Those flingin flangin emerging churches
Greg the explorer sent me a link to this article which seems concerned to put several nails in the coffin of the emerging church:
In the UK, a nudist beach mission has just finished in Wales. Graceway, a church in Auckland, New Zealand, encouraged its members to ‘pray with your hand around a cup of coffee’ as a way of experiencing the Spirit ‘as warmth in your spirituality’. In Canada, a church called Worship Free House doesn’t offer sermons – but does install art.
According to prominent evangelical church leaders, all are symptomatic of a dangerous protest against biblical orthodoxy. While The Da Vinci Code puts the gospel on trial, the emerging church questions established biblical teaching throughout church history by offering what they says is a more authentic expression of Christianity.
“Some believe [emerging churches] to be the greatest challenge to mainstream churches since the birth of the Charismatic movement,” says Andy Peck, assistant editor of the UK’s Christianity+Renewal magazine in a recent article. “As some churches struggle to grow they will welcome emerging church thinking with open arms. ”Labels are useless to describe this alternative Christian movement, which has exploded out of the UK and the US and is now expanding into Australia.
Proponents like to talk in terms of ‘connecting’, ‘sharing’, ‘re-imagining’. They say the movement is not one as such but rather a ‘conversation’ within Protestant Christianity. They say labels are unhelpful to their cause. It is perhaps easier to define what the emergent movement is not. “This is not biblical theology,” says Canon Jim Ramsay, Director of Sydney Diocese’s Evangelism Ministries. “It’s a shaking of Christian orthodoxy.”
Punch ‘em in the goolies!! Singled out for criticism (implied or otherwise) are people like Cheryl, Steve (or Graceway, anyway), Darren and of course big bad bustling Brian McLaren. Interestingly, the only person on that list who has never commented here is Brian McLaren. He should get his act together. Or alternatively, he should stay away so that he doesn’t contaminate us with his non-orthodox Christianity.
Of course they are particularly worried about a Wales naturist beach mission, described here in an article published on April Fools’ Day, complete with founders Adam and Eve and a Sir Pent who invites Eve to pass some fruit to Adam. Clearly the site which published the article, emergingchurch.info is evil, as it has the temerity to list signposts as a link!
August 10th, 2006 at 12:12 am
I like the British generals analogy…………with Mark Pomery as Baldrick.
August 10th, 2006 at 7:43 am
So are you guys saying that when I preach I should not be motivational?
I have found that the more I give up, the more I understand Jesus. Not warm fuzzies, but understanding. I am saved, nothing can seperate me from the love of Jesus. I serve and sacrifice because that is what he did, and I am a follower of Him. If anyone tries to serve God in order to appease God, and get warm fuzzies, they will wind up in bondage. Legalism never works. But if you serve God so that you may follow Christ, you will have your desire.
I have found much suffering in my walk with Jesus. I have felt like I couldn’t go on. I have cried many tears, feeling all alone, feeling like a failure, feeling like I have completely missed it. All along there is the allure of the easy way. I am a good speaker, I could get a good band together, and build a secure church that would make my life secure. But I am not looking for personal fulfilment, or peace, or adulation, I am looking to walk the path that the guy I call my Lord and Saviour walked.
Is it wrong to manipulate people? Yes it is. Is it wrong to inspire people? No its not. Whats the difference? Well I think it has to do with two things:
Are you causing them to have unreasonable expectations of what they will find?
Are you basing their salvation or acceptance on their obedience to your message?
And just so you know, Tony Campolo is in no way an emerging church guy.
rev
August 10th, 2006 at 8:06 am
That’s an interesting clarification Rev… I felt like the nub of the disillusionment expressed in 209 was an expecation of overwhelming joy and fulfilment in this life if all the right sacrifices were made.
Paradoxically, I do think there is joy to be found in closeness with Jesus both in this life and the next, and in pursuing our vocation (what he has uniquely wired us for and called us to do… not what others have manipulated us to do). But this not about “if I make enough sacrifices and do all the right stuff then I’ll be happy and blessed”. This is just another legalism.
