Those flingin flangin emerging churches
Greg the explorer sent me a link to this article which seems concerned to put several nails in the coffin of the emerging church:
In the UK, a nudist beach mission has just finished in Wales. Graceway, a church in Auckland, New Zealand, encouraged its members to ‘pray with your hand around a cup of coffee’ as a way of experiencing the Spirit ‘as warmth in your spirituality’. In Canada, a church called Worship Free House doesn’t offer sermons – but does install art.
According to prominent evangelical church leaders, all are symptomatic of a dangerous protest against biblical orthodoxy. While The Da Vinci Code puts the gospel on trial, the emerging church questions established biblical teaching throughout church history by offering what they says is a more authentic expression of Christianity.
“Some believe [emerging churches] to be the greatest challenge to mainstream churches since the birth of the Charismatic movement,” says Andy Peck, assistant editor of the UK’s Christianity+Renewal magazine in a recent article. “As some churches struggle to grow they will welcome emerging church thinking with open arms. ”Labels are useless to describe this alternative Christian movement, which has exploded out of the UK and the US and is now expanding into Australia.
Proponents like to talk in terms of ‘connecting’, ‘sharing’, ‘re-imagining’. They say the movement is not one as such but rather a ‘conversation’ within Protestant Christianity. They say labels are unhelpful to their cause. It is perhaps easier to define what the emergent movement is not. “This is not biblical theology,” says Canon Jim Ramsay, Director of Sydney Diocese’s Evangelism Ministries. “It’s a shaking of Christian orthodoxy.”
Punch ‘em in the goolies!! Singled out for criticism (implied or otherwise) are people like Cheryl, Steve (or Graceway, anyway), Darren and of course big bad bustling Brian McLaren. Interestingly, the only person on that list who has never commented here is Brian McLaren. He should get his act together. Or alternatively, he should stay away so that he doesn’t contaminate us with his non-orthodox Christianity.
Of course they are particularly worried about a Wales naturist beach mission, described here in an article published on April Fools’ Day, complete with founders Adam and Eve and a Sir Pent who invites Eve to pass some fruit to Adam. Clearly the site which published the article, emergingchurch.info is evil, as it has the temerity to list signposts as a link!
August 4th, 2006 at 1:32 pm
I was over at Small Ritual http://www.btinternet.com/~smallritual/section4/networktheory.html
I recommend a trip over there for some really cool freely downloadable resources. In a quicktime movie where Steve Collins talks about Network Theory he has this to say:
I thought the last line in the section called the rule of 150 aplied to saome large networks we are all aware of.
August 4th, 2006 at 2:12 pm
Greg, I’m a monk, but not from that monastry. However, my monkness is well and truly documented, and I’m really, you know, a monk…
Like, we’ve got our OWN door, with it’s OWN sound and stuff, and, like, I know what THAT is cos I’m the monkest of monks ‘n stuff…
but…
I was kinda wondering… you know, with that door you were talking about, well - it sounds kinda like our door, but a bit different, and I figure that I probably should know what that sound is too, cos I’m like a monkey and stuff and I’m meant to know stuff and like…
So…
What’s (um) behind the (cough) door?
Greg?
August 4th, 2006 at 2:21 pm
Toddy, the monkest monk that ever monked on a monkday morning…listen careflully as I am at liberty to reveal this once only…the sound that you seek is the sound of….
*as greg begins to reveal the nature and source of the sound to Toddy, a truck rumbles by blasting it’s air horn and obliterating any sound coming from anywhere else*
…and so you see it is imperative that only monks of the highest monk levels are permitted to konw the secret of this all konwing and all giving sound.
Bless you Toddy
August 4th, 2006 at 3:14 pm
I actually heard over (nay, through) the sound of the airhorn, because I atuned my hearing specifically to the frequency of truth.
Thankyou Greg, oh knowledgable Emperor of Wisdom.
By the way, LOVE what you’re wearing, Emperor!
Signed
Monkey Boy
August 4th, 2006 at 3:41 pm
doesn’t donating all our life savings to the monastery count?
August 4th, 2006 at 3:57 pm
… well, it counts to the monks!
August 8th, 2006 at 4:40 pm
Gues what?
August 8th, 2006 at 4:43 pm
You’ll never guess, so i’ll tell you
Signposts is apparently one fo the 50 mist infuentiual emergent church blogs and is listed here http://emergingchurch.bryanmurley.com/?p=29 by a guy who is doing some emergent research…Did you guys know?
