceway, anyway), Darren and of course big bad bustling Brian McLaren. Interestingly, the only person on that list who has never commented here is Brian McLaren. He should get his act together. Or alternatively, he should stay away so that he doesn’t contaminate us with his non-orthodox Christianity.
Of course they are particularly worried about a Wales naturist beach mission, described here in an article published on April Fools’ Day, complete with founders Adam and Eve and a Sir Pent who invites Eve to pass some fruit to Adam. Clearly the site which published the article, emergingchurch.info is evil, as it has the temerity to list signposts as a link!
July 10th, 2006 at 6:00 pm
i can think of three uniting churches in sydney - one of which would name itself as emerging - where gay people are part of the congregation and participate fully in ministry roles. let me know if you’d like to know more about them, reve. i won’t list them here because they cop more than enough hatemail already.
none of them have candles or pictures of sunsets, that i know of, but they are sticklers for good coffee.
July 10th, 2006 at 6:52 pm
Churches come in many different shapes and sizes, but are all part of the body of Christ - is anyone suggesting that Hillsong is not?
As an outside observer, when I look at the impact Hillsong is having on society compared to the emerging church, I see real interest generated in the Christian faith by Hillsong and an attempt to engage with community - all I see with the emerging church are continual talk-fests, bitterness, and constant complaining about other churches - just look at this blog for examples.
I believe the essence of the problem is the difference in political power of the various Christian movements.
To Lionfish, Lance and others: why don’t you try other political means to get the change you want in the Australian church scene?
For example, establishing an alternative mega-church (one that is attractive to gays for example). Once your alternative church numbers in the tens of thousands of members/visitors then Brian Houston, Phil Baker, etc will listen to you.
July 10th, 2006 at 7:53 pm
“As an outside observer, when I look at the impact Hillsong is having on society compared to the emerging church, I see real interest generated in the Christian faith by Hillsong and an attempt to engage with community”
You meant ‘Hill$ong is having on CHURCH society’.
I can’t find one…not even one person…outside of the church (except maybe a couple of politicians with vested interests)..with anything positive to say about Hill$ong.
In fact just the obvious.
It’s relationship with the local community is poisonous…(it is locals who coined the phrase…’the till on the hill’…) it is now reviled by the local Aboriginal population……it is a laughing stock in the general community (I regularly sample the attitudes of ordinary Sydneysiders about Hill$ong..and it is ALWAYS a mocking response)..and it’s relationship with the media (FWIW) is rock-bottom…when the media generally has good relations with other churches and Christian organisations. And you obviously haven’t watched The Chaser lately. What planet are you on exactly Sanders?
And who was at Hill$ong Conference? It wasn’t people from the local community but fly-ins from interstate and overseas churches…..seeking inspiration from the darlings of the church worship scene.
And while I’m not a fan of the emergent church (which again..is just some traditional church people experimenting with caramel flavoured Tim Tams instead of the original ones..) in fairness….it took nearly 2 decades for Hill$ong to grow to what it is…whereas the emergent church is a very recent phenomenon…(let’s see where it is in 15 years..and then I think it’s fair to toss up comparisons),
Anyway…there will always be a size differential because the penty churches have a large pool of brain-dead ooh-look-at-all-the-pretty-lights Christians to draw on…..whereas there is only a much smaller pool of thinking Christians at any one time.
” I see real interest generated in the Christian faith by Hillsong ”
Where..and when ..and by whom…please?
July 10th, 2006 at 7:58 pm
The term I’m hearing and seeing most commonly associated with Hill$ong ‘in the community’ is ‘fuckers’.
July 10th, 2006 at 8:05 pm
And I listened to a bit of Sydney radio over the past week.
Lots of bemoaning about the traffic chaos around the Hill$ong Conference.
While inside they were being ‘excellent’….outside..the ‘community’ were being reminded every 15 minutes on the radio that the reason why they’re going to be half an hour late into work was because of the traffic gridlock around Acer Arena caused by Hill$ong Conference.
July 10th, 2006 at 10:01 pm
The term I’m hearing and seeing most commonly associated with Hill$ong ‘in the community’ is ‘$uckers’.
July 10th, 2006 at 11:28 pm
Thanks Cheryl,
Dan/Phil, ……..Cheryl has my permission to recieve my email address to send me the names of those gay-friendly Uniting Churches.
July 12th, 2006 at 8:23 am
reve… i found this website which lists many more than i knew of:
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~unitingnetwork/openandaffirming.html
these are Uniting churches that have publicly stated that they are open and affirming of gay people. the three i was thinking of were glebe cafe church, paddington and pitt street.
my email address is cheryl dot lawrie (at) vic dot uca dot org dot au
i can put you in touch with someone else in sydney from another community - i only have an email address for him, and don’t want to put that up here.