I think the gentle disciplines of Ignatian meditation (”what was my consolation and desololation today? how can I do more of that which gives me life, and less of that which drains life from me in the future?”) and spiritual direction help us to move closer to Christ and what He calls us to do. Some are called to work with the poor, and some are not… all are called to give freely and from the heart.
August 10th, 2006 at 9:32 am
I konw you meant jet set - but i thought jest set was more apropriate becuase they’ve got to be kidding!
I agree with Janet - the core isssue for the guy in Lance’s post is that he didn;t get what he was looking for…poor diddums…I want’ my happiness…
I want to feel good about what I do…wake up and smell the coffee - it’s just more of the give more money and you’ll get more stuff - in this case it’s volunteer more of your time for a worthy cause and God will bless you and you will be happy and fulfilled - crap.
Sorry no sympathy for the poor doctor paying off his student debt and helping the poor people in Dtroit rather than some glamorous destination like Haiti or Ethipia - fuck him! He pisses me off!
August 10th, 2006 at 9:35 am
damn html…it should know what I’m trying to do - Dan or Phil can you fix it for me…I need to feel good and if my html is all wrong I can’t
August 10th, 2006 at 9:39 am
I can really relate to the guy in #209
I too volunteered my early twenties away. All my psychic & emotional energy was focussed on it. It was my whole life. I really believed that if i was engaged in the work of God as a soldier in a spiritual war that i would be “looked after”. No one tells you that burn out-depression doesn’t care whether you’re christian or secular. Or how quickly the warmth between you & you’re fellow troops turns cold the moment you can’t be counted on not to question anything.
Or how when you experience 10 months of panic attacks followed by 6 months of reactive depression that was so bad you couldn’t work (as a result of the breakdown of your relationship with your fellow missionaries), that it won’t be the christians that come to your side but the same “plain good” secular familiars that were always there.
& then i hear The Rev telling me that I’ve gotta have enough courage to clutch my nose & dive into Christian Community again, on the offhand chance that it will be different this time, & i know he’s right, the void on the inside of me tells me he’s right.
But you know when your head says “go” but the heart says “don’t be a fool, you KNOW how this ends”……………
August 10th, 2006 at 9:50 am
Are you questioning stuff Reve? I sure hope not, cause if you are…well, just don’t ok
August 10th, 2006 at 10:04 am
I cannot & will not deny God or The Holy Spirit. I doubt humans completely, i doubt Christian community & from experience, feel that Christian community politics is more dangerous than secular politics. I even feel that spiritual abuse is worse than other types of abuse because it lies in a grey area so open to interpertation & so difficult to outright prove to everyone’s satisfaction.
Oh Father, if only just you & i were good enough, i feel safe then, why do you see it as necessary for me to keep trying with other people? Why do you place it on my heart not to give up on others while also letting me know how much pain is there?
August 10th, 2006 at 10:47 am
Reve, I wish I knew what to say to you, but the partial answers I’ve found for myself in this struggle aren’t ones that can be neatly packaged and handed out (I wish they could, I so relate to that kind of pain. I’ve never done the big volunteer thing, because I was married at 22, supporting my husband through uni by working a job I hated. then we had kids, his further study etc .. but the hunger for community, for Jesus-relationships with other people, for experiencing a quality of grace from someone who knew the real me kept me hungry and searching. At last it led me to a house church where the people boasted of the intimate quality of their relationships, but when i admitted how much that meant to me I was told I was being selfish for wanting to be loved. They told me that they “loved” me in Christ, but there were long lists of things I needed to change about myself before anyone could actually like me. I still have no idea how many of those things were actually true about me .. I was struggling with multiple abuse issues in my life at the time and was very much in an “I have to get myself fixed” frame of mind, so i was pretty vulnerable to most of their suggestions, but there were some things I just couldn’t agree with, and I still have horror memories of late night sessions, 4 of them agains 1 of me, where they tried to “persuade” me into their point of view. And because I believed that the church represented God, i believed that he rejected me as well. Typical of the kind of thing they said about me was that i was very “gifted” (no one defined in what!!) but the church couldn’t use me because I was too deeply flawed, and one of my deepest flaws was that I questioned God’s love for me and admitted (under questioning) that I didn’t feel very loved when people kept criticising me!