August 9th, 2006 at 11:25 am
Yeah, the author is actually one of our first “blogging buddies”. About the time we started this site, he was running a site called “Arguing with Signposts” and we dropped him a line to see whether it was anything personal. And we have had a strange connection ever since. He is doing some really interesting study about the communication of the emerging church in the online community.
August 9th, 2006 at 11:48 am
cool. Has anyone written anything telling the stories of Australian Emergeing communities to your knowledge?
August 9th, 2006 at 11:55 am
I believe Alan Hirsch’s new book does that a bit, but not sure.
I am planning on writing a book about our experience, and how we very slowly and clumsily stumbled our way into our present idealogies and practices. It will go from becoming a Christian in a radical pentecostal church, to church planting with punks and artists, alternative worship, cell church, and up to our current unstable place.
But since I spent most of my time in Southern Cal, Australian emerging churches will only show up as an inspiration to me.
rev
August 9th, 2006 at 12:57 pm
Hey all,
Half serious question…….
If you can’t play an instrument, solo-sing, dance, paint, cook, write & recite poetry & you’re too self-conscious to participate in drama skits…. would you still have a place in an emerging church or would you be a seen as the “church cat”?
Seems to be a focus on arty bohemians (Small Boat, Cafe Church). Just wondering what others thoughts are?
August 9th, 2006 at 1:02 pm
you’d have a place in our community…no arty bohemians to be found. I think the people pushing the emergent agenda can be seen to be the arty bohemian type, but I think that is a reflection of the kind of people who are always pushing the boundaries back a bit - eg hippies, punks, mormons…ok just joking about the punks.
I saw this discussion on another blog and I can’t think where - te upshot was that although te public or cyber face of emerging thinking apppears arty and bohemian the reality will be that the people who come and fill te emerging churches or communities will not need to be like that.
August 9th, 2006 at 1:03 pm
LOL.
Reve, I’d say that’s been a problem but is increasingly less so.
August 9th, 2006 at 1:12 pm
In my churches it is actually living in community, and taking part in life together that defined membership. I don’t think you really understand the whole concept of emerging church bro. The idea is that everyone participates, and we are broadening the definitions of what is and isn’t considered “worship, and church life”
In my church we eat breakfast together (I am sure you can cook and eat), and then we discuss the bible, pray, meditate or someone might lead us in a teaching or scripture meditation.
rev
August 9th, 2006 at 1:37 pm
Thankyou guys,
Truth is, i probably undersell myself, i can do basic cooking, i draw cartoons, write, meditate regularly, can act, & I’m a passionate prayer, intercessor & dispenser of prophecy. I’m also an experienced Counsellor.
I think I’m just really struggling with self-esteem at the moment. When i’m called upon to deliver an inventory of my marketable skills i can do that eloquently. But for some reason i don’t “feel” like anybody else would see usefulness or worthiness in me. Maybe it’s comes down to the fact that i don’t feel very likeable.
This must sound like self-pitying drivel, i’m sure. But honestly, every time Sunday comes around a i feel the void of community lost & then when i actually resolve to go & visit a church i stop & go “yeah, but what do i have to offer/add to this congregation? What if they think i’m a blank/cypher/vacuum”?
Does anyone else ever feel like this, or am i Robinson Crusoe on this?
August 9th, 2006 at 1:57 pm
Well I often feel like a complete failure and a sham, so maybe not the same thing, but I understand your feelings.
The truth is that you have yourself to offer, in all your frailty and weakness, it is the only real gift you have, and its the only gift of real value. It is also the hardest thing to offer. The most awesome thing is when you can give it over, and you are loved and accepted warts and all, you feel somehow more you than you ever felt before. The danger is that too often we are let down. Having experienced both I can tell you from my experience, that as bad as the pain of rejection is, I will risk it again for the blessings of true community.
rev
August 9th, 2006 at 2:08 pm
You have understood me very well Rev. straight off the bat.
Yes, secretly suspecting i’m a sham & fearing rejection (particularly being made a fool of) is a demon that clings to my back contantly whispering negative embellishments into my ear.
So what is your attitude / what do you tell yourself when you fel you’ve been rejected on the occasions when this happens?
Sometimes i imagine how socially powerful i could be if i did not care what other people thought of me. What a fantasy & impracticality.
Or is it?
August 9th, 2006 at 2:29 pm
Well I usually get angry, and then I try to rationalize why it doesn’t matter, and in the end I just feel like shit. Like I said its painful. But there are those people in my life, that know me completely, and they love me. And it is usually in these moments that when I take comfort and solace in those relationships.
