But I am a christian

She was heavily pregnant, wore little make up and wore a small silver cross at her neck. We were discussing options for the recovery of a substanial amount of money which she had loaned. As I am accustomed to do, I laid out the different steps that could be taken, the costs and risks involved. But when I came to discuss bankruptcy, she said “I could never bankrupt someone because I am a Christian”. I wondered whether I was in the wrong profession.

But this was just another example of issues of financial management becoming tied up in religion for no good reason. And I see it a lot in my line of work. I could have spoken to her and pointed out that bankruptcy is actually designed as a form of restorative justice - a process which balances the rights of those that are owed money while giving the debtor a chance of a fresh start. It developed as a replacement for the system where hopelessly indebted people would enter into a spiral of prosecution which ended with their being imprisoned until their debts were paid in full. Due to the fact that they were imprisoned, they were unable to earn money to pay these debts and therefore the effective result of financial difficulties was life imprisonment. I could have explained all of this to my client, but I doubt she would have appreciated it.

We all know that religion has a messed up relationship with money in all its forms. Prosperity theology, dodgy teaching on giving, lack of accountability - we have talked about all of these on this site. This week I received an alert to an article about Christian financial counsellors - the debt slayers. We come across these people from time to time. There are the real Christian debt counsellors - the priests and ministers and church leaders who deal straight with us lawyers and counsel their “clients” to be honest and open about your abilities to pay and cooperate to arrange the resolution of the situation (in whatever way) with a minimum of evasion, costs and manipulation. But those saints never advertise or present themselves as financial counsellors. And they are not the focus of this article. Rather, this article is about the ‘other’ kind of Christian financial counsellors:

Dave Ramsey is a fast-talking, in-your-face kind of guy whose tough-love guidance—both in books and over the airwaves from Nashville—connects with a lot of Americans. Every few minutes on his three-hour weekday afternoon radio program, callers who recently paid off massive amounts of credit card obligations scream, “I’m debt-free!”

Although he is overtly Christian, Ramsey resonates with a market beyond the evangelical niche: His show is carried on 272 secular stations. In March, cbs television began filming a pilot for a reality series that will follow Ramsey around the country, helping families conquer overwhelming debt and cut the credit umbilical cord.

“I’ve cried over this stuff, too,” says Ramsey, who established a $4 million real estate portfolio by age 26 and lost it four years later. “I’ve done stupid with zeroes on the end.”

I don’t want to impugn Mr Ramsey’s ministry, but I just don’t see the difference between this and any other financial counselling service. Just what are the Christian principles in relation to debt? I would venture that we are called to be good stewards of our resources (which would mean avoiding waste, consumerism, excessive spending etc). We are called to give sacrificially to others. And we are called to deal honestly with other people (ie that there is a moral aspect to clearing debt and not leaving people in the lurch). But except where you want to justify your tips with a bible verse, I can’t see how the nuts and bolts of Christian financial counselling is any better than the more principled of secular financial counsellors.

So I don’t really think you are getting anything extra from Christian financial counselling than you are from secular financial counselling, except the warm glow that comes from being told that becoming debt free is pleasing to God (in itself a little creepy). But putting such a religious overtone on paying off credit card debt can be profoundly manipulative:

According to Mary Hunt, who says her Debt-Proof Living website attracts more than 8 million monthly hits, multitudes of Christians have curtailed church giving because of overspending.

“People can’t believe it when I tell them they need to tithe and save even if they are deeply in debt,” says Hunt. “Most of them think, I’ll do that when I pay all my bills off.

“A whole bunch of us got all this stuff we really didn’t want with money we really didn’t have to impress people we really didn’t like,” Ramsey says.

And all of it is built around that old chestnut, that God likes us better if we are not in debt. Or, even if we are wealthy. And correspondingly, if we are in financial trouble, then we are not living as God wants us to live. But in order to find this in the Bible, you have to really want to see it:

Most Christian financial leaders acknowledge that debt isn’t called sin in the Bible, but they believe that Scripture discourages debt. They concede that debt is a reality of modern life and even drives the economy, but warn against a lifelong pattern of debt.

“We can’t make a blanket statement that all debt is wrong,” says Blue, author of Master Your Money, now in its 32nd printing. “But it doesn’t make sense to borrow your way to prosperity.”

And it should be no surprise that the ‘typical’ success stories from such counsellors follow the “I paid off my debt and God blessed me with money and success” formula:

Doug and Sherrie Spracklen of Fair Grove, Missouri, are typical beneficiaries. They believe an intensive 13-week Crown Ministries course at Peace Chapel Assembly of God strengthened their marriage and transformed their lives.

Doug, 35, says in his younger years he bought things like a car stereo system and golf clubs, but didn’t have the money to pay for them. His credit card balance further escalated when he started his own insurance business and bought office furnishings and business suits.

Four years into their marriage, the Spracklens had amassed $20,000 in unsecured debt. They had two vehicle payments, an older house that needed repairs, and no equity. They made minimum payments on their credit cards and rolled debt over whenever a zero percent credit offer came along, but those introductory benefits soon expired. The Crown classes helped them devise a plan to get out of debt in two years, just before the birth of the first of their two sons.