It’s over 7 years since I left, and the healing is still happening. I now know that God loves me and that, however flawed I might be, i can still be a channel of His grace simply because I am in Him. There are a couple of friends that are real grace-givers to my life, and who, amazingly, actually seem to want MY friendship. I am still cautious in relationships, because of my past history of falling for abusive people, but one of the things that’s convinced me that real change has happened is that those patterns seem to be finally broken. It has taken me 50 years (slow learner) but I finally have a monster radar that blips internally when someone is being manipulative, dishonest etc. Or maybe I’ve finally begun to believe more in my own heart than in what other people with their own agendas tell me.
Reve, I can’t see that anything I’ve said is even relevant to your pain, except that I can personally say to you that my experience says that God is still there with us as we struggle with all the junk and that dipping back into relationships again can be a little like the story of the disciples who’d been out there fishing all night and caught nothing. Not only do we keep coming up empty, but we’re getting snagged and snarled and broken in the process, and we know a painful session of net-mending is in order. And then Jesus tells us to dip in one more time, and everything inside us shrieks out that this is wasted effort. But, hey, this is Jesus, so, in spite of ourselves we say, “nevertheless at your word” and do it, with every muscle screaming out in protest.
And this time the result is very different ..
August 10th, 2006 at 11:05 am
It’s relevant alright, BP - almost all of it.
My problem is that my “Monster Radar” goes off so often now there is little left afterwards, y’know?
I was affected by your tale of group psychological bullying. Shame heaped upon them. Trying to wear you down in the wee hours of the night. How dare they.
“nevertheless at your word” and do it, with every muscle screaming out in protest”
Wow. Yep, know what that’s like.
God wouldn’t allow me to be made a fool of over & over again would he? He’s not a cruel God, so………
I really want to trust what i feel he’s telling me.
August 10th, 2006 at 11:08 am
Thanks for your honesty Reve and Blestpickle. I appreciated what you said Blestpickle - “maybe I’ve finally begun to believe more in my own heart than in what other people with their own agendas tell me”.
Obviously finding genuine community that loves, accepts and spurs us on in our walk with God is something to be treasured. Unfortunately it is rare. All we can do is follow our hearts and allow God to guide us as to the timing to reconnect into community and discernment as to the appropriate community. Perhaps a much more fluid and liquid form of Godly community may be the way of the future rather than the organised and instituitionalized form….
August 10th, 2006 at 4:23 pm
Wow. So called “christians” have got a lot to answer for. I’ve experienced panic attacks this year for the first time and… gosh, it’s paralysing. Awful.
I’ve found proper “spiritual direction” like a warm bath… a safe and comforting place… and it’s with only one person who (if they have gone through the legitimate spiritual direction training process) will never tell you what to do or manipulate you… only sit with you and help you to discern what the Spirit is saying, and what Christ is inviting you toward.
Might that be a safe place to start? Are there Christian spirituality centres available where you might seek spiritual direction?
Just a thought.
August 10th, 2006 at 4:33 pm
By the way Greg (214)… you have to lay some blame on those who falsely taught that sacrifices for Jesus would lead to endless joy in this life! OK… maybe he should have read the gospels for himself… but I guess you can end up reading even Jesus’ blunt words about suffering and persecution and taking up your cross daily through the “grid” of false teaching given by those with apparent authority.
August 10th, 2006 at 10:34 pm
I have listened to Tony Campolo for years, I can say I have never heard him say that if you sacrifice your life would be endless joy, infact he has said that there is joy, and there is a lot of pain. I can see him being called manipulative, as he is amazingly persuasive, but I cannot accept that accusation that he promises everlasting joy and happiness.
Bestpickle and reve,
man I wish I could apologize for the suffering you two have had to endure, and for whatever it is worth as a man in ministery I sincerely apologize for my fellow ministers and the church. Thank you for your honesty.
and reve, bro, I didn’t mean to be insensitive, I have suffered tremendously at the hands of my brothers and sisters as well. I have just learned that I need them anyways, I hope you find the community that can give you love acceptance and peace.
rev
August 10th, 2006 at 10:58 pm
Guys,
Something that has been on my heart of late is that scripture where Jesus tells us to “call noone else Father - except (Abba Father Daddy) God”.
