But I am a christian
She was heavily pregnant, wore little make up and wore a small silver cross at her neck. We were discussing options for the recovery of a substanial amount of money which she had loaned. As I am accustomed to do, I laid out the different steps that could be taken, the costs and risks involved. But when I came to discuss bankruptcy, she said “I could never bankrupt someone because I am a Christian”. I wondered whether I was in the wrong profession.
But this was just another example of issues of financial management becoming tied up in religion for no good reason. And I see it a lot in my line of work. I could have spoken to her and pointed out that bankruptcy is actually designed as a form of restorative justice - a process which balances the rights of those that are owed money while giving the debtor a chance of a fresh start. It developed as a replacement for the system where hopelessly indebted people would enter into a spiral of prosecution which ended with their being imprisoned until their debts were paid in full. Due to the fact that they were imprisoned, they were unable to earn money to pay these debts and therefore the effective result of financial difficulties was life imprisonment. I could have explained all of this to my client, but I doubt she would have appreciated it.
We all know that religion has a messed up relationship with money in all its forms. Prosperity theology, dodgy teaching on giving, lack of accountability - we have talked about all of these on this site. This week I received an alert to an article about Christian financial counsellors - the debt slayers. We come across these people from time to time. There are the real Christian debt counsellors - the priests and ministers and church leaders who deal straight with us lawyers and counsel their “clients” to be honest and open about your abilities to pay and cooperate to arrange the resolution of the situation (in whatever way) with a minimum of evasion, costs and manipulation. But those saints never advertise or present themselves as financial counsellors. And they are not the focus of this article. Rather, this article is about the ‘other’ kind of Christian financial counsellors:
Dave Ramsey is a fast-talking, in-your-face kind of guy whose tough-love guidance—both in books and over the airwaves from Nashville—connects with a lot of Americans. Every few minutes on his three-hour weekday afternoon radio program, callers who recently paid off massive amounts of credit card obligations scream, “I’m debt-free!”
Although he is overtly Christian, Ramsey resonates with a market beyond the evangelical niche: His show is carried on 272 secular stations. In March, cbs television began filming a pilot for a reality series that will follow Ramsey around the country, helping families conquer overwhelming debt and cut the credit umbilical cord.
“I’ve cried over this stuff, too,” says Ramsey, who established a $4 million real estate portfolio by age 26 and lost it four years later. “I’ve done stupid with zeroes on the end.”
I don’t want to impugn Mr Ramsey’s ministry, but I just don’t see the difference between this and any other financial counselling service. Just what are the Christian principles in relation to debt? I would venture that we are called to be good stewards of our resources (which would mean avoiding waste, consumerism, excessive spending etc). We are called to give sacrificially to others. And we are called to deal honestly with other people (ie that there is a moral aspect to clearing debt and not leaving people in the lurch). But except where you want to justify your tips with a bible verse, I can’t see how the nuts and bolts of Christian financial counselling is any better than the more principled of secular financial counsellors.
So I don’t really think you are getting anything extra from Christian financial counselling than you are from secular financial counselling, except the warm glow that comes from being told that becoming debt free is pleasing to God (in itself a little creepy). But putting such a religious overtone on paying off credit card debt can be profoundly manipulative:
According to Mary Hunt, who says her Debt-Proof Living website attracts more than 8 million monthly hits, multitudes of Christians have curtailed church giving because of overspending.
“People can’t believe it when I tell them they need to tithe and save even if they are deeply in debt,” says Hunt. “Most of them think, I’ll do that when I pay all my bills off.“
“A whole bunch of us got all this stuff we really didn’t want with money we really didn’t have to impress people we really didn’t like,” Ramsey says.
And all of it is built around that old chestnut, that God likes us better if we are not in debt. Or, even if we are wealthy. And correspondingly, if we are in financial trouble, then we are not living as God wants us to live. But in order to find this in the Bible, you have to really want to see it:
Most Christian financial leaders acknowledge that debt isn’t called sin in the Bible, but they believe that Scripture discourages debt. They concede that debt is a reality of modern life and even drives the economy, but warn against a lifelong pattern of debt.
“We can’t make a blanket statement that all debt is wrong,” says Blue, author of Master Your Money, now in its 32nd printing. “But it doesn’t make sense to borrow your way to prosperity.”
And it should be no surprise that the ‘typical’ success stories from such counsellors follow the “I paid off my debt and God blessed me with money and success” formula:
Doug and Sherrie Spracklen of Fair Grove, Missouri, are typical beneficiaries. They believe an intensive 13-week Crown Ministries course at Peace Chapel Assembly of God strengthened their marriage and transformed their lives.
