But I am a christian
She was heavily pregnant, wore little make up and wore a small silver cross at her neck. We were discussing options for the recovery of a substanial amount of money which she had loaned. As I am accustomed to do, I laid out the different steps that could be taken, the costs and risks involved. But when I came to discuss bankruptcy, she said “I could never bankrupt someone because I am a Christian”. I wondered whether I was in the wrong profession.
But this was just another example of issues of financial management becoming tied up in religion for no good reason. And I see it a lot in my line of work. I could have spoken to her and pointed out that bankruptcy is actually designed as a form of restorative justice - a process which balances the rights of those that are owed money while giving the debtor a chance of a fresh start. It developed as a replacement for the system where hopelessly indebted people would enter into a spiral of prosecution which ended with their being imprisoned until their debts were paid in full. Due to the fact that they were imprisoned, they were unable to earn money to pay these debts and therefore the effective result of financial difficulties was life imprisonment. I could have explained all of this to my client, but I doubt she would have appreciated it.
We all know that religion has a messed up relationship with money in all its forms. Prosperity theology, dodgy teaching on giving, lack of accountability - we have talked about all of these on this site. This week I received an alert to an article about Christian financial counsellors - the debt slayers. We come across these people from time to time. There are the real Christian debt counsellors - the priests and ministers and church leaders who deal straight with us lawyers and counsel their “clients” to be honest and open about your abilities to pay and cooperate to arrange the resolution of the situation (in whatever way) with a minimum of evasion, costs and manipulation. But those saints never advertise or present themselves as financial counsellors. And they are not the focus of this article. Rather, this article is about the ‘other’ kind of Christian financial counsellors:
Dave Ramsey is a fast-talking, in-your-face kind of guy whose tough-love guidance—both in books and over the airwaves from Nashville—connects with a lot of Americans. Every few minutes on his three-hour weekday afternoon radio program, callers who recently paid off massive amounts of credit card obligations scream, “I’m debt-free!”
Although he is overtly Christian, Ramsey resonates with a market beyond the evangelical niche: His show is carried on 272 secular stations. In March, cbs television began filming a pilot for a reality series that will follow Ramsey around the country, helping families conquer overwhelming debt and cut the credit umbilical cord.
“I’ve cried over this stuff, too,” says Ramsey, who established a $4 million real estate portfolio by age 26 and lost it four years later. “I’ve done stupid with zeroes on the end.”
I don’t want to impugn Mr Ramsey’s ministry, but I just don’t see the difference between this and any other financial counselling service. Just what are the Christian principles in relation to debt? I would venture that we are called to be good stewards of our resources (which would mean avoiding waste, consumerism, excessive spending etc). We are called to give sacrificially to others. And we are called to deal honestly with other people (ie that there is a moral aspect to clearing debt and not leaving people in the lurch). But except where you want to justify your tips with a bible verse, I can’t see how the nuts and bolts of Christian financial counselling is any better than the more principled of secular financial counsellors.
So I don’t really think you are getting anything extra from Christian financial counselling than you are from secular financial counselling, except the warm glow that comes from being told that becoming debt free is pleasing to God (in itself a little creepy). But putting such a religious overtone on paying off credit card debt can be profoundly manipulative:
According to Mary Hunt, who says her Debt-Proof Living website attracts more than 8 million monthly hits, multitudes of Christians have curtailed church giving because of overspending.
“People can’t believe it when I tell them they need to tithe and save even if they are deeply in debt,” says Hunt. “Most of them think, I’ll do that when I pay all my bills off.“
“A whole bunch of us got all this stuff we really didn’t want with money we really didn’t have to impress people we really didn’t like,” Ramsey says.
And all of it is built around that old chestnut, that God likes us better if we are not in debt. Or, even if we are wealthy. And correspondingly, if we are in financial trouble, then we are not living as God wants us to live. But in order to find this in the Bible, you have to really want to see it:
Most Christian financial leaders acknowledge that debt isn’t called sin in the Bible, but they believe that Scripture discourages debt. They concede that debt is a reality of modern life and even drives the economy, but warn against a lifelong pattern of debt.