This is an issue. I used to think it referred to Catholicism, and calling priests “father”.
I now think Jesus was saying - don’t put yourselves under any Guru/Pastor/etc (in such away as though you see THEM as having all the answers …
We are to relate directly to God, understand what he says and wants from us …. don’t crave that ‘Father’ figure in any man.
August 11th, 2006 at 5:28 am
Lionfish - It is the role of a pastor or teacher to lead people into a relationship with God. Not to be the intermeadiary. That would make them a priest. As the Preists role in the OT was to offer sacrifices. So much of what we see in the church is the restoration of a priesthood and the regard for the “temple”. A wedding not performed by a catholic priest in a catholic church is not recognized by them as a wedding, so is my understanding.
“in such away as though you see THEM as having all the answers ” - So many pastors, because they have not seen that the role of a pastor is not the same as a priest, have promoted themselves as the go between, between God and man. But their is only one, Jesus. The meadiator of a better covenant. Therefore the church’s buildings are not holy places dedicated to God, because buildings aren’t churches. The believer is the temple, who is holy and dedicated to the glory of God.
Isn’t the purpose of the pastor/teacher apostle, prophet, evangelist to equip the church (believers) for the work of the ministry. A missionary freind of mine has wonderful meetings in the US and Canada, but he says the best places he experiences God is in the barn lofts in China. When He tore the veil, he let the Spirit out of the confines of a temple - and we know he is not there just hanging out in some building until we accumulate on Sunday morning.
We do have fathers, though the bible says we have 10,000 instructors in Christ, we have not many fathers. (NOT ANY FATHERS) Most people do not have a father-type that points to Christ, they have a father type that points to the father type.
paul said be followers of me, even as i am of Christ. So I guess when the leader is not following Christ - we are free to fire him.
August 11th, 2006 at 9:37 am
Rev said in #224 :
“and reve, bro, I didn’t mean to be insensitive, I have suffered tremendously at the hands of my brothers and sisters as well. I have just learned that I need them anyways, I hope you find the community that can give you love acceptance and peace”
Thanks Rev, & you weren’t being too insensitive & i still think you’re right. It dosen’t do to be be too sympathetic to my situation else i will give myself the easy out & validate my not trying again. The most important thing i need fom you guys is to know you’ve been there too, & that i’m not paranoid & melodramatic. And i might need you guys to give a running commentary to as i morph back in to the fold.
But one thing you said i felt was concrete & real & full of integrity, you said
“I have suffered tremendously at the hands of my brothers and sisters as well. I have just learned that I need them anyways”
Wow. That definitive statement really says it all. That’s the ultimate upshot.
Thankyou.
August 11th, 2006 at 9:48 am
Maybe if i can justv adjust my expectations & say to myself in real terms:
I know that wherever i go there will be politics & power abuse & hypocrisy & victimisation, but…….i have to say that being away from Christian Community is just a different type of misery.
Part of growing up is getting philosophical & taking the good with the bad. Maybe i need to focus on maturity & reality instead of idealism.
August 11th, 2006 at 10:40 am
I see that pain and abuse either turns people away from God or it drives us deeper into his arms. There are no easy answers and any venture you make back into community Reve will be frought with doubt, anxiety and even suspicion. It will take time to develop trust with people and I think it would be difficult if not impossible for you to rush straight in…I think that what you are doing now in this safe environment where you can work through your experiences and feelings and get feedback from others who have experieces similar to yours, is the best thig you can be doing.
All of our suffering and pain is relative - two people can experiecne the same thing and feel completely differently about it - due entirely to their own past experiences and baggage. That doesn’t mean that one way is the right way to feel - it just is what it is.
Reve you have so much to offer a community of Jesus followers and I do belive that God is taking you through the process of being ready and I also believe that somewhere God is taking a community of believers; Jesus followers (as opposed to Christians who may or may not actually be following Jesus), through the process of being ready to embrace and accept you as part of a community.