Doug, 35, says in his younger years he bought things like a car stereo system and golf clubs, but didn’t have the money to pay for them. His credit card balance further escalated when he started his own insurance business and bought office furnishings and business suits.
Four years into their marriage, the Spracklens had amassed $20,000 in unsecured debt. They had two vehicle payments, an older house that needed repairs, and no equity. They made minimum payments on their credit cards and rolled debt over whenever a zero percent credit offer came along, but those introductory benefits soon expired. The Crown classes helped them devise a plan to get out of debt in two years, just before the birth of the first of their two sons.
Although he always had tithed, the Crown course taught Doug Spracklen to view giving as something more joyful than a mere obligation. Since becoming debt-free, the Spracklens have increased giving to missions, benevolence needs, and savings. He hired three agents, and his business income quadrupled in six years. The Spracklens have purchased 30 acres, but are in no hurry to go into debt by borrowing to build a home.
Want a real Christian attitude to debt and stewardship? Then you are better off going to this guy:
On the other end of the spectrum is the Sarasota, Florida–based Gary Moore, who provides “counsel to spiritual and ethical investors.” He advises the Templeton Foundation and is a board treasurer of Opportunity International, an organization that sees loans as a means of empowerment for the poor. “Small loans,” its website proclaims, “sometimes as little as $50, in the hands of a poor entrepreneur, can transform the lives of individuals, families, and entire communities.” Not surprisingly, then, Moore paints a much different picture than Dayton, Ramsey, Blue, and Hunt.
He argues that Americans are in the top 1 percent of all wage earners in history and that less than 2 percent of Americans have serious credit card debt. Federal Reserve reports indicate that of the households that carry a credit card balance (45 percent of all households), the median amount owed is $1,900. “As the average American lives on $40,000 a year, that’s hardly an economic earthquake,” Moore comments. Only 29 percent of households owe $1,000 or more on their cards, 4 percent owe $10,500 or more, and 1 percent owe $21,400 or more. Moore contends that debt can be empowering rather than enslaving, and that credit is compatible with Christian values.
Or better still, how about we listen to this guy:
Then he said to the crowd, “Don’t be greedy! Owning a lot of things won’t make your life safe.”
16So Jesus told them this story:
A rich man’s farm produced a big crop, 17and he said to himself, “What can I do? I don’t have a place large enough to store everything.”
18Later, he said, “Now I know what I’ll do. I’ll tear down my barns and build bigger ones, where I can store all my grain and other goods. 19Then I’ll say to myself, `You have stored up enough good things to last for years to come. Live it up! Eat, drink, and enjoy yourself.’ ”
20But God said to him, “You fool! Tonight you will die. Then who will get what you have stored up?”
21″This is what happens to people who store up everything for themselves, but are poor in the sight of God.”
Who here really thinks that Jesus would be mad if I borrowed money to give it to the poor?
June 1st, 2006 at 1:32 pm
actually, there is no greater love than to lay down your life for another person.
there’s a world of difference between the two.
June 1st, 2006 at 1:39 pm
that involves sacrifice rather than just a big mouth. And the gospel according to Jesus Homer is “repent for the kingdom of God is here” Which is alot different to, you are going to hell. The gospel is to be lived Homer not talked about.
Why can’t you ever admit to being wrong, or to a specific sin Homer?
the rev
June 1st, 2006 at 1:45 pm
rev said the gospel according to Jesus Homer
Who is this Jesus Homer you speak of?
June 1st, 2006 at 1:46 pm
shut up Greg
June 1st, 2006 at 2:02 pm
I need to see a smiley face when you speak to me like that…don;t make me go bruce lee all over your melbourne ass!
June 1st, 2006 at 2:32 pm
homer….
you said:
you really should understand what a proud and haughty man means in biblical terms. Use it correctly.
As the old saying goes, it takes one to know one.
So, EP…..why don’t you enlighten us all? Help us to understand what a proud and haughty man is….
oh, what am I saying? By carefully studying your posts and your interactions with others, we should know exactly what proud and haughty constitutes. Arrogance is your greatest strength, but sadly, your greatest flaw.
I would suspect that your refusal to repent of this sin places you on level ground with other sinners OMG (except for Homosexuals, of course, since Homosexuality is not a sin).
Why, oh why do I continue to engage the brick wall known as EP (lovingly, as homer)? We all know that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Perhaps it is that small glimmer of hope or my mustard seed of faith that God really does change hearts. Then again, maybe I’m just insane.