Although he always had tithed, the Crown course taught Doug Spracklen to view giving as something more joyful than a mere obligation. Since becoming debt-free, the Spracklens have increased giving to missions, benevolence needs, and savings. He hired three agents, and his business income quadrupled in six years. The Spracklens have purchased 30 acres, but are in no hurry to go into debt by borrowing to build a home.

Want a real Christian attitude to debt and stewardship? Then you are better off going to this guy:

On the other end of the spectrum is the Sarasota, Florida–based Gary Moore, who provides “counsel to spiritual and ethical investors.” He advises the Templeton Foundation and is a board treasurer of Opportunity International, an organization that sees loans as a means of empowerment for the poor. “Small loans,” its website proclaims, “sometimes as little as $50, in the hands of a poor entrepreneur, can transform the lives of individuals, families, and entire communities.” Not surprisingly, then, Moore paints a much different picture than Dayton, Ramsey, Blue, and Hunt.

He argues that Americans are in the top 1 percent of all wage earners in history and that less than 2 percent of Americans have serious credit card debt. Federal Reserve reports indicate that of the households that carry a credit card balance (45 percent of all households), the median amount owed is $1,900. “As the average American lives on $40,000 a year, that’s hardly an economic earthquake,” Moore comments. Only 29 percent of households owe $1,000 or more on their cards, 4 percent owe $10,500 or more, and 1 percent owe $21,400 or more. Moore contends that debt can be empowering rather than enslaving, and that credit is compatible with Christian values.

Or better still, how about we listen to this guy:

Then he said to the crowd, “Don’t be greedy! Owning a lot of things won’t make your life safe.”

16So Jesus told them this story:

A rich man’s farm produced a big crop, 17and he said to himself, “What can I do? I don’t have a place large enough to store everything.”

18Later, he said, “Now I know what I’ll do. I’ll tear down my barns and build bigger ones, where I can store all my grain and other goods. 19Then I’ll say to myself, `You have stored up enough good things to last for years to come. Live it up! Eat, drink, and enjoy yourself.’ ”

20But God said to him, “You fool! Tonight you will die. Then who will get what you have stored up?”

21″This is what happens to people who store up everything for themselves, but are poor in the sight of God.”

Who here really thinks that Jesus would be mad if I borrowed money to give it to the poor?

272 Responses to “But I am a christian”

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  1. 121
    the rev Says:

    Oh and there you have some of Homers hypocrisy, ofcourse he will claim that he didn’t say that, you just can’t read.

    the rev

  2. 122
    Reve Says:

    Point taken,

    I guess i was only speaking from personal experience of the fact that he dosen’t attack homosexuality with me personally but rather biblically & generally. But you’ve pointed out some other stuff.

    Hey, Rev i do BJJ/Submission Grappling as well, through the Machado strain in Sydney. Pretty exhausting stuff, huh?

  3. 123
    Lance Says:

    Homer says…
    There are a lot of people on this blog who have called other writers stupid but I am not one of them!!

    then he says… http://www.signposts.org.au/2005/10/13/god-and-homosexuality/#comment-139937
    Phil, don’t be completely stupid.

    Well spotted.

  4. 124
    TABY Says:

    good one, andy.

  5. 125
    Greg the explorer Says:

    Hey Reve, I understand that medical science has come up with an ointment that will fix the Machado Strain…that is the disease where boys dressed as japanese girls appear all over your body after grappling with other boys who grapple with other boys who grapple with other boys.

  6. 126
    Bring Back EP at LP Says:

    whoops I did forget that.
    Well I did that once.

    Reve the rev just doesn’t like it he doesn’t understand the goats and the sheep parable even when it is explained by Don Carson.

    Lance is very rude but he acknowledges it.
    That is all right .As long as someone acknowledges they are rude!

  7. 127
    James Says:

    Sorry Greg, but youre just gonna havta be brave :)

  8. 128
    TABY Says:

    and you’re sinfully proud and haughty, homer.

    That is all right as long as somone acknowledges that you’re proud and haughty….

  9. 129
    Bring Back EP at LP Says:

    Just as I was afraid Taby does possess Lance’s biblical understanding.

    Look it up Taby.

    It is in the O/T. Tell me the one thing that determines proud and haughty people?

  10. 130
    Reve Says:

    Good Gosh Greg!, #125

    When will they create a cure for what YOU’VE got?

    Not sure which dojo you attend or have heard of but where i go we learn to choke people to unconsciousness & break their bones.

    We have a motto “No Air, No Attitude” the theory being that when you’re fighting for breath & you feel like you might die, you don’t tend to make diminishing, feminising comments about people who could kick your arse.

    But i’m sure you were just joking.

  11. 131
    cheryl Says:

    Homer and James, i’m wondering what does distinguish your comments from the pharisees that Jesus speaks against in the NT? i ask that not as a criticism, or a rhetorical question - i’m honestly wanting to understand the difference.

  12. 132
    the rev Says:

    homers take is that Pharisees aren’t Christians so he couldn’t possibly be one. Thats a good one.