Shouldn’t the church be this kind of place? With these kind of people and relationships? I guess my part is to live that out to the best of my ability.
rev
August 9th, 2006 at 2:46 pm
Although you’ve asked rev and not me (despite his self proclomation as a sham and failure…so why go to him I do not konw!
) I think it is impractical at seom level to not worry about what others think…thats’ what keeps us from doing things that will isolate us from our groups (whoever and whatever they are).
It helps at times to consider the things that others ahve recognised as valuable in you. I often feel like I don’t really measure up in comparison to others…that’s why I love it here…nobody cares if you say something that’s dumb arsed or ask a questoin that you mighht6 think is totally stupid and off subject…and that is in itse;lf the essence of what makes any commubnity worth belonging to - emergent, insititutional, conservative or whatever.
August 9th, 2006 at 3:27 pm
Rev, I couldn’t agree more - that’s exactly what the church should be like (but often isn’t).
Reve - I can suffer from chronic insecurity at times (to the point of inducing panic attacks). The things that help me are seeking solace in relationships like the Rev does. I’m also getting better at taking the p*** out of myself - at standing back and going “oh my goodness Bec, you are SUCH a drama queen…that one little stuff up is sooo insignificant in the whole scheme of things”. And like Greg, I consider what others find valuable in me. I have got better at pulling myself up and going “Ok, let’s look at the facts. I am not a complete loser, and I know this because of x, y and z…”
Reve, we haven’t met, but I sure enjoy reading your posts, and I like what I know of you through them.
August 9th, 2006 at 3:42 pm
Thanks Bec, that’s affirming.
And likewise, too.
Yes i do take myself too seriously.
Very hard sometimes wondering if God is telling me to stop looking for f2f christian community, or whether it’s just my insecurity stopping me. Will need to really ask God in prayer, maybe fast for an answer.
August 9th, 2006 at 3:55 pm
Well if you ever want to know which of those I think is closer to the truth you just have to ask.
rev
August 9th, 2006 at 4:25 pm
Rev, are you (or Bec or Greg) going to Blackstump next month? They’ve got Tim Costello speaking & Mike Frost amongst others.
August 9th, 2006 at 4:31 pm
Not me, too busy here in Melbourne. I would like to go some day. The UNOH Surrender conference is probably more my style however.
rev
August 9th, 2006 at 5:02 pm
Doesn’t sound like something God would say…the question might rather be what kind of F2F community you need to be a part of!
One of the things I have noticed in life is that our deepest yearnings are placed there by God…not the superficial yearnings that are indicative of the deeper yearnings…sometimes God is smacking us about the head with our own heart felt desires.
Regarding Blackstump…no I won’t be there. I am however going to go te the 3rd Forge intensive in Sydney later in november
August 9th, 2006 at 5:27 pm
Reve I’m not going. There will be quite a few people from Urban Seed going however…say hi to them and tell them you know the Rev and I!
And I agree with Greg’s comments above. I think all of us need f2f community - we were created as social beings. The question is more what sort of community you need to look for and be a part of, and where you might find it.
I’m not sure what you’re looking for, but one of my friends has always said “if you ever find the perfect church, don’t join it, because you’ll screw it up.”
You might also want to consider just trying something for a time. A lot of the stuff I’m involved with occurs beneath the radar…you won’t find it on a website or in the phone book, but will rather stumble across it because of social networks.
August 9th, 2006 at 5:34 pm
Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of God.
There’s something so disarming and likeable about people who confess (in an appropriate forum or relationship) “Gosh I feel like an idiot sometimes, and I doubt what I have to give, and it holds me back from reaching out to others, and I panic sometimes” etc. etc.
Bec and Reve, you both write the most wonderfully profound things… are transparently intelligent, gifted and “in touch” people who love God. So I find your confessionals moving.
It seems to me it breeds true community when we start confessing we feel “Adam and Eve-like”… naked and vulnerable and afraid… and paradoxically, we feel less alone and less vulnerable when we do.
It gives permission for others to say “gosh, I feel like that too”.
Looking back on it… I think I’ve been through a process of finding safe people to be a bit vulnerable with… found I actually was still accepted… felt I could be a bit more vulnerable… found that actually gives permission for others to be a bit more vulnerable. etc. etc. on a community building cycle. Over time (bonus) I’ve actually started to care less and less what others think of me… except for my nearests and dearests.
A slow process but possible.
I’ve also had to do at times what Bec demonstrates at 201… challenge my “self talk” and actively try to think about myself and others differently. This is hard to do when feeling down, even though it’s the time when I most need to!