“We can’t make a blanket statement that all debt is wrong,” says Blue, author of Master Your Money, now in its 32nd printing. “But it doesn’t make sense to borrow your way to prosperity.”
And it should be no surprise that the ‘typical’ success stories from such counsellors follow the “I paid off my debt and God blessed me with money and success” formula:
Doug and Sherrie Spracklen of Fair Grove, Missouri, are typical beneficiaries. They believe an intensive 13-week Crown Ministries course at Peace Chapel Assembly of God strengthened their marriage and transformed their lives.
Doug, 35, says in his younger years he bought things like a car stereo system and golf clubs, but didn’t have the money to pay for them. His credit card balance further escalated when he started his own insurance business and bought office furnishings and business suits.
Four years into their marriage, the Spracklens had amassed $20,000 in unsecured debt. They had two vehicle payments, an older house that needed repairs, and no equity. They made minimum payments on their credit cards and rolled debt over whenever a zero percent credit offer came along, but those introductory benefits soon expired. The Crown classes helped them devise a plan to get out of debt in two years, just before the birth of the first of their two sons.
Although he always had tithed, the Crown course taught Doug Spracklen to view giving as something more joyful than a mere obligation. Since becoming debt-free, the Spracklens have increased giving to missions, benevolence needs, and savings. He hired three agents, and his business income quadrupled in six years. The Spracklens have purchased 30 acres, but are in no hurry to go into debt by borrowing to build a home.
Want a real Christian attitude to debt and stewardship? Then you are better off going to this guy:
On the other end of the spectrum is the Sarasota, Florida–based Gary Moore, who provides “counsel to spiritual and ethical investors.” He advises the Templeton Foundation and is a board treasurer of Opportunity International, an organization that sees loans as a means of empowerment for the poor. “Small loans,” its website proclaims, “sometimes as little as $50, in the hands of a poor entrepreneur, can transform the lives of individuals, families, and entire communities.” Not surprisingly, then, Moore paints a much different picture than Dayton, Ramsey, Blue, and Hunt.
He argues that Americans are in the top 1 percent of all wage earners in history and that less than 2 percent of Americans have serious credit card debt. Federal Reserve reports indicate that of the households that carry a credit card balance (45 percent of all households), the median amount owed is $1,900. “As the average American lives on $40,000 a year, that’s hardly an economic earthquake,” Moore comments. Only 29 percent of households owe $1,000 or more on their cards, 4 percent owe $10,500 or more, and 1 percent owe $21,400 or more. Moore contends that debt can be empowering rather than enslaving, and that credit is compatible with Christian values.
Or better still, how about we listen to this guy:
Then he said to the crowd, “Don’t be greedy! Owning a lot of things won’t make your life safe.”
16So Jesus told them this story:
A rich man’s farm produced a big crop, 17and he said to himself, “What can I do? I don’t have a place large enough to store everything.”
18Later, he said, “Now I know what I’ll do. I’ll tear down my barns and build bigger ones, where I can store all my grain and other goods. 19Then I’ll say to myself, `You have stored up enough good things to last for years to come. Live it up! Eat, drink, and enjoy yourself.’ ”
20But God said to him, “You fool! Tonight you will die. Then who will get what you have stored up?”
21″This is what happens to people who store up everything for themselves, but are poor in the sight of God.”
Who here really thinks that Jesus would be mad if I borrowed money to give it to the poor?
June 12th, 2006 at 10:10 pm
Dear oh dear,
I left signposts a while back because the discussion/debate never seemed to stay focused on the topic and certain people seemed set on belittling me and my beliefs as a fellow Christian.
It seems little has changed, we’re back on the “bible vs modern morality” theme.
Aren’t we all brothers and sisters in Christ? Aren’t we all supposed to gather in fellowship to discuss /promote the words of God?