    Homer don’t make me pull back up your nonsensical posts again, cause I will.

    the rev

  13. 133
    Reve Says:

    Hey Greg,

    Only kidding before (i know you were, too)

    All just jokes & senseless humour.

    I’m just reading your posts across on the “God & Homosexuality” thread. Some great points there.

  14. 134
    Bring Back EP at LP Says:

    Janet, take a good read of the first half of John’s gospel.
    Jesus NEVER criticises people for loving the law however his main beef is that the pharisees enabled people to break the law whilst believing they were upholding the law.
    It is an unfortunate fact that almost every person who has accused me of being a pharisee didn’t understand the concept and ironically were a pharisee themselves.
    Lance being the most obvious person.

    Taking a previous point from Rev the pharisees were quite sincere in their beliefs but they were wrong indeed heretics.

    Unfortunately neither rev nor Bec would say anything.
    fortunately for us Jesus did.

  15. 135
    cheryl Says:

    i think maybe that comment was in response to me, homer?

    did Jesus ever criticise anyone for loving others too much, or for not standing in judgement of others?

  16. 136
    Bring Back EP at LP Says:

    Indeed it was Cheryl.

    You are mistaking judgment of others with correct teaching.

    Jesus actually told some pharisees they were going to hell!!

    Church discipline is important as is edification of brothers and sisters at church.
    Neither can be done if people are mute regarding what God tells us.

    you are implying one would say nothing about heresy yet false teaching is a constant theme throughout the N/T.

  17. 137
    Greg the explorer Says:

    Reve - I never make rude remarks to peopole who can kick my arse - hence I never tell the rev that I hate his guts and I will always treat you with the respect you deserve…unles I can tyhink of something funny to say! Of course I was joking - my primary point was teh Machado strain and the japanese girls - get it Machado -Michado - ahhh…never mind

  18. 138
    bec Says:

    Homer, are you a fan of Bonhoeffer?

  19. 139
    the rev Says:

    So Homer, I wouldn’t say anything?

    Didn’t I say plenty to you? So why do you think I wouldn’t say anything to other pharisees?

    Reve, I am a brown belt and train under John Will at Dominance so we are team mates.

    the rev

  20. 140
    Bring Back EP at LP Says:

    Thank you rev for confirming my remarks.

    Yes Bec that are parts to Bonhoeffer to admire.Standing up for Christ against Hitler being the obvious one

  21. 141
    the rev Says:

    No homer thank you

    the rev

  22. 142
    Greg the explorer Says:

    Gees you talk crap homer

  23. 143
    the rev Says:

    homer,

    you are a heretic, you teach law without love, your fruits are meanspirtedness and pride rather than peace, patience, gentleness, kindness.

    Funny I probably come closer to your theology than most of the people on this board, yet I would rather be theologically off, than practically off. Jesus told the pharisees that He desired compassion rather than religion, but he probably didn’t mean that did he?

    the rev

    see, I confront sin when I see it. I also talk to people in my own church about sexual sin, I confront materialism as the false idol mammon, and I even confess my own sins, which often include pride. See Homer, it isn’t hard. I struggle with pride, and God needs to make me humble. Try it Homer, it won’t kill you.

  24. 144
    kevin Says:

    Humility…ah yes, one of my BEST qualities. :)

  25. 145
    kevin Says:

    Isn’t mammon a word for breasts?

  26. 146
    bec Says:

    Homer - p’raps you should refresh your memory as to what Bonhoeffer said about the point of the stories about the Pharisees.

  27. 147
    Bring Back EP at LP Says:

    I would like to thank greg for his erudite message.

    I have no idea of where you are coming from rev.

    I have always said we all come from the same background namely of sin.
    I have never said anyone is better than others indeed quite the opposite.
    There are only two types of people repentant sinful people and unrepentant sinners.
    The former group came to that conclusion through grace not through their own efforts.
    The latter merely reject God just as we used to. This is why we evangelise.

    There is no such thing as being a better christian indeed if you are thinking that you had better change awfully quick.
    See Romans 2 for evidence!

  28. 148
    Grace Required Says:

    Rev,

    I think I disagree with you about Homer. I think he does teach from love just that many here disagree with him and his unmovable stance. And for that I have to admit a kind of admiration. Despite that it sometimes gets up my nose.

  29. 149
    the rev Says:

    Homer, just say it

    I am a proud and haughty man, and I need God’s forgiveness.

    Oh, and make no mistake there are better Christians. Paul says so when he calls leader to a higher degree of accountability. There are many people that just get by, and they will still go to heaven, they are still God’s children. But there are some that actually lay down their lives, love the loveless, and care for the oppressed. Like Paul said, they are worthy of double honour.

    Grace, I think you are wrong

    the rev

  30. 150
    Bring Back EP at LP Says:

    please rev don’t do a lance.

    you really should understand what a proud and haughty man means in biblical terms. Use it correctly.
    If you think I am rejecting God then say so openly and how.

    Teachers do indeed have higher standards to be judged by but this does not make them better Christians.
    They are God’s watchmen.

    There is no greater love than giving people the gospel other they are bound for Hell

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