(I was going to say “as part of their community” - but I realised that as soon as a new member joins a community it is no longer the same community - it is no longer their community; it traight away becomes a new community…different to what it was - so it is no longer their community but a new shared way of being together.)
August 11th, 2006 at 10:41 am
When i asked Phil and Dan to fix my HTML - something has gone wrong and now we are all posting in blockquote!!!
August 11th, 2006 at 11:14 am
Reve, I would echo Greg’s sentiments and say you have so much to offer a community…and I’m sure that you could gain so much too. Have you checked out any of the places people on Signposts have recommended?
I think in your post at #228 you’re spot on. That’s basically what my friend is saying when she says “you ever find the perfect church, don’t join it, because you’ll screw it up.”
Christ never promised us that we’d be perfect. We’re flawed, broken, screwed up human beings. I’m sure I’ve hurt people as much as I’ve been hurt. I think we all acknowledge that communities will be flawed, for the individuals within them will be flawed - the question is, where does one draw the line? At what point does an individual cross the line from being flawed to dangerously manipulative/abusive? At what point does a community cross the line from being flawed to an abusive institution?
August 11th, 2006 at 1:45 pm
I’ll go one step further than that, i actually think that there is MORE of a chance you will encounter psychological abuse, imperfections & flaws amongst Christians than seculars, literally it is to be excpected.
I’ll qualify that : -
The pressure to be clean-living, above reproach, faith-filled, moral, ethical, loving etc, etc is not something seculars deal with anywhere near as much. Because that pressure is there to appear this way before Christian peers & leaders, natural human flaws are repressed & screened off where they are not brought out into the light where they can be clearly & honestly examined.
This however does not mean these flaws are absent, just unconscious or sub-conscious which then makes them dangerous because there is no awareness. This is why there is so much fear & defensiveness when a leader is questioned, it’s like a deep, secret repressed powderkeg waiting to go off & someone dares to come up & press a button or light a fuse.
The best way for me to relate is when i wasn’t psychologically ready to consciously come out as Gay but i had friends that were prompting me in that direction before i was anywhere near ready to even come out to myself & grieve for my false ego & image.
So, you see another reason why a burnt person might be reticent to return to Christian Community? : - With the pressure of percieved Christian values & behaviours, how can i trust people who are plugged into a christian community to be honest & transparent with themselves? Especially if they’re leaders! There’s too much for them to lose to have their external image truly & accurately reflect their real insides & motivations!
And in that dark space between Id & Superego lies all the danger. And very few have a stronger Superego than the fellowshipping Christian.
Do ppl agree / disagree?
August 11th, 2006 at 3:27 pm
I donp;t agree there is more of a chance…I think there are cetain ways of being a Christian that you would expect more spiritual and psychological abuse stemming from…but certainly not Christianity as a whole.
August 11th, 2006 at 5:00 pm
I have fond memories of going to St. Jude’s Anglican Church in Carlton, where there was no psychological or spiritual abuse whatsoever (although maybe if I’d come out gay there..it might have been different).
So such congregations do exist….but I just find it near impossible to feel relaxed in any kind of church…just because of how much the pentys screwed my mind up.
I’ve tried going back…but I’m just constantly on alert…(and alarmed).
I don’t think you can put Humpty back together again….and there are certainly plenty of church people willing to give Humpty a bit of a shirtfront behind play.
August 11th, 2006 at 8:14 pm
This might sound a bit “off track” but I’ve been musing about this…
Augustine said something like (in Latin!) “you have made us for yourself, O Lord, and our hearts are restless til they find their rest in you.”
What our hearts are looking for really is God… finding Jesus Himself. Who of course, is paradoxically revealed in the true church… but it’s possible to connect with church and not really be looking for Him in the midst of it all.
Or we can be like the doctor in Detroit and think if we make sacrifices for Jesus our cup will be full… but we can make sacrifices in Christ’s name and miss Him too.
Might our “Christian service” come out of wanting to please others, or wanting to feel like a good person, or wanting to feel successful, or wanting to be likeable to others and ourselves, or guilt, or earning a sense of worthiness… instead of coming from love for Jesus, and a willing response to His loving invitation to us?