Anyways, cheers homer!
yeah, yeah, yeah…….I know……..1Cor5……blah, blah, blah……..
homer, do you have any REAL friends? For some unknown reason (probably the second beer I’m drinking) I really feel sorry for you tonight…..it is night time in America by the way…….I just really pity you.
If you’re anything in real life like you are on this blog, I can’t imagine you have many close, intimate, loving, honest relationships. And that’s really, really sad.
Homer, I know you won’t understand this, and will likely even take offense (because you don’t understand), but I think people like you require even more of God’s grace……being so messed up, as you are. You are not unlike Saul before he became Paul. How sad, though, if you never experience that same damascus road transformation.
God’s grace to you, EP…….you crazy old man.
June 1st, 2006 at 2:36 pm
Ok I need to correct what I said. I think he [Homer] teaches from what he feels is Love. Which he expressed so eloquently himself #150.
That being said I agree with Cheryl
actually, there is no greater love than to lay down your life for another person.
there’s a world of difference between the two
June 1st, 2006 at 2:58 pm
Rev,
you squib it yet again.
Taby, I wouldn’t put a lot of hope in Daniel Helminak’s gay theology theory.
It has holes in it as I will show next week.
June 1st, 2006 at 3:12 pm
Who’s Daniel Helminak?
oooh, the suspense builds as EP prepares his big presentation for next week!
What? Another slanderous production condemning all gays to the lake of fire?? Oh, please…..that’s so over done. Can’t you be more original (like Jesus) and give us something that turns the world upside down?! Something along the lines of GRACE….. or…..MERCY……or…..JUSTICE……
You know, something that truly moves the heart of God rather than something that just gives Him heartburn?
What am I saying…..of course you don’t know.
If nothing else, homer, you are consistent.
June 1st, 2006 at 3:16 pm
Eh, homer….
Would you, by definition, consider yourself a Troll? Or do you engage in Troll-like behavior? That’s frowned upon, you know, by Phil and Dan…….or is it Dan and Phil…….damn it. It’s impossible to be PC and please everyone these days.
June 1st, 2006 at 3:28 pm
Rev,
you squib it yet again.
Homer, for once I actually don’t understand English, what does that mean by chance?
the rev
June 1st, 2006 at 3:35 pm
tell me too!
June 1st, 2006 at 4:48 pm
Shut up rev. Everyone konws what squib means (although I cheated and went to a dictionary:
A small firecracker.
A broken firecracker that burns but does not explode.
A brief satirical or witty writing or speech, such as a lampoon.
A short, sometimes humorous piece in a newspaper or magazine, usually used as a filler.
Homer, to which of these were you refering with regards the rev?
June 1st, 2006 at 5:09 pm
In my conscise Oxford, it is also:
US football… Kick (the ball) a comparatively short distance on a kick off, execute a kick in this way
June 1st, 2006 at 5:23 pm
Homer, it appears to me that what frustrates people the most about you is not so much your theology, which I think people can agree to disagree on, but your dogmatic approach and refusal to ever consider the possibility that your interpretation could be wrong, or your refusal to ever admit any fault or mistake in anything.
Post #126 where you said “whoops” is the closest I have ever heard you saying sorry for something. It would have done your character and credibility a huge boost to just have said, “sorry guys, I was wrong on that one”.
I think people are just frustrated by your stubbornness more than anything else. This can be a positive and a negative quality. It is not always a bad thing, but can be a difficult quality to manage well.
Would you say that you have stubborn tendencies? I know I can be stubborn sometimes - which is sometimes positive, but sometimes hurts people too.
June 1st, 2006 at 6:06 pm
That is correct Wayne, but I think what bothers me most or atleast as much as that is his condescending attitude. He illustrates this be telling people they obviously can’t read, that if they don’t understand the obvious truth of his arguement then they are beyond help, or my favorite telling them to read the bible (without ofcourse ever considering that we did infact read the bible, some of us many times, even looking up the greek words and consulting commentaries and just came up with a different interpretation than his, which ofcourse would then by default be the wrong interpretation).
the rev
June 1st, 2006 at 6:18 pm
squibbed it , dogged it, ducked it etal.
Rev had the opportunity to show us how useful his theological education was but he didn’t except for the declaration that I am gong to hell so obviously rev is Jesus!
taby he is a person who produced almost the exact argument you pt up mate. Very easy for people to check.
Unfortunately not a great scholar but that can wait.