July 12th, 2006 at 9:20 am
Cheryl,
Thankyou very much,
There is one of those Uniting Churches that is within 10-15 mins drive for me & i’m going to check it out.
Again, thanks for your efforts!
July 12th, 2006 at 10:24 am
Sorry guys, missed this request for email passing….
July 13th, 2006 at 7:43 am
Sanders,
“For example, establishing an alternative mega-church (one that is attractive to gays for example). Once your alternative church numbers in the tens of thousands of members/visitors then Brian Houston, Phil Baker, etc will listen to you.”
This is the problem. Right here. They will not listen to you. You now get it!!! Just ask all those who were kicked off staff at Hillsong because they spoke up and questioned the dictatorship.
And in regards to impact on community. Ask anyone in Castle Hill what they do. Just don’t expect a warm response
July 13th, 2006 at 7:56 am
reve, they aren’t all ‘emerging’ by a long shot… the style and ‘quality’ of worship will be variable through the list.
the UC has just made some big decisions this week at its national assembly about gay people being in leadership roles… this is from a press release on the national website: “they decided that no congregation would be forced to accept a minister living in such a relationship if it could not do so in good conscience.
Equally, any congregation willing to accept such a minister would have its decision respected.”
the assembly made the same decision three years ago, and the conservative parts of the church were pushing for the church to definitively say that gay people could not be clergy. the assembly has again decided that it won’t do that.
more here… http://assembly2006.uca.org.au/news/news_items/_sexuality_a_way_forward,_but_no_consensus
(and don’t believe what’s written in your newspapers! the stories have rarely been accurate on this topic this week)
dan, anyone would think you had a life outside of signposts.
July 13th, 2006 at 10:39 am
Nahh, that seems unlikely.
July 31st, 2006 at 11:27 am
Some will remember as per post 109 on this thread that i emailed an Emerging Church to their main info email address a type of membership enquiry for Gay Christians.
I have waited weeks before identifying who they were to be fair & give them a chance to give a thoughtful reply as i felt a little burnt over being presumptuous over the Blackstump thing (trying to learn to give the benefit of the doubt in most situations).
As i have never recieved a reply i will now just mention that the organisation was “Small Boat, Big Sea” the Michael Frost/Baptist NSW initiative.
What i seem to be learning is that “if you identify yourself & let them see you coming, they will avoid you”.
I am yet to learn if the “technical difficulty” excuse is a standard avoidance technique (although i do not doubt Fraser, as he spent quality time here with us).
These don’t appear to be thoughtful christians that will confront issues unless they are placed on the spot & have nowhere to run, but i am ready & happy to be wrong (remember that i said that, as it’s true).
A passive invitation now goes out to anyone socially conscious that is involved in SBBS (perhaps Rev. Frost himself?) to discuss with us here on this thread whether his (or similar) Emerging Churches are any more welcoming of Gay Christians than regular Church structures.
July 31st, 2006 at 4:40 pm
As 5 hours have passed i’ts probably safe to asume that no-one from NSW Baptists or SBBS monitors this blog. If anyone knows any of them, you could direct them to this blog.
Or not….
I must admit i’m not expecting any satisfaction.
July 31st, 2006 at 5:02 pm
Hmmmm….I’m a bit of a fan of Maichael Frost and SBBS…can I put forward and excuse on his behalf? Perhaps he’s busy…I’d like to think that if he got the email he would repsond. I hope not hearing from them is not evasion on their part…but I can see that it appears that way.
July 31st, 2006 at 5:50 pm
Well, I am pretty sure Frosty is in Europe right now, and won’t be back for another week. Doesn’t sound like Mike or SBBS to ignore that email. I do know that we have a number of homosexuals involved in our network, some living celibately, some trying to, and I believe some that are happy the way they are. You would be welcome at my church, as long as you promised to stop flirting with me, my wife gets jealous.
rev
August 1st, 2006 at 6:46 am
Also Reve, that’s not an email that can be responded too quickly.
You could take the alternate route that one of my friends once took, which was to phone up a pastor, arrange a meeting, sit down with them and fire a barrage of questions!
I’d ditto Rev’s comments about those networks above.
But, I don’t think that “emerging church structures” are necessarily more welcoming of gays than “traditional church structures”. It’s not necessarily structures that are the problem, but rather attitudes - although I would say that a shift in attitudes is easier to act upon in an emerging church structure, since you don’t have the strictures of hierarchies crashing down on you if they don’t agree with what you’re doing.
