But I am a christian
She was heavily pregnant, wore little make up and wore a small silver cross at her neck. We were discussing options for the recovery of a substanial amount of money which she had loaned. As I am accustomed to do, I laid out the different steps that could be taken, the costs and risks involved. But when I came to discuss bankruptcy, she said “I could never bankrupt someone because I am a Christian”. I wondered whether I was in the wrong profession.
But this was just another example of issues of financial management becoming tied up in religion for no good reason. And I see it a lot in my line of work. I could have spoken to her and pointed out that bankruptcy is actually designed as a form of restorative justice - a process which balances the rights of those that are owed money while giving the debtor a chance of a fresh start. It developed as a replacement for the system where hopelessly indebted people would enter into a spiral of prosecution which ended with their being imprisoned until their debts were paid in full. Due to the fact that they were imprisoned, they were unable to earn money to pay these debts and therefore the effective result of financial difficulties was life imprisonment. I could have explained all of this to my client, but I doubt she would have appreciated it.
We all know that religion has a messed up relationship with money in all its forms. Prosperity theology, dodgy teaching on giving, lack of accountability - we have talked about all of these on this site. This week I received an alert to an article about Christian financial counsellors - the debt slayers. We come across these people from time to time. There are the real Christian debt counsellors - the priests and ministers and church leaders who deal straight with us lawyers and counsel their “clients” to be honest and open about your abilities to pay and cooperate to arrange the resolution of the situation (in whatever way) with a minimum of evasion, costs and manipulation. But those saints never advertise or present themselves as financial counsellors. And they are not the focus of this article. Rather, this article is about the ‘other’ kind of Christian financial counsellors:
Dave Ramsey is a fast-talking, in-your-face kind of guy whose tough-love guidance—both in books and over the airwaves from Nashville—connects with a lot of Americans. Every few minutes on his three-hour weekday afternoon radio program, callers who recently paid off massive amounts of credit card obligations scream, “I’m debt-free!”
Although he is overtly Christian, Ramsey resonates with a market beyond the evangelical niche: His show is carried on 272 secular stations. In March, cbs television began filming a pilot for a reality series that will follow Ramsey around the country, helping families conquer overwhelming debt and cut the credit umbilical cord.
“I’ve cried over this stuff, too,” says Ramsey, who established a $4 million real estate portfolio by age 26 and lost it four years later. “I’ve done stupid with zeroes on the end.”
I don’t want to impugn Mr Ramsey’s ministry, but I just don’t see the difference between this and any other financial counselling service. Just what are the Christian principles in relation to debt? I would venture that we are called to be good stewards of our resources (which would mean avoiding waste, consumerism, excessive spending etc). We are called to give sacrificially to others. And we are called to deal honestly with other people (ie that there is a moral aspect to clearing debt and not leaving people in the lurch). But except where you want to justify your tips with a bible verse, I can’t see how the nuts and bolts of Christian financial counselling is any better than the more principled of secular financial counsellors.
So I don’t really think you are getting anything extra from Christian financial counselling than you are from secular financial counselling, except the warm glow that comes from being told that becoming debt free is pleasing to God (in itself a little creepy). But putting such a religious overtone on paying off credit card debt can be profoundly manipulative:
According to Mary Hunt, who says her Debt-Proof Living website attracts more than 8 million monthly hits, multitudes of Christians have curtailed church giving because of overspending.
“People can’t believe it when I tell them they need to tithe and save even if they are deeply in debt,” says Hunt. “Most of them think, I’ll do that when I pay all my bills off.“
“A whole bunch of us got all this stuff we really didn’t want with money we really didn’t have to impress people we really didn’t like,” Ramsey says.
And all of it is built around that old chestnut, that God likes us better if we are not in debt. Or, even if we are wealthy. And correspondingly, if we are in financial trouble, then we are not living as God wants us to live. But in order to find this in the Bible, you have to really want to see it:
Most Christian financial leaders acknowledge that debt isn’t called sin in the Bible, but they believe that Scripture discourages debt. They concede that debt is a reality of modern life and even drives the economy, but warn against a lifelong pattern of debt.
“We can’t make a blanket statement that all debt is wrong,” says Blue, author of Master Your Money, now in its 32nd printing. “But it doesn’t make sense to borrow your way to prosperity.”
And it should be no surprise that the ‘typical’ success stories from such counsellors follow the “I paid off my debt and God blessed me with money and success” formula:
Doug and Sherrie Spracklen of Fair Grove, Missouri, are typical beneficiaries. They believe an intensive 13-week Crown Ministries course at Peace Chapel Assembly of God strengthened their marriage and transformed their lives.
Doug, 35, says in his younger years he bought things like a car stereo system and golf clubs, but didn’t have the money to pay for them. His credit card balance further escalated when he started his own insurance business and bought office furnishings and business suits.
Four years into their marriage, the Spracklens had amassed $20,000 in unsecured debt. They had two vehicle payments, an older house that needed repairs, and no equity. They made minimum payments on their credit cards and rolled debt over whenever a zero percent credit offer came along, but those introductory benefits soon expired. The Crown classes helped them devise a plan to get out of debt in two years, just before the birth of the first of their two sons.