Wayne, no there is a deep divide between evangelicals and liberals.
reminds me of the pharisees. they kept on thinking they could get to Heaven by their own means yet they still kept on with the sin offerings.
A big disconnect.
notice how there is a close correlation between a person being a very tolerant liberal and being able to use gutter language on people!!
June 1st, 2006 at 6:27 pm
Homer, I never said you were going to hell can you show me where I said that?
I said you were a heretic, because I believe your theology and practice has to be orthodox and your practice is not. That guy James, towards the end of the bible, he says the same thing.
Can you explain how when people say they are sinners, and need Jesus grace to be saved, that then means they are pharisees. And you who never admit to sinning, though you say you are a sinner you never admit actually sinning, and then say that because you believe the right things are not? Sounds like the passage where Jesus tells us about two men, one who kneels and thanks God that he isn’t a sinner like those other people. And the other who can’t even raise his eyes to heaven and says, “have mercy on me Lord, a sinner”. Um Homer, you aren’t the good one in this story.
the rev
June 1st, 2006 at 9:07 pm
Homer no-one is going to Hell anyway…
Rev certainly didn’t say you were and the bible certainly doesn’t say anything about literal torment in literal flame.
God is love Homer, what possible need would he have to cook up a human bbq? Anyway, how can literal flame burn a resurrected spiritual being?
I know we’ve discussed this before but I just see this word Hell popping up again and again and I’m sorry in advance but it really bothers me.
WIGGY
June 1st, 2006 at 11:16 pm
Homer are you ever going to respond to my post over on that thread where you were goading me about my lack of theological education?
June 2nd, 2006 at 8:20 am
Homer, Hi!
You make a distinction between evangelical and liberal. But there’s also a divide between the evangelical who is loving and the evangelical who is not. And I don’t buy the lie that love is pointing the finger and telling someone they’re on the way to hell. To me, love and truth go hand in hand.
June 2nd, 2006 at 8:26 am
A quote from a wise Swedish lady, Margaretha Melin:
There is only one thing you need to judge with regards to others, and that is on which kind of relationship you yourself can have with them.
June 2nd, 2006 at 10:33 am
PCG,
I don’t recall doing that but I do recall Jesus doing that.
Bec,
I do not goad anyone period.
If you are on about your belief that God allows other Gods but they need to be beneath him re-read Hosea 1:2 or look up detestable in both Jeremiah and Ezekiel.
The other belief that Abram and Melchizidech were two cult leaders should be dismissed merely be reading each passage concerning Melchizedek, (Genesis, Psalms & Hebrews).
rev,
where do I start,
You assert I deny I sin. Where is the evidence?
‘Can you explain how when people say they are sinners, and need Jesus grace to be saved, that then means they are pharisees”.
Since I didn’t say this I don’t have to respond.
I have regularly admitted I sin, like every other person here I sin every day.
Again your assertion is without foundation.
kinds ironic that YOU believe there a Christians better than others and I don’t yet you say sorry imply I am better than others.
What is that about the pot?
Piask that has a lot of applicability to 1 Cor 5
June 2nd, 2006 at 10:38 am
what you wrote:
Homer, Hi!
You make a distinction between evangelical and liberal. But there’s also a divide between the evangelical who is loving and the evangelical who is not. And I don’t buy the lie that love is pointing the finger and telling someone they’re on the way to hell. To me, love and truth go hand in hand.
What homer read:
Homer,
blah blah blah blah blah blah LIBERAL blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah WHO IS blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ON THE WAY TO HELL, blah TRUTH blah blah blah.
the rev
June 2nd, 2006 at 10:40 am
Homers logic:
All Christians are equal there are no better Christians, you either are one or you aren’t one.
Who are Christians then?
Everyone that agrees with Homer, everyone else is going to hell.
Makes perfect sense. Thanks Homer.
the rev
June 2nd, 2006 at 10:48 am
Homer you make me so :angry:
June 2nd, 2006 at 10:49 am
:frown:
June 2nd, 2006 at 10:58 am
rev,
I do believe you are doing exactly what you accuse me of!
Greg, explain please
June 2nd, 2006 at 11:07 am
No Homer, I believe you are going to heaven, I believe that you are doctrinally a bit conservative, but not far off from what I believe. I believe you are stuck in a religious quagmire and haven’t learned to let love flow out of you, atleast not while typing.
the rev
June 2nd, 2006 at 11:17 am
That wasn’t what I meant but never mind.
I am not doctrinally a bit conservative more like a helluva a bit conservative!