Ata the risk of being censored/vilified, I’ll shout it from the rooftops-“For God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten Son, so that those who believe in him should not perish but have eternal life”. God’s love is unconditional, so is his treatment of sin.
God loves the person, but hates the sins we commit- whether it be adultery, murder, cheating or homosexuality. Are you a worse person to commit homosexual acts than adulterous acts? They are both sinful but, as an example of God’s attitude toward sin, look at Jesus’ words to the adultress;
“where are those who accuse you, is there no one left”?
“no one sir, they are all gone”
“then nor do I accuse you, go, but do not sin again”
I cannot put a gradient on sin BUT, we all sin AND, we all ask/seek forgiveness (hopefully) BUT, if we are sincere, we should repent of the sin (ie stop doing it as Jesus said).
It’s a hard road, but the road to heaven is narrow.
June 13th, 2006 at 2:13 am
God loves the person, but hates the sins we commit- whether it be adultery, murder, cheating or homosexuality. Are you a worse person to commit homosexual acts than adulterous acts? They are both sinful
That’s your opinion and your interpretation of the Bible, quietriot. Stop trying to impose it on me and the rest of the world (like every other freakin’ homophobic hetero in the church).
Thank you very much…..but as far as I’m concerned, Homosexuality is not a sin.
Feel free to construct life-principles based upon your understanding and interpretation of the Bible, but don’t expect me or anyone else to live according to those standards.
June 13th, 2006 at 8:41 am
I’m not “constructing life principles”, I didn’t write the book, God did. If you want to argue, take it up with Him. Did I sound like I’m “gay bashing”, I hope not. I’m one of those who Jesus challenged to throw the first stone-I can’t, because I’m also a sinner, but I’m doing the best I can to repent.
yours sincerly
a politically incorrect but biblically correct
Quietriot
June 13th, 2006 at 11:16 am
Taby,
I don’t agree with you but if that is the conclusion that you have to, good luck to you. I won’t ram my opionion down your throat.
I think rather than people being hung up on one particular sin we all need to realise that we all sin in different ways all day long, some are just more socially acceptable than others, and it is only by God’s abundant and impossible grace that we get to spend eternity with Him.
How can I throw a stone at any one when I feel like Paul, “the worst of all sinners”. How can I throw a stone when all around me fat preachers are preaching (A sin as far as I’m concerned) or Preachers are ripping off congregations and lining their pockets?
We are all as bad as each other and that is the good news!
Why do we Christians spend so much time arguing the minute when we need to be out their loving people? This is how people know we are His disciples…
Just a thought…
June 13th, 2006 at 11:50 am
just one problem with that Neil,
We recognise it is a sin and God certainly does but taby doesn’t even when it is clearly shown his ‘theories’ of why homosexuality isn’t a sin have no substance.
if a person said adultery is not a sin and continued to partake in adultery we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
Why does this only happen becasue it is homosexuality?
June 13th, 2006 at 12:17 pm
I am not trying to sound like I know everything (and that is the point I want to make actually).
I fully believe that it is the Holy Spirit’s job to convict people of sin not mine or anyone else’s. I find, when I look back over my life, that the Holy Spirit has been quite gentle with me and not made a big deal of what, in retrospect, were obvious sins, because He had bigger fish to fry with me. He had things He wanted to do in me first. Later on He has dealt with so many other obvious sins in my life.
As I sit here now, I wonder how many things the Holy Spirit will point out to me over this next 12 months as He slowly perfects me.
I don’t agree with Taby.
I have been wrong in the past and I will be wrong in the future. God has given me grace and I have the grace to give others. I have enough grace for you EP and Taby and even Lance because God has enough grace to love me.
Does that make any sense?
June 13th, 2006 at 12:18 pm
Besides Taby can youse scripture to back up his argument:
“I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me!”
June 13th, 2006 at 12:51 pm
Neil, The Holy spirit convicts us of our sin.
We know we sin. We do not deny it.
Why is homosexuality the only sin which people try to attempt to sat is not sinful despite the Bible being black and white on the subject.