Although he always had tithed, the Crown course taught Doug Spracklen to view giving as something more joyful than a mere obligation. Since becoming debt-free, the Spracklens have increased giving to missions, benevolence needs, and savings. He hired three agents, and his business income quadrupled in six years. The Spracklens have purchased 30 acres, but are in no hurry to go into debt by borrowing to build a home.
Want a real Christian attitude to debt and stewardship? Then you are better off going to this guy:
On the other end of the spectrum is the Sarasota, Florida–based Gary Moore, who provides “counsel to spiritual and ethical investors.” He advises the Templeton Foundation and is a board treasurer of Opportunity International, an organization that sees loans as a means of empowerment for the poor. “Small loans,” its website proclaims, “sometimes as little as $50, in the hands of a poor entrepreneur, can transform the lives of individuals, families, and entire communities.” Not surprisingly, then, Moore paints a much different picture than Dayton, Ramsey, Blue, and Hunt.
He argues that Americans are in the top 1 percent of all wage earners in history and that less than 2 percent of Americans have serious credit card debt. Federal Reserve reports indicate that of the households that carry a credit card balance (45 percent of all households), the median amount owed is $1,900. “As the average American lives on $40,000 a year, that’s hardly an economic earthquake,” Moore comments. Only 29 percent of households owe $1,000 or more on their cards, 4 percent owe $10,500 or more, and 1 percent owe $21,400 or more. Moore contends that debt can be empowering rather than enslaving, and that credit is compatible with Christian values.
Or better still, how about we listen to this guy:
Then he said to the crowd, “Don’t be greedy! Owning a lot of things won’t make your life safe.”
16So Jesus told them this story:
A rich man’s farm produced a big crop, 17and he said to himself, “What can I do? I don’t have a place large enough to store everything.”
18Later, he said, “Now I know what I’ll do. I’ll tear down my barns and build bigger ones, where I can store all my grain and other goods. 19Then I’ll say to myself, `You have stored up enough good things to last for years to come. Live it up! Eat, drink, and enjoy yourself.’ ”
20But God said to him, “You fool! Tonight you will die. Then who will get what you have stored up?”
21″This is what happens to people who store up everything for themselves, but are poor in the sight of God.”
Who here really thinks that Jesus would be mad if I borrowed money to give it to the poor?
June 2nd, 2006 at 11:21 am
obvious confusion here.
I cannot say someone is going to hell nor can anyone else.
1) only Jesus will judge and only he can view a person’s heart.
2) up until a person dies there is the opportunity for anyone to put their faith in Jesus
One can be walking the path there but we were all until we realised the good news of Jesus
June 2nd, 2006 at 12:53 pm
Now for the test, EP…..
You wrote:
I cannot say someone is going to hell nor can anyone else.
1) only Jesus will judge and only he can view a person’s heart.
2) up until a person dies there is the opportunity for anyone to put their faith in Jesus
I have been very outspoken about the fact that I am a Homosexual and I don’t believe that Homosexuality is a sin.
I also believe in God, the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. I believe that Jesus was/is both man and God. He was born of a virgin birth, lived, and died on the cross for the sins of “many.” On the third day, He rose from the dead. He ascended into heaven to be with the Father and He will return for those that belong to Him. Long ago I placed my faith in His work of redemption on the cross. I believe that my sins have been forgiven and that His blood covers all my sin, both past, present and future. I have accepted and received Christ - - God’s grace and mercy to us, and His sacrifice on the cross for my sins. I am a new creation. And I can testify without reservation that Jesus Christ is Lord.
Now tell me homer…..
am I going to hell?
June 2nd, 2006 at 12:56 pm
Let me guess:
I can’t say, but you are on the path to hell, unless you turn around.
the rev
June 2nd, 2006 at 3:00 pm
I can only answer thus Taby,
you would be treated in the same manner as the man in Corinth.
June 2nd, 2006 at 3:27 pm
ROTFLMAO
June 2nd, 2006 at 3:37 pm
I have regularly admitted I sin, like every other person here I sin every day.
How can you sin every day and be a Christian, Homer?
So according to your definition of being ‘repentent’….you can sin on a particular day…express remorse….and then sin again the next day. How convenient.
Doesn’t sound like repentence to me, according to the definition that you apply to others (namely gays).
So, what was the sin you commited yesterday Homer, and have you stopped doing it/thinking it, or have you commited the same sin today?
June 2nd, 2006 at 3:52 pm
I believe what is at the heart of all this is Homer’s belief that anyone engaging actively in sin is not a true believer.
Look I’m not taking sides but if we consider a few things we can perhaps draw our own conclusions?
For starters Cain - he was a murderer and the first person to actually take anothers life.
And yet right after his dirty deed he has a full blown conversation with God. That should tell you something right there - don’t you think?
“…And Cain talked with his brother Abel. And it happened as they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel, and killed him. And Jehovah said to Cain, Where is your brother Abel?” Genesis 4.8
Homer I think you have this notion that because someone is sinning they are somehow out of fellowship with God.
Is that what you believe?