August 9th, 2006 at 11:08 pm
Does the emerging church and Forge..threaten to burn people out…in the same way that charismatic churches do?
http://anxietyandmood.blogspot.com/2006/08/guilt.html
“Something about the Starving Jesus podcast, especially the episode with Tony Campolo, makes me feel angry. I don’t know what it is exactly. Maybe it’s because they’re presenting the same old song-and-dance that I’ve heard from religious motivational speakers since my youth, but they’re claiming that it’s something new.
Tony Campolo is a compelling speaker, and he almost did it to me again.
But I’ve tried that methodology. I devoted six months of my youth to overseas missions, I’ve gone on countless short-term mission trips, I’ve devoted my career to medicine to help the poor and downtrodden, I’ve attended church all my life and given of my income freely and happily since the day I made my first dollar.
Where has it gotten me? I’m bitter, angry, and totally disenchanted with the whole thing. I knew things were off when It used to make me feel uncomfortable to speak of my “life-changing” experiences to a congregation to re-assure them that their sponsorship went to a good cause. You know they were just wanting to hear a number. How many converts? I don’t even belong to a church anymore because of the hollow emptiness I feel whenever I darken the doors. Worst of all, I’m now a slave to the very patients I used to want to serve because they’re the ones who will be paying off my student debt for the next 15 years.
I did everything right. I followed the “love Jesus” method precisely. I threw caution to the wind. I let others guilt me into the martyr position only to find myself trapped not in Haiti or Belarus, but suburban Detroit, tied here by the realities of debt, responsibility and plenty of needy people right in my own backyard.
(Let me clarify at this point that I don’t resent the patients, nor do I regret any of my mission experiences. I even like my job–most days. But I resent being convinced by these manipulative preachers that a life of devotion leads to freedom and perpetual warm fuzzies. It doesn’t. I resent the fact that some person is going to give his $32 to Compassion International instead of buying his son his first bike for Christmas. I’m sorry that we live in an affluent society, but that doesn’t mean we ignore the needs of those nearest us just because poor people exist. Some rich CEO is thinking of killing himself tonight because his company lost $20 mil, and they want me to go where? What would our wealthy society do if all of the sudden all our software engineers suddenly got religion and went to Africa?)
Get off the pews, they say? I’ve been off the pews all my life and I don’t feel any more meaning or purpose, or closer to God because of it. They imply that if one just follows their 12 step plan to the door of Christ’s heart we’ll be reserving our seat of importance in His kingdom, like God will personally send us His autograph and certificate of completion of a job well done. That’s just not true.
Get off the pews, they say? Get out of the pulpit. Get off my back. I’ve had enough of people who see recruitment for the cause by any coersive means necessary as a ministry. It’s deceitful and in my opinion demonstrates a lack of faith in God’s ability to call people to action in His own, and their own time. Why would Tony Campolo bluntly try and make me feel as if I don’t love Jesus, while I sit here at 36, in my dead-end job, trying to pay off the bills of a reckless pursuit of what I thought was Christ’s favor at the time, but was mostly the result of irresponsible and manipulative preaching? If anyone is really going to do something, great. Go do it, then shut-up about it! Those young people that are listening to the Starving Jesus podcast can’t hear God for all the yammering.”
Where do Forge and the emerging church draw the line between exhorting people to ministry beyond themselves…and making that a series of hoops that people must keep jumping through in order to earn salvation?
Is Tony Campolo being just as manipulative as Brian Houston or Phil Baker or Phil Pringle?
How far can you push people..no matter how well-intentioned you are?
August 9th, 2006 at 11:31 pm
Lance that’s the thing. I am closer to it, than I have ever been in my life. I no longer feel compelled to ‘tithe’ or ‘guilty’ when i don’t.
My secualr work is where God has called me. It comes before “church service”. I am responsible for providing for my family. I give to causes where I feel led. Amounts that I decide. Help out as I feel led. No burn out.
These motivational guys do’nt do it for me any more. I take my spiritual examples from those who don’t ever tell me to go do it (from a jest set lifestyle) but from the example of those who are ‘doing it’ themselves, joyfully, as a matter of calling.
These guys are like the Britsh Generals who sat in tents and drank tea during WWII whilst they sent the soldiers out to fight. No idea. No self sacrifice.
Who motivates me now? An uncharismatic corner Chrcuh Pastor, the three Nuns who teach and work with the refugee’s, who have ministries helping out the pooest of the poor.
Walk in Grace. Free.