There is a MILE of difference between a person who stumbles with regard to homosexuality recognises they have sinned and repent and people who don’t.
Indeed it is EXACTLY the same for any sin.
Why is homosexuality any different?
It is simply because people do not wish to offend worldly views and are ashamed of Godly views.
June 13th, 2006 at 1:22 pm
Hmm EP,
I am not sure what “Godly views” are and in regard to offending “Worldly views” I usually try to say it as I see it.
Be that as it may, Do you really think that you have any hope at all of helping Taby see his position and then repenting? All an argument does is reinforce a persons position. I find it best to do what God called us to do….Love one another! Let the Holy Spirit do His job!
I have enough sin in my own life to worry about!
June 13th, 2006 at 2:46 pm
That is exactly the point.
We acknowledge it.
I simply make the point.
In any of these ‘debates’ cross out homosexuality and insert adultery.
If anyone made those claims everyone and anyone would simply say the claims are ludicrous.
June 13th, 2006 at 2:52 pm
I just love being the topic of conversation…..
How interesting that hetero’s want to pass the time by talking about gays (by the way, guys, we don’t pass the time talking about you……we’re so over you).
Neil, you don’t HAVE to agree with me. I don’t give a rat’s ass. It’s my life and my eternity and my relationship with God (not yours). You don’t know me. You don’t know my walk with God. Hey Neil, guess what? You’re not God! Don’t sweat it. You don’t have to decide whether or not I enter the pearly gates or go straight to Hell (as EP would like).
EP…..bite me. You are such a hate monger. You stir up division, prejudice, hatred, bigotry, confusion. You really get on my nerves….”brother.”
I cannot get over the fact that the majority of you crazy, freakin’, nut-job heterosexuals are soooooooooo fuckin’ sure of what the bible has to say about homosexuality. You are soooooooo damn convinced that you know exactly what the bible says and you are sooooooo sure that you know the heart of God on the matter. Hummmm. No. I really don’t think so.
You’ve not done your homework. You’ve not learned your Hebrew. You’ve not learned your Greek. You’ve not gotten past your programing……everything you’ve heard and been taught about homosexuality since you were just a child. I have no tolerance for some of you “half-wits.” You actually believe what you believe because you made the mistake of buying a crappy, flawed NIV version of the bible.
EP….you really need to take a break on this whole homo-crusade you’re on. You’re becoming a “fag-hag” in the worst kind of way.
I’ve said it many times and will say it many more:
Homosexuality is not a sin.
(Yes, some homosexual “acts” are sinful, just as some heterosexual “acts” are sinful) but…….
Homosexuality IS NOT A SIN!!!!!!
Why are you freakin’ hetero’s so damn threatened???!!!
Oh, yes…..FEAR. The root of prejudice and bigotry. You fear what you do not understand. You fear that which is not like you.
how weak….how pathetic….how ungodly…..how unlike Jesus.
What a disappointment the “church” continues to be to me and my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.
Sometimes I just wish I could move to another planet, cause you hetero’s are just tooooooooooooo much.
June 13th, 2006 at 2:54 pm
And as a matter of record…..God’s Top Ten doesn’t include Homosexuality as a sin……Adultry, however, does make that list, Homer.
June 13th, 2006 at 3:26 pm
Good for you Taby!
EP, I wouldn’t make the distinction at all. Sin is sin! Your sin is none of my business unless you make it my business.
Taby you are right, It doesn’t make the top ten! Me, I try to live by Jesus top two. Love God! Love people!
I really don’t understand why you would want to define yourself by one aspect of your life though. Is it really that important?
By the way Taby, you don’t know me or my relationship with God either.
I hope you find some peace in yourself brother, I really do. You seem so Angry!
All the best for a great life!
June 13th, 2006 at 3:49 pm
Taby is totally incorrect as there is no top ten!
As has been shown previously his pet theory on homosexuality was blown up in flames!
Neil,
you are totally wrong as 1 Cor 5 makes it clear unrepentant sin is everyone’s business in the church.