WIGGY
June 2nd, 2006 at 3:53 pm
Like I have always said Lance, you have never read the bible.
EVERYONE sins every day.
being sinful is/was/will never be the point.
It is whether one repents. One only repents if one believes they have sinned. The man in Corinth didn’t!
One will never understand the O/T if one doesn’t understand this point.
do you or anyone else really believe people were stoned because they may have been adulterous?
Ever wonder why the Jews went to the temple?
Ever wonder why they were buying various animals to sacrifice?
June 2nd, 2006 at 4:05 pm
No Wiggy it is when they do not repent they are out of fellowship.
June 2nd, 2006 at 4:21 pm
No, I think they were stoned becuase the dope was of such good quality back then - and perhaps opnly the adulterous ones knew where to get the really good shit?
Becuase their parents made them?
Now I do konw the answer to this one…cuase they all had the munchies and were looking to barbecue a good feast!
June 2nd, 2006 at 4:26 pm
Have you caught up with Mat 19:4-6 yet Greg?
June 2nd, 2006 at 4:39 pm
Ah…yes…now explain the significance to me…looks interesting
June 2nd, 2006 at 4:42 pm
so is singleness sinful?
June 2nd, 2006 at 4:52 pm
Ahhhhh…it’s becuase God put them together so they shouldn;t ahve done rude things ?????
June 2nd, 2006 at 4:52 pm
Yes it appears that My view that marriage is a God ordained practice has some support and you thesis is devoid of support.
My favourite version also
June 2nd, 2006 at 6:09 pm
LOL @ the rev’s #174
June 2nd, 2006 at 7:21 pm
so homer, if Lance repents of his homoness is he saved?
Lance, just say you are sorry dude, gosh!
the rev
June 2nd, 2006 at 7:22 pm
You don’t have to do it in public, Homer sins all the time but never actually admits doing anything wrong, just some weird mystical sinning. So just whisper a little sorry Jesus, every night and you are in. Wooooo hoooooo.
the rev
June 2nd, 2006 at 8:02 pm
i still want to know whether singleness is sinful.
June 2nd, 2006 at 8:33 pm
rev,
it is actions dear fellow, actions. Lance has aways maintained he has gay ‘attractions’ not any relationships.
Cheryl,
No-one has ever said it was.
June 2nd, 2006 at 8:37 pm
staying single - and wanting to stay single - certainly doesn’t fit with these verses, though.
it’s obvious these verses aren’t the universal rule for all of humanity.
June 2nd, 2006 at 8:51 pm
so lance gets to go to heaven? Wow, so now poofs can get in, what next backslidden Muslims?
the rev
June 2nd, 2006 at 9:22 pm
*parties because Lance is going to heaven!*
June 2nd, 2006 at 10:07 pm
it is actions dear fellow, actions. Lance has aways maintained he has gay ‘attractions’ not any relationships.
So Homer, that means you can be attracted to sin, but not actually sin, and certainly not sin every day….and then you can be a Christian?
P.S. I just realised how pathetic my ‘gay lifestyle’ is…while I was spending my rare Friday night off work looking up how ‘railway signaling’ works (well, I go to work on the train each day….and….well….it’s something that I’ve …kind of……always…ummm……..wondered.)
June 2nd, 2006 at 10:13 pm
Lance said:
P.S. I just realised how pathetic my ‘gay lifestyle’ is…while I was spending my rare Friday night off work looking up how ‘railway signaling’ works (well, I go to work on the train each day….and….well….it’s something that I’ve …kind of……always…ummm……..wondered.)
You’ll have to try harder if you’re going to convert any of us to your “gay lifestyle”. I’m sure that’s your “gay agenda”, isn’t it?
June 2nd, 2006 at 10:27 pm
heck, doesn’t sound very gay to me
not even mildly frivolous. I’m not even a train buff, there’s no way I’m gonna get subverted … I thought being middle aged and married was the boring bit?
June 2nd, 2006 at 10:30 pm
As part of my sad-arse Friday night, I’ve also been looking up world’s longest bridges.
The longest is across Lake Pontchartrain (of Hurricane Katrina fame) at 38 kilometres.
So they could easily build a bridge between Williamstown and St. Kilda across the bay (with a big hump in the middle for the ships to go under)
Not so easy though to build a bridge from Apollo Bay to King Island and then to Tassie..
June 2nd, 2006 at 10:33 pm
and the longest bridge of all is between the head certainty of some people’s theology and the hearts of others, hungry for grace ..
June 2nd, 2006 at 10:36 pm
Such blokey interests you have, Lance. You’re blowing stereotypes out of the water at a rate of knots.
Any idea which long bridge gets used in Hollywood action movies ( MI3, True Lies)? It’s so long you can’t see land anywhere soon.
June 2nd, 2006 at 10:47 pm
Apparently it’s the Seven Mile Bridge in Florida….which…amazingly enough…is 10 kilometres long.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Mile_Bridge
In terms of manly pursuits, part of the reason for me farting around on the net..is I’ve been downloading the audio from a Christian City Church ‘Real Men’ conference…..so I can find out how to be a ‘real man’.
71% downloaded…only another 14MB to go.