August 1st, 2006 at 1:54 pm
It’s ok, guys….
I’m not even sure why i do this stuff anyway to be honest. Am i a shit-stirrer/ do i really want to attend?
Or am i just pissed off that certain sections of Christianity appear to want their own little cubby-house & not deal with anything outside it?
Does it just enrage me that someone still thinks they can keep me at a distance/shut me out?
I dunno.
I know that a man like Michael Frost would have the skills to appease me, anyway. He’s not who he is by never dealing with politics.
But Bec, the email i sent was over a month ago. How thoughtful & ponderous a reply would it need to be? But yes, phoning may be a better idea (am i making it too easy to decide tio ignore me?)
Greg, i don’t doubt he’s busy, yes.
Rev, tell you’re wife you’re body dosen’t interest me quite as much as you’re mind (hope that’s still as flattering).
I’m thirty-three years of age, i wonder at what stage wisdom is supposed to kick in & i’m supposed to realise that i should be focussing on things that will actually change & not things that won’t.
August 1st, 2006 at 2:08 pm
reve,
I am just turned forty, and I still believe we can leave this world a much better place.
Like I said I am pretty sure Mike has been in Europe with al for a big conference and may not have been able to respond until he returns. Please send me an email, and I will give you an email for the real leader of that church. I can guarantee he will respond in a day or two.
johnj at forge dot org dot au
rev
August 1st, 2006 at 2:27 pm
I’m 41 and I’m not sure wisddom of the kind you’re talking about has kicked in yet for me either…not sure I want that kind of wisdom. Somebody has to tilt at the windmills Reve…if not you - who?
August 1st, 2006 at 2:34 pm
I just spoke on the phone to the leader of Small Boat Big Sea, although the term leader might not really be the best, he is the administrator for sure. He apologized profusely, said that he never saw the email, and would have replied immediately. He apologizes for the mix up, and would love to catch up and you would be most welcome there. If you email me I will pass on his personal email. He really was quite contrite and unsure of how this could have happened.
rev
August 1st, 2006 at 2:41 pm
LOL. I was just going to reply to you, Reve, and say that failure to reply to emails is exactly why I and other people in my church have always advocated against any suggestion that pastoral care can somehow be done electronically (ie “click here and send us your prayers”! Thankfully nobody’s ever suggested that, but I *have* seen it on websites).
One of my friends once filled in a ‘care card’ at a very big church with plenty of paid staff…my friend wrote that they were feeling suicidal, etc etc…and never, ever got a response. NO RESPONSE. To a teenager who was suicidal (and it was clear that this was the case from the card).
And while I don’t know you, I’m not surprised by any gay bloke saying he feels shut out of the church. I sure know I do my own bit of shit-stirring (heh), so you’re definitely entitled to do yours. For myself, I know it’s also about believing that the church really could be better than this…
August 1st, 2006 at 2:43 pm
Sometimes i think it’s just as bad to be a single male trying to get churched as it is to be gay. I mean, let’s be honest here, if a church was wanting to recruit new members, they want families & couples or youth who already strong friendships within the church.
It’s like a mafia - if you don’t have an established link or you have’nt been introduced by someone who does - you are viewed with suspicion.
Gay or not, what Pastor of any church has interest in attracting a thirty-something single male with a mind of his own?
Sometimes i think i have to be rounded & look at it from a humanistic perspective - i have a relationship with God - but what would i offer THEM?
August 1st, 2006 at 2:47 pm
I will email you as soon as i finish work, Rev.
Thankyou for going out on a limb on my behalf.
Wow….ummm…. this will be interesting.
August 1st, 2006 at 3:00 pm
am working at home today, and had the time and the inclination to call one of my friends anyways. No worries.
rev
August 1st, 2006 at 3:04 pm
wouldn’t it be funny if I didn’t reply to you now
hahahahaha
my wife doesn’t think I am funny, but I sure do
ahahahaha
rev
August 1st, 2006 at 3:18 pm
Hey, I’m 51 and I believe more in windmill tilting now than I did when I was younger. Not sure whether that’s retrogression or some sort of record for being a late developer. …
You know, every church I’ve ever been in has a few single women in their 30s desperately waiting for an available male to appear. Which would make you very welcome till they found out you were gay! Of course a female (whatever her marital status) who has a mind of her own is considered even more dangerous in the church ..
August 1st, 2006 at 3:28 pm
Two emails sent to johnj@forge.org.au (just in case, paranoid, now ;o)
Thanks, again!
August 1st, 2006 at 3:49 pm
replied perhaps you did not notice all of the effort I took to avoid the spam robots by not printing my email in its exact form…
rev