It is funny that the very people who allege people hate people are usually the very people who use foul and abusive language.
June 13th, 2006 at 3:58 pm
Neil,
If you cannot empathize or understand why I might be angry……then I really don’t know what to say. Obviously, you’ve never been the object of attack, prejudice, bigotry or hatred.
And EP, why don’t you consider the Ten Commandments to be God’s Top Ten? What do you consider them to be? Just suggestions?
And, when, Homer was my “pet” theory blown up in flames?
You are a pimple on the ass of humanity.
June 13th, 2006 at 4:03 pm
EP…..you’re totally wrong. You’re totally incorrect.
Homosexuality is not a sin.
I Corinthians 5 is a cry baby verse. Is your entire faith built upon this alone - - - your justification for judging and condemning your brothers and sisters…….probably just so you won’t feel so bad about your own sin. You have to tear others down to feel better about your own wretched self.
June 13th, 2006 at 4:35 pm
Homer, are you one of those “the Old Testament is irrelevant now” people? Surely you are better read than that…
Neil says:
“I really don’t understand why you would want to define yourself by one aspect of your life though. Is it really that important?”
Uh, Neil - it ain’t Taby defining himself by one aspect of his life. It’s people like Homer. No wonder he’s angry.
Neil, I assume you’re straight. Picture this for a moment: Picture knowing that so many people will hate you if they find out you like women. Picturing knowing that your parents will, at best, feel sorry for you. Picture trying really hard to date guys - you hold their hands, you kiss them, and you throw up in the toilets afterwards, because you feel so dirty and filthy, and you’re full of hate for who you are. Picture crying yourself to sleep every night because now you know you’ll be unlikely to ever have the kids you always dreamed of, because society doesn’t let a man and a woman have children. Picture trying to convince yourself that you want to have sex with a woman. Picture yourself in a darkened room, crying out to God and asking God why it had to be you; wondering whether God still loves you.
Now ask yourself this: would you be angry?
TABY, I’m sending you cyber-hugs.
June 13th, 2006 at 4:48 pm
Bec,
yet again your bias shows up yet again.
I would have thought the angry person could at least be shown by the language used and there is only one person whom is shown angry by their language.
by the it is called sticking up for the Gospel.
Taby,
The ten commandments doesn’t show us the top ten sins .
I showed above a complete demolition of your theory which was very very very close to someone else’s theory.
your exegesis of 1 Cor 5 says it all.
June 13th, 2006 at 5:14 pm
Homer, yet alone your inability to get past your bias and actually read someone’s post shows up.
I didn’t deny that TABY was angry (though I don’t know whether he is). I instead attempted to show why he *might* be angry.
The rest of your post doesn’t make a great deal of sense. I simply can’t understand it. I think that there might be words missing. There are also paragraphs missing. I’m sure it all makes sense in your head, but you haven’t managed to get it on to the ‘page’.
BTW, I didn’t express a theological viewpoint, and I don’t intend to wade into that discussion. I merely asked you a question. I note that, as usual, you have failed to answer that question.
June 13th, 2006 at 5:33 pm
That is obvious of course it isn’t irrelevant.
Jesus didn’t think it was.
June 13th, 2006 at 9:10 pm
EP said We recognise it is a sin and God certainly does but taby doesn’t even when it is clearly shown his ‘theories’ of why homosexuality isn’t a sin have no substance.
I used to think the Bible was clear on this. That’s because I relied on English translations. I haven’t changed my mind, but I now recognise that earnest Bible-believing Christians differ on the meaning of the Greek and Hebrew texts. So, why don’t we stop saying that it is clear!
Homer, you mentioned that if adultery were being discussed instead of homosexuality, we wouldn’t be having this debate. Perhaps. Perhaps not. But you can’t just insert a different issue, because the Bible speaks of them differently. Also, if we were talking about remarriage following divorce, again, Christians differ.
Homer, I am concerned for you. I hope you’ll allow me to speak frankly as a Christian sister. I don’t know you. I don’t know your heart. I’ve seen glimpses of kindness in you, for which I rejoice. However, I have seen significant unkindness also. In the way that you approach people, you often speak with hatred, not love.
I know that you don’t see it that way. But, if you continue in this unrepentant sin it can only be bad, both for you and for others. I urge you to be prayerful and ask God to convict you on this point.
I understand that others have been harsh and even hateful toward you. I don’t dismiss their wrongs. But, I see in you an unwillingness to see your sin and an unrepentant heart.
Love in Christ.
June 13th, 2006 at 9:42 pm
homer,
you won’t convince us with your admonitions about our stupidity, or your wailing about our lack of faith.
give up on us. leave it to God to do God’s work with us (surely we both agree that God is beyond yours and my power). i promise that i pray, all the time, for God to keep doing God’s work with me… join your prayer with mine.
and if i change to agree with you, celebrate. if i’m not convicted by the Spirit to agree with your way of thinking… leave me to my fate. i have the faith to accept that, whatever it is. i hope you can have the faith to let me accept that.
June 14th, 2006 at 6:37 am
Homer, your post at 260 doesn’t even make any sense. I honestly don’t know what you’re on about a lot of the time.
Homer, I wish you could understand the joy that exists beyond a rule-bound faith, and joy that comes from realising that we know nothing, and that we are completely dependent on God to reveal himself/herself to us.
June 14th, 2006 at 9:24 am
PGP, you say
‘you often speak with hatred, not love.’.
Please show ANY evidence of this. This again highlights the double standards of liberals on this blog.
notice how al of the evanglicals who have spoken out on this topic are not comenting now.
This is because they have been regular and persistent victims of swearing and other abuse which very few people ever say boo about.
also note Jesus made anger the equivalent of murder.
Just who regularly makes angry and abusive remarks towards commenters?
I have yet to hear from even liberal hebrew or greek lecturers who believe this subject is not clear.
Lance usualy brings every excuse one can think of of why homosexuality is not sinful and they are regularly demolished. The Scholarly work is mostly missing in the theories.
Cheryl, a bit of hyperbole I think.
‘you won’t convince us with your admonitions about our stupidity, or your wailing about our lack of faith.’
please show where I have said you were stupid?
Bec,
you ask the question and I answered it.
I have never talked about rule based faith anywhere.
I have said we still live by the law but it provides NO salvation because we brake them every day.
If one doesn’t recognise that then you don’t recognise what faith is about.
I have shown on this thread that Helminiak’s theory on toevah has no legs.
I simply made the point that if we inserted adultery instead of homosexuality there would be no debate.
They are both sinful acts yet people are wishing to deny only one of them.
June 14th, 2006 at 10:56 am
Homer, I will provide that evidence when I get a chance.
For the record, I am an evangelical. Staunch.
June 14th, 2006 at 11:22 am
homer,
I apologise, you haven’t directly said that I am stupid.
the rest of my post stands.
June 14th, 2006 at 1:26 pm
Cheryl,
People can make stupid statements. I do it.
However understanding the bible has nothing to do with intelligence as God tells us.
Paul does not tell the people at Corinth they are stupid but they have to grow.
We are to discern arguments as for example we are constantly told in the N/T to watch out for false teachers.
June 14th, 2006 at 2:49 pm
false teachers like EP
June 14th, 2006 at 2:57 pm
Hey Homer -I’m going to be part of a promotional DVD shoot for the NCLS (National Church Life Survey) next Thursday at the channel 9 studios. You (or anyone else in Sydney) wanna come? just email Ruth Powell at
ruth(dot)powell(at)optusnet(dot)com(dot)au tell her I (Greg Colby) sent you along. I’d actually like to have a coffee with you if you can get there.
June 15th, 2006 at 8:31 am
I am sorry Greg,
firstly I was busy yesterday afternoon so I am slow in answering your invitation and secondly I can only go out at nights in school holidays because of ‘family’ responsibilities.
I can get out during the day and would immensely enjoy a coffee