These are half formed thoughts guys… but I’m wondering if the seeming simplicty of focusing on the Great Commandment might… what’s the phrase… cover a multitude of sins?
August 11th, 2006 at 8:17 pm
Sorry post this comment in wrong thread. It was supposed to end up hear so. Just repeating myself.
I have just finished reading An Ordinary Man: The True Story behind the Hotel Rwanda by Paul Rusesabagina. It is of course the story of the Rwandan genocide in 1994. However as I was nearing the end I read a passage that describes as “one of the most powerful human urges”. I found it interesting in the light of the discussions here on church and hope it may be somee fodder for further thought. He wrote this in regard of those who joined the killing gangs. It is also interesting to note that Rusesabagina formerly considering Pastoring in the Rwandan SDA and is now dissillusioned by the church. Any way here is his observation.
pg 248
“Something happens to you when you join a group, a feeling I can only describe as freedom. I felt it myself on various soccer teams growing up. I also felt it when I joined the staff ot the Hotel Millie Collines. It is possible to lose oneself in the purpose of the collective effort; we embrace this feeling of being dissolved into something bigger because at our cores we are lonely. We are trapped inside our own skulls. But we thirst for that unity, that lost wholeness that we imagine we had before we where born. That feeling of warm acceptance we get inside a group is addictive; it is one of the most powerful human urges. And when your individuality is dissolved in the will of the pack you then become free to act in anyway the pack directs. The thought of acting otherwise becomes abhorrent as death. We fear the group will withdraw its acceptance from us and we will be cast out and the love will die. We would do almost anything to keep this from happening. Tyrants understand this. They try to point these groups like spears in the direction that serves their aims. If nobody can find it within themselves to stand outside the group and find the inner strength to say no, then the mass of men will easily commit atrocities for the sake of keeping up personal appearances. The lone man is ridiculed and despised, but he is the only one who can stand between humanity and the abyss.”
August 11th, 2006 at 10:00 pm
What a powerful passage… and alarming!
“we embrace this feeling of being dissolved into something bigger because at our cores we are lonely.”
Still on my “musing”… could it be that Jesus could stand alone and lonely and misunderstood by even those closest to him… because He had leanrend to dissolve His life into the Ultimate “Something Bigger”?
August 12th, 2006 at 12:00 am
Good Posts Janet and Grace Required.
Grace, I agree with you.
Recently, I came across some off line comments by a Pastor/theologian with a doctorate who knew the Truth about the tithing doctrine, but when pressed to make a stand - did not make his stand.
Undoubtedly for ‘fear of rocking the boat’.
It is sad when, people place the Group above Truth - Truth ultimately brings freedom.
“I am less impressed by the height of one’s logic, than the depth of one’s conviction”.
August 12th, 2006 at 1:28 am
As far as giving goes… i have been thinking about the negatives of poor people tithing etc. As far as tithing goes, i am with you Lfish - I do not preach it and never have. However, Giving by people who do not have it to give is not wrong as long as they are responding to the Lord and not man’s manipulation. too often tithing is just plain and simple give me the money or you are under a curse (manipulation). Agreed.
However, being poor is not a reason to not give. Jesu said of the woman who gave more by giving two mites, that she was greater in giving because she gave’ From her living” than from her abundance. Sometimes people think “oh, I am short on money and don’t have to do anything” Yet when I am in those situations, that is when God challenges me to give more. It is strictly a faith thing. If you give in Faith though it be small, God is in it. If you give by law - because you are supposed to - it does not count. If you give from your need, not in faith, God is not blessed. Giving is to be by faith. If th eSpirit says tithe, then tithe in faith. But if you have little and he says give ALL, then you should do it in Faith.
August 12th, 2006 at 8:24 am
If you’ll excuse the gender bias translation from Corinthians:
“Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.”
I agree with you akevin… if someone is poor, yet are led by the Spirit to give, and do so out of a response of love and a willing heart, I’m sure they bring joy to God. The “widow’s mite” story is a prophetic challenge to the PD teachers who claim God will bless you and make you rich so that you can give… and that if you give God